pre-trib

[Kingdom_Come]

Part of the problem seems to be Revelation wasn't written in chronological order.

I agree. Revelation shows events from different perspectives. Often the same events are being reiterated. That being the case I would ask you to show anywhere in Scripture where events are laid out clearly showing a rapture taking place prior to the man of sin being revealed and prior to the time of great tribulation. There is plenty of Scripture showing that the resurrection takes place at the conclusion of events, not prior to them. Paul makes it clear that the rapture of the living and the resurrection of the dead happen essentially at the same time, with the dead being raised first and the living caught up immediately after.

The church is not mentioned in revelation beyound chapter 4.

The fact that the word church is not used and instead they are referred to as the saints (which one would hope exists in the church) is not proof of anything. This is a very hollow argument to use to try and support the pretrib position. You mentioned that you are new to this. I would recommend sincerely praying and studying The Word. I do not think that one’s eschatological belief is an issue of salvation however I do think that the pretrib position poses some danger, especially to those not rooted and grounded in their faith.

What happens if they are around and see these things coming to pass and believe that they should have been raptured and yet they have not been? This could cause some to fall away and lose faith. I do think it is important for the church to recognize the time and be prepared for what awaits and more importantly be prepared to be a witness for Christ. I do not understand why some would accept that God allowed the early church to suffer persecution and yet those at the end will escape it all. Satan will persecute the church as they are the ones that have the testimony of Jesus Christ and he will do this until he is stopped. God will preserve some through to the end.

 

[icedtea]

I would be quite surprised if the rapture didn't happen before the 7 years. Then I would just count 1290 days and know for sure when Jesus was returning, which he says we won't know.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[jeffweeder]

I'm sorry, I am just learning this stuff. But you must look at the rapture and second comming as two events.

Gday Tim-all is well, its good to exchange ideas about it, i still loves ya.
can you show me from scripture were the rapture-second coming- ressurection, are not dependant on each other.

Ive tried to show you that the ressurection is bought on by the promised coming, and the rapture is bought on by the ressurection-do you agree with this?

 

[vinsight4u]

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[icedtea]

So He will come as a theif in the night to those who aren't watching?

It also said we won't know the day nor hour. But then we could know the week?

 

[jeffweeder]

So He will come as a theif in the night to those who aren't watching?

Yes it appears that way, they say peace and safety but disaster happens instead-1thess 5

1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will[1][Lit is coming ] come just like a thief in the night.
3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction[2][Or sudden destruction ] will[3][Lit comes upon ] come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like[4][One early ms reads like thieves ] a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others[5][Lit the remaining ones ] do, but let us be alert and sober[6][Or self-controlled ].
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober[7][Or self-controlled ], having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

It also said we won't know the day nor hour. But then we could know the week?

He gave us signs to help us see it coming, and told us to stay awake to it. So yes

..................................................................................................

 

[icedtea]

Revelation 22:21 Even so, come Lord Jesus!

 

[jeffweeder]

This sounds good---he's coming---soon

 

[timlamb]

Gday Tim-all is well, its good to exchange ideas about it, i still loves ya.
can you show me from scripture were the rapture-second coming- ressurection, are not dependant on each other.

Ive tried to show you that the ressurection is bought on by the promised coming, and the rapture is bought on by the ressurection-do you agree with this?

Hi Jeff, you are a plesent fellow. I do find the rapture and second comming dependent on each other. The second comming counts down from the rapture. Many good Christian people die every day without persecution, but this world we live in has it's own problems. No place on earth at any other time in history has temptation been so strong and corruption so available. We each have our own set of problems. I think Jesus is more interested in our hearts that the measure of abuse we get.

I have quoted many scripture that I don't think come close to matching up with the second comming. Like two in the field and two in bed and in each case one is taken. That picture does not add up with Christ riding in to do battle or anything trib-wise.

I think there is much confusion as to what is rapture events and what is second comming. I have only recently decided I could afford the time to look into prophecy of the final times.

Here is a partial list of differences between the rapture and the second comming.

The rapture speaks of change or translation of believers and then they ascend to heaven. The second comming brings Christ and all the inhabitants of heaven, His armies follow Him.

In the rapture people are sleeping and working, no wrath or judgement taking place, believers are taken away. In the second comming, well He judges and makes war and rules with an iron scepter, strikes down nations with a sword and "treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty"

The rapture makes no mention of satan, the second comming is to stop satan.

Can't you imagine the impact the rapture will have on those left behind, particularly the Jews who suddenly realise they have been wrong. It is more important that the scriptures have more information about the second comming so those left behind will know they have a chance, hope did not leave with the church.

All warning about being ready at every moment is for the rapture, but the tribulation saints are told to perserveer to the end. And that end is prophecied about strongly

 

[icedtea]

Doesn't the Marriage supper of the Lamb have to be between the rapture and the second coming?

 

[jeffweeder]

Can't you imagine the impact the rapture will have on those left behind, particularly the Jews who suddenly realise they have been wrong

Thanks for your kind words Tim, and yes God has been through a lot dealing with our hearts

They wont even believe , even if someone was to rise from the dead. If they dont listen to Moses, they wont listen to me....
What i see if the pre-trib rapture isnt true is something like this

9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10"At that time many will fall[4][Lit be caused to stumble ] away and will betray[5][Or hand over ] one another and hate one another.

If followers are taught to expect pre trib, and it doesnt happen, is a good reason why they fall away.

