pre-trib

[lecoop]

I know it is a novel idea, but why not just leave John's chronology alone, as he wrote it? What is wrong with God's chronology?

Axiom: Any doctrine that must change the chronology of Revelation is immediately suspect, and undoubtedly wrong!

Therefore:
The 7th vial cannot be poured out before the 6th is poured out.
The 6th vial cannot be poured out before the 5th is poured out.
The 5th vial cannot be poured out before the 4th is poured out.
The 4th vial cannot be poured out before the 3rd is poured out.
The 3rd vial cannot be poured out before the 2nd is poured out.
The 2nd vial cannot be poured out before the 1st is poured out.

(The same can be said of the trumpets and the seals. Why do you think God numbered them? How silly to try to renumber what God has numbered!)

The 1st vial cannot be poured out before the 7th trumpet is sounded.

God put these in order. Why then should or must we change it? God put them is this order because this is the order that these things will happen when the happen. In the same way:

The 1st trumpet cannot be sounded before the 7th seal is broken.

The 7th seal cannot be broken before the 144,000 are sealed, and the great crowd is seen in heaven.

When does John show Jesus returning to earth? It is in chapter 19. Therefore, it is pure silliness to try to get Him back to earth anywhere in chapters 1-18.

When does John show the beast being revealed? It is in chapter 13. Therefore, it is pure silliness to try to see the beast in chapters 1-10. (There are hints to the antichrst in chapters 11 & 12.)

What starts the time of greatest persecution or tribulation ever? Jesus said it starts with the abomination event. Who does this event? Of course the antichrist does it. Where is John introduced to the beast antichrist? In chapter 13! Why then do I read over and over again that the [time of] great tribulation is at the 5th seal? That is pure folly, and a sure sign that Revelation is not understood. (Jesus, when mentioning the time of greatest tribulation, was NOT putting a title on the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th week.) Therefore, although this time of the greatest tribulation ever to come, will take place during the last half of the week, this last half is not to be called "the great tribulation."

Joel 2 and Isaiah 2 point to signs that precede the Day of the Lord. The sixth seal is the fulfillment of these two prophecies. Therefore, why try to start the day of the Lord, or the 70th week of Daniel, BEFORE the 7th seal? Again, that only shows a lack of understanding of Revelation.

Now, to refresh, where is the [time of] great tribulation found in Revelation? It cannot be before chapter 11. There are two hints to the start of the "great tribulation" in chapter 12, where we read that the woman flees into the wilderness. Why does she flee? Jesus said it was because they saw the abomination event. Therefore, John is telling us that the exact midpoint of the 70th week is very near chapter 12. In fact, it is in chapter 11.

Therefore, what comes before chapter 11, and therefore are in the first half of the week? Of course it is the trumpet judgements. What comes after the midpoint and after chapters 11-14? Of course it is the vials and plagues. Therefore, the vials are in the second half of the week, and are, in fact, what God uses to 'shorten" those days of intense persecution.

Now, for those that disagree, point to what you disagree with, and we will discuss that one point.

Oh! Since the great crowd was shown to John before the Day of the Lord, and the 70th week even start, and about 3 1/2 years BEFORE the "great tribulation" even starts, who are they?

(Hint: some of us believe that the rapture will come just before the 70th week starts, and in fact, be the trigger that starts the 70th week.)

Coop

 

[icedtea]

I was reading the bible this eve, and found something!
1 Thessalonians 5:2,3
For you know that the day of the Lord comes as a theif in the night.
For when they say Peace and safety then sudden destruction comes upon them.

During the 7 trumpets, or punishments, no one will be saying peace and safety, because there won't be any at that time.

 

[timlamb]

I know it is a novel idea, but why not just leave John's chronology alone, as he wrote it? What is wrong with God's chronology?

Axiom: Any doctrine that must change the chronology of Revelation is immediately suspect, and undoubtedly wrong!

Therefore:
The 7th vial cannot be poured out before the 6th is poured out.
The 6th vial cannot be poured out before the 5th is poured out.
The 5th vial cannot be poured out before the 4th is poured out.
The 4th vial cannot be poured out before the 3rd is poured out.
The 3rd vial cannot be poured out before the 2nd is poured out.
The 2nd vial cannot be poured out before the 1st is poured out.

(The same can be said of the trumpets and the seals. Why do you think God numbered them? How silly to try to renumber what God has numbered!)

The 1st vial cannot be poured out before the 7th trumpet is sounded.