The apostles/disciples were to remain faithful-even unto death- They all died except 1 i think. They did not believe that God was going to rapture them before the their tribulation hit. How much more tribulation could they have endured. To say that they taught pre-trib, and then be themselves murdered, would not increase the faith of those who recieved the letters.

All warning about being ready at every moment is for the rapture, but the tribulation saints are told to perserveer to the end. And that end is prophecied about strongly

Show me the scriptures that suggest this.
To be ready is to perseveer

 

[jeffweeder]

Doesn't the Marriage supper of the Lamb have to be between the rapture and the second coming?

Marriage is about being one- God making 2 one-one flesh.
John says that we will be like him when we see him as he is- This is the redemption of our bodies- we become one with his Spiritual body, and will be caught up to be with him 4ever.-The marriage ceremony begins when the bride sees the groom, then were changed and made one with him . Twinkling of an eye

 

[timlamb]

They wont even believe , even if someone was to rise from the dead. If they dont listen to Moses, they wont listen to me....

I think the rapture will awaken many.

What i see if the pre-trib rapture isnt true is something like this

9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10"At that time many will fall[4][Lit be caused to stumble ] away and will betray[5][Or hand over ] one another and hate one another.

context please, location in scripture?

If followers are taught to expect pre trib, and it doesnt happen, is a good reason why they fall away.

If anyone does not have faith to stand the tribulation, I think they will be destine for it.

The apostles/disciples were to remain faithful-even unto death- They all died except 1 i think. They did not believe that God was going to rapture them before the their tribulation hit. How much more tribulation could they have endured. To say that they taught pre-trib, and then be themselves murdered, would not increase the faith of those who recieved the letters.

The apostels taught to always be ready. There is mention of tribulation in scripture that is not the "great" tribulation. The tribulation ends with the second comming, I think that is clear. I think there are scripture that indicate a rapture that could not be taking place in the tribulation. There are two events.

I see people witnessing the rapture and turning to God but many turn to false Christs because they do not seek God but only protection. They do not know the voice of the shepherd.

Show me the scriptures that suggest this.
To be ready is to perseveer

To perseveer is to hold on through the storm, to out last the torment. Those who are ready now will not have to prove that they are able.

There are prophecy and signs for the second comming, but the hour of the rapture only the Father knows.

 

[timlamb]

Marriage is about being one- God making 2 one-one flesh.
John says that we will be like him when we see him as he is- This is the redemption of our bodies- we become one with his Spiritual body, and will be caught up to be with him 4ever.-The marriage ceremony begins when the bride sees the groom, then were changed and made one with him . Twinkling of an eye

That doesn't sound like what is stated in revelation 19.

 

[jeffweeder]

If anyone does not have faith to stand the tribulation, I think they will be destine for it.

By believing the gospel, it is clear that we are not destined for his wrath, which was always going to come, but by believing the testimony of the Apostles and prophets, God promised a way of salvation, to escape this wrath of God in which the heavens were to pass away and all the elements would melt.

The wrath of God and the tribulation of those that hate him, are 2 different things.

Tim and all, please answer the questions i have put to the forum , and quote the scriptures of your personal inspiration, this is important , to show how the word of God makes you think the way you do.

 

[timlamb]

By believing the gospel, it is clear that we are not destined for his wrath, which was always going to come, but by believing the testimony of the Apostles and prophets, God promised a way of salvation, to escape this wrath of God in which the heavens were to pass away and all the elements would melt.

The wrath of God and the tribulation of those that hate him, are 2 different things.

Tim and all, please answer the questions i have put to the forum , and quote the scriptures of your personal inspiration, this is important , to show how the word of God makes you think the way you do

.

Settle down there Jeff, we are all so busy stating opinions we haven't backed them up well. But with all the books on this topic and no agreement, I am glad this is not a salvation issue. this isn't even a jig saw puzzle, there is very little ability to lock the prophecy together.

But going back to my origional post, I was asking for thoughts on Matthew 24:40,41, and Luke 17:34,35. This is the rapture. No wrath, no judgement, no comming with iron rods and swords, just a trumpet call to come home to those waiting for it. No battles with satan, just the translation of believers. This cannot possably be connected to the Great Tribulation except as a trigger.

Another verse that makes me believe in pre trib I also mentioned in my OP. Luke 21:36. It is a little vague in my NIV, but in my KJV it seems quite clear that there is an escape from the troubles of that time for those that believe.

As I admitted, I have only begun to unlock the prophecy for study, but I have known these verses for many years and this is what I see them to mean. If you feel different, give me your take. The most confident bible scholors I know are quick to allow difering views on the end times. Like I said, If we are not ready to do it ALL for Christ, we may just get it all.

 

[jeffweeder]

good morning all

As I admitted, I have only begun to unlock the prophecy for study, but I have known these verses for many years and this is what I see them to mean. If you feel different, give me your take. I was asking for thoughts on Matthew 24:40,41, and Luke 17:34,35.

35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
37 "For the[25][Lit just as...were the days ] coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
38 "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 and they did not understand[26][Lit know ] until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
40 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will[27][Lit is ] be taken and one will[28][Lit is ] be left.
41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill[29][I.e. handmill]; one will[30][Lit is ] be taken and one will[31][Lit is ] be left.
42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.


He is talking about the coming- yes

lk 21

"It will be just[20][Lit according to the same things ] the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.
31 "On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back.
32 "Remember Lot's wife.
33 "Whoever seeks to keep his life[21][Or soul ] will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
34 "I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.
35 "There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.
36 ["Two[22][Early mss do not contain this v] men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."]
37 And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures[23][Or eagles ] will be gathered."


Matt 13
'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.""'