God put these in order. Why then should or must we change it? God put them is this order because this is the order that these things will happen when the happen. In the same way:

The 1st trumpet cannot be sounded before the 7th seal is broken.

The 7th seal cannot be broken before the 144,000 are sealed, and the great crowd is seen in heaven.

When does John show Jesus returning to earth? It is in chapter 19. Therefore, it is pure silliness to try to get Him back to earth anywhere in chapters 1-18.

When does John show the beast being revealed? It is in chapter 13. Therefore, it is pure silliness to try to see the beast in chapters 1-10. (There are hints to the antichrst in chapters 11 & 12.)

What starts the time of greatest persecution or tribulation ever? Jesus said it starts with the abomination event. Who does this event? Of course the antichrist does it. Where is John introduced to the beast antichrist? In chapter 13! Why then do I read over and over again that the [time of] great tribulation is at the 5th seal? That is pure folly, and a sure sign that Revelation is not understood. (Jesus, when mentioning the time of greatest tribulation, was NOT putting a title on the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th week.) Therefore, although this time of the greatest tribulation ever to come, will take place during the last half of the week, this last half is not to be called "the great tribulation."

Joel 2 and Isaiah 2 point to signs that precede the Day of the Lord. The sixth seal is the fulfillment of these two prophecies. Therefore, why try to start the day of the Lord, or the 70th week of Daniel, BEFORE the 7th seal? Again, that only shows a lack of understanding of Revelation.

Now, to refresh, where is the [time of] great tribulation found in Revelation? It cannot be before chapter 11. There are two hints to the start of the "great tribulation" in chapter 12, where we read that the woman flees into the wilderness. Why does she flee? Jesus said it was because they saw the abomination event. Therefore, John is telling us that the exact midpoint of the 70th week is very near chapter 12. In fact, it is in chapter 11.

Therefore, what comes before chapter 11, and therefore are in the first half of the week? Of course it is the trumpet judgements. What comes after the midpoint and after chapters 11-14? Of course it is the vials and plagues. Therefore, the vials are in the second half of the week, and are, in fact, what God uses to 'shorten" those days of intense persecution.

Now, for those that disagree, point to what you disagree with, and we will discuss that one point.

Oh! Since the great crowd was shown to John before the Day of the Lord, and the 70th week even start, and about 3 1/2 years BEFORE the "great tribulation" even starts, who are they?

(Hint: some of us believe that the rapture will come just before the 70th week starts, and in fact, be the trigger that starts the 70th week.)

Coop

Makes sence to me!!!

Merry Christmas!

 

[timlamb]

I was reading the bible this eve, and found something!
1 Thessalonians 5:2,3
For you know that the day of the Lord comes as a theif in the night.
For when they say Peace and safety then sudden destruction comes upon them.

During the 7 trumpets, or punishments, no one will be saying peace and safety, because there won't be any at that time.

HUUUMMMM, this makes sence too. It can't all make sence, can it?

OH Well, Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!!

 

[Kingdom_Come]

What does that have to do with what I was saying? Those in Spiritual bodies can die. And some will at the 2nd death at the end of the Millennium. But not until then.

I guess it has everything to do with what you are saying. I believe these will be flesh and blood people, not people in regenerated bodies. I believe people will live and die during the millennium not just at the end when the final judgment takes place. I believe this is what Isaiah is describing and is consistent with what John reveals.

ALL are in their new bodies. Only those of the 1st resurrection are not subject to the 2nd death. The rest of the earth (still in Spiritual bodies) are STILL subject to the 2nd death and the end of the Millennium, and ONLY then.

I do not agree with this statement. I do not believe all will live through the millennium (from beginning to end) as the ones promised to complete the day are the resurrected saints not the sinners. The rest of the dead will remain dead for the duration of the millennium so they will not be alive in a new body. Their resurrection happens at the end of the millennium so all cannot be in their new bodies. As Isaiah makes plain people will die during this time, not just at the end. The tree of life is not restored at the beginning of the millennium, it is restored at the end. The only ones promised to live to the end of that day are those resurrected saints in Christ. They will live past that day as well but the significance is that they will finally complete a day and will from there live on into eternity with Christ. Their lives will never end. They will not be subject to the second death because they will not be judged in the great white throne judgment. That judgment is for the rest of the dead who will be judged according to their works.

 

[icedtea]

Amen!

 

[Psalms34]

Any thoughts?

Yeah, I hope it happens soon, I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

I feel these scripture could describe nothing but a pretrib earth. There is no rapture timeline prophecy, as it will happen any time, like a theif in the knight, in the twinkling of an eye.

There has to be a timeline as it has to happen before something or after something. The reason I point this out is because you cannot find mention anywhere in prophecy of this event happening before the time of great tribulation. All you can find are Scriptures which, when read with a predilection towards a pre-trib rapture, seem to support it. Yet when those Scriptures are taken in context they say no such thing. I was hoping to get more questions answered as I believe that would help explain a couple of things. One would be people’s misunderstanding of the words of Jesus regarding the day that no man knows and the other concerning the timing, in relation to prophetic events, of the gathering of the elect, the resurrection, the rapture if you will.

Plainly put we cannot isolate a few Scriptures out of a text and formulate a doctrine. If we believe prophecy to be the word of God then we have to believe that it is inerrant and thus will not contradict itself. You say you believe in the second coming so answer me this, is Matthew 24: 29-31 speaking of the second coming? I think most will agree that it is. Jesus states that the gathering of His elect happens here. Nowhere else does He state the order of events and include any other time for the gathering of the elect. He does it here and puts it at the conclusion, the same as Daniel and the same as John. Thus all passages referring to this event, where no context of its order in relation to other prophetic events is given, must be looked on as referring to the same event. So anything else He says must be taken in reference to and must conform to what He has already said. The disciples asked for this information and Christ gave it to them.

Starting in verse 32 Christ begins to speak a parable which relates to what He just got through explaining. It is not in addition to it. In the parable of the fig tree Christ likened the way you can know the seasons are changing by observing the change in the fig tree to knowing the time is near because you observe these things coming to pass. Now as we press on to verses 35 and 36 we read as follows:

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

What day is He speaking about here? It is not the rapture because Christ has not been speaking about a mysterious rapture that happens before anything else can happen. He has been speaking about the second coming, the gathering of His elect at the second coming and the fact that heaven and earth shall pass away. So that day that no man knows of or about cannot be referring to the rapture (as defined by pretrib). As such it is erroneous to use this Scripture to support the pre-trib rapture notion since the pre-trib position separates the rapture from the second coming and clearly Christ hasn’t spoken about a rapture (as defined here) anywhere leading to this verse. He has however spoken about the second coming and about the fact that heaven and earth shall pass away.

There’s also something else to consider here. In our day and age the English used in the KJV is not always understood correctly. First of all look at the wording. It says “But of that day and hour”. The Greek word here for “of” means “(as) concerning” or “pertaining (to)”. So Jesus is saying, “But of [or pertaining (to) or concerning] that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only”. Hence in the ESV we read, (ESV) “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only”.

Also read the account in Luke.

Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

Luk 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. (preservation)

Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

And what happens at the fulfillment of the time of the Gentiles?

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

(not before any of this, it is near when you see these things begin)

Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

(in other words the generation that sees these signs begin will not pass from the earth before the appearing of Christ)

Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

What does he say next according to the account in Luke’s gospel?

Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Once again what is Christ saying here? He is NOT saying that the saints will not know that the time of His return is imminent. He is saying that they should take heed so that they are not drunk and overwhelmed with the concerns of this life and this world insomuch that they are, like the rest of the world, caught unaware by His return (as happened to those in Noah’s day and to those in Lot’s day, hence the reference to them in other accounts). It is upon the world, not the faithful of The Lord, that the day of The Lord will come as a thief in the night (a metaphor simply meaning unexpectedly). The saints are to be obedient and prepared like Noah. They should remain watchful and prayerful so that the day will not come upon them unexpectedly and they will be accounted worthy to escape the destruction that will accompany His appearing. That destruction is the destruction of the beast and the armies of the beast and the casting down of the thrones of the kingdoms of the world. How will they escape? They will be gathered to Him in that moment, the moment of His arrival, in the twinkling of an eye.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

So concerning what day and hour does no man know? The day of The Lord, the day in which the dawn brings the appearance of the Son of Man and the gathering of the elect and the dusk brings the great white throne judgment, the final defeat of Satan and the new heavens and the new earth.

With regard to Matthew 24:40-42 we must consider the lead in to these verses, verse 39.

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

The context of verses 40 and 41 is given clearly right there in verse 39. Jesus is speaking about the coming of the Son of Man, the same second coming He was speaking about earlier in the chapter which happens immediately after the tribulation of those days. At the time of the gathering of the elect two will be in the field and one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill and one will be taken and the other left. Do not forget that some will live until the very appearing of Christ. Not all will be dead from persecution but some will be preserved. They are those which are alive and remain. They are those that will be working in the field and grinding at the mill when they are taken.

Also remember that the appearance of Christ is not a separating of only two fates, the one being caught up to Him and the other being destruction by Him. Some will survive and enter the millennium from among the nations of the earth but the authority and dominion of those Gentile nations will be wiped away. While these people did not follow the son of perdition into destruction at Armageddon they also were not the elect of God that were caught up to Him. We know this by studying the writings of prophets such as Isaiah and Daniel. We can also look at prophecies by Jeremiah, Hosea and Ezekiel. The Jews and many of the house of Israel are among these that will enter the Millennium. God has not forgotten the house of Israel and many forget that the tribe of Judah is only part of that house.

Jesus says He will gather His elect after the tribulation of those days when He is seen coming in a cloud with great power and glory and the tribes of the earth will mourn. Daniel reveals that the elect of God will be gathered; all whose names are found written in the book of life, even those that are dead, after the time of great trouble. Paul says that at the coming of The Lord the dead in Christ will rise first and those that are alive and remain will be caught up to meet Him. John shows those who partake in the first resurrection as reigning with Christ after the battle of Armageddon. So how many times did God say He will gather His elect and how many times will the dead be raised? We know from Scripture that He will gather His elect and raise the dead at His glorious appearing in power and glory, the time of the second coming. This cannot be refuted as Scripture makes this plain. That is the first resurrection. We know that John reveals that at the end of the thousand years the rest of the dead will live again and be judged. This will be the second resurrection.

So, if the dead in Christ are to be raised in a secret rapture that takes place before He is seen coming in power and glory this would in effect have to be a third resurrection that is not revealed or spoken of anywhere in Scripture. Is Christ going to return and gather His elect and resurrect the righteous dead before the tribulation of those days, then return again at the end of the tribulation of those days and gather His elect and resurrect the righteous dead again at the second coming (which will actually be the third), and then finally resurrect the rest of the dead at the end of the millennium yet again for the great white throne judgment? If so Scripture does not reveal it. Scripture only teaches the gathering of the elect in the first resurrection and the resurrection and judgment of the rest of the dead in the second resurrection. We are told when, during the course of events, the gathering of the elect to Christ is to take place. It is after the tribulation of those days.

 

[timlamb]

Yeah, I hope it happens soon, I'm looking forward to it.

AMEN!!!

 

[timlamb]

I believe the biggest mistake in reading prophecy is reading like it is set in a time line. Revelation is written with hints of the second comming throughout as each topic relates to it. The 24th chapter of Matthew is not a timeline, obviously. through 31 is the tribulation and the second comming, then Jesus goes back to the rapture. Or, since he was writing for the Jews, Matthew quoted Him in order of importance to them. The two sections of Matthew 24 can not be the same moment in time.

I don't understand all prophecy but there are obvious differences when rapture is being spoken verses "final" comming. Jesus comes to earth the conquerer to rule with the iron rod at the second comming. In the rapture the bride is taken(the church) but earth is otherwise left undisturbed. The rapture comes while people sleep and work all over the world, that is why the word is written that way. at the time of the second comming the world is in turmoil with global war on the horizon. The things of the tribulation could not happened while restrained by the Holy Spirit, the Holy spirit leaves with the church He was sent to comfort at the rapture.

There is also the subject of the scripture that says very clearly those in Christ will not suffer the great tribulation.

It is a confusing topic, thank God it is not a condition of salvation to get it right.

Merry Christmas!!

 

[Kingdom_Come]

through 31 is the tribulation and the second comming, then Jesus goes back to the rapture.

Goes back to the rapture would indicate that He started out talking about the rapture yet He did not. Please show the Scripture where Jesus starts out talking about the Rapture in this passage.

When one studies all of prophecy, including the OT prophets as well as that which Christ said and the apostles confirmed, one cannot find mention or clear reference to a pre-tribulation rapture. Everywhere the event is discussed as part of the timetable of events which must happen it is placed after the tribulation of those days. Anywhere else that mentions singularly the event of the second coming or the gathering of the elect is referencing this same event, not alluding to a new one that they fail to fully describe and prophesy about. The only way to arrive at a pre-tribulation interpretation is to infer a timing they do not give and which contradicts the timing we are given. All I can say is continue to study and pray and if you are sincere about knowing the truth perhaps God will see fit to open your eyes to it.

 

[timlamb]

Goes back to the rapture would indicate that He started out talking about the rapture yet He did not. Please show the Scripture where Jesus starts out talking about the Rapture in this passage.

When one studies all of prophecy, including the OT prophets as well as that which Christ said and the apostles confirmed, one cannot find mention or clear reference to a pre-tribulation rapture. Everywhere the event is discussed as part of the timetable of events which must happen it is placed after the tribulation of those days. Anywhere else that mentions singularly the event of the second coming or the gathering of the elect is referencing this same event, not alluding to a new one that they fail to fully describe and prophesy about. The only way to arrive at a pre-tribulation interpretation is to infer a timing they do not give and which contradicts the timing we are given. All I can say is continue to study and pray and if you are sincere about knowing the truth perhaps God will see fit to open your eyes to it.

God is opening my eyes, it's awesome.

When I said "goes back " I meant switching to a closer event and this is evident by what is missing in the prophecy at the end of matthew 24. No battles, judgement, satan or tribulation, just a gathering up.

I have been shown what is missing from rapture prophecy, all the identifying marks of the tribulation and second comming as told in Rev. 19 and Matthew 24:29=31. The tribulation is layed out in prophecy and events must occure in some order. There is nothing that must happen for the rapture, it will come when it is least expected, where as the second comming of Jesus to judge and rule will be expected by those who know scripture.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

When I said "goes back " I meant switching to a closer event and this is evident by what is missing in the prophecy at the end of matthew 24. No battles, judgement, satan or tribulation, just a gathering up.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence. Christ goes on to describe specifically how it will be at His return. As such He does not need to continue to reiterate what He has already said. Again all of what you see being described after He speaks of the appearance of the Son of Man relates to what He just said about the appearance of the Son of Man. It is not in addition to it. Christ was quite eloquent. It would make no sense to break off into some obscure prophecy about a rapture and not be clear that He has changed the subject. The reason it is not clear is because He hasn’t changed the subject. In fact the opposite is true.

He demonstrates that He is still describing the second coming, the coming of the Son of Man. Since His message from the beginning was about the chronological order of events leading up to the second coming why would He break from that and obscurely begin speaking about something that is supposed to happen before any of it, especially without prefacing His break from the subject and letting His audience in on His break from the subject? Since the nature of His discourse has been the chronological order of events why not include this at the beginning if it is supposed to be about a separate event that happens at the beginning? Why be so esoteric? It’s because He hasn’t changed the subject.

“...so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.” (Mat. 24:39-40)

What is “then” referring to? It indicates something happens and this event follows it or coincides with it or is the result of it. The event is the “coming of the Son of Man” that Christ has been discussing, the second coming. In other words, “[At the coming of the Son of Man] shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left”. Christ is still talking about the second coming here as He makes clear in verse 39. He is still referring to what He was talking about in verse 30.

“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” (Mat 24:30)

It’s not a break from the subject but a continuation and further description of the same subject, the same event, the second coming.

 

[BombShelterBob]

So then if we were plunged into chaos by a terror attack, or some natural event, and the government imposes a manditory mark, or chip, it would be ok to do that, because the rapture hasn't happend yet. kewl. That way we will know if it's safe to take a mark.

 

[icedtea]

Don't do it! Its a big deception, we must not fall into that. No mark!

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Matt is talking to the Jew which are looking to the 2nd coming of Christ to recieve eternal life..

The church is looking forward to the Rapture since God reveal the mystery to us ....We get eternal life upon believing ... we are the first fruit that are connected with Christ

 

[icedtea]

We are to look forward to Jesus' coming. I don't think we will be very happy if we are stuck in the tribulation, where most christians will be put to death.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

We are to look forward to Jesus' coming. I don't think we will be very happy if we are stuck in the tribulation, where most christians will be put to death.

All those who believe from the cross and the rapture will not go thru the wrath of God since they are raptured

however the tribulational believers get to go thru this terrible time

 

[timlamb]

So then if we were plunged into chaos by a terror attack, or some natural event, and the government imposes a manditory mark, or chip, it would be ok to do that, because the rapture hasn't happend yet. kewl. That way we will know if it's safe to take a mark.

If this happens we will deal with it then. But it doesn't fit into bible prophecy so I am not concerned. The mark is a world wide event and is related to obediance not government identity.