Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[Breckmin]

Yeah, so? Technically, it says "the day of the Lord" AND Jesus comes like a thief because the people are not expecting it/Him.

1Th 5:2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

1Th 5:4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

2Pe 3:10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

Rev 3:3Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Rev 16:15"Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."

What you are missing is that this is NOT just your English phrase "the Day
of the Lord." What this IS is "His Coming." That "Day" the Lord will COME
like a thief, and Revelation 16:12 puts this CLEARLY at the end of the
seven year period, CLEARLY at the 2nd Coming to the honest Christian.

In Christ, always,
Michael

 

[HisdaughterJen]

What you are missing is that this is NOT just your English phrase "the Day
of the Lord." What this IS is "His Coming." That "Day" the Lord will COME
like a thief, and Revelation 16:12 puts this CLEARLY at the end of the
seven year period, CLEARLY at the 2nd Coming to the honest Christian.

In Christ, always,
Michael

THree different things:

1. The gathering to Christ
2. The Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath
3. The coming of Christ on the clouds

ALL are a surprise to unbelievers.

Paul showed you that these events are different and separate in 2 Thess 2.

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.
2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,


1. Departure
2. Day of the Lord begins (man of sin is revealed/takes power)
3. Coming of Christ on the clouds

confirmed by Rev 6:

1. Seal #5 (clothes of immortality/white robes to the bride who is told MORE MARTYRS will happen before they are all avenged)
2. Seal #6 (Day of Wrath begins - sun/moon darken/STARS FALL)
3. Seal #7 (outpouring of judgment and wrath including the trumpets, the beasts, and the bowls)
Christ comes on the clouds.

Confirmed by Rev 12:

1. Child snatched up (the church)
2. Devil cast down ("rejoice you who dwell in heaven...woe to the earth for the devil has gone down to you knowing his time is short")

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

THree different things:

1. The gathering to Christ
2. The Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath
3. The coming of Christ on the clouds

ALL are a surprise to unbelievers.

This is totally absurd!! Just what is your "biblical description" of when Christ gathers the bride? MY BIBLE says this:
Rev 10:7 ~ But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel (last), when he shall begin to sound (the trumpet), the mystery (1 Cor 15:51)of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1 Cor 15:51-52 ~ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (seventh and last angel in Rev 11:15 finally sounds) for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Matt 24:30-31 ~ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other....in other words from all over the heavens.

Rev 1:7 ~ Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
This is all the same Second Coming no matter how much you refuse to see it or not accept it!!! As far as the Antichrist, REAVEALED IS REVEALED. That can only happen with the church, no one else would recognize him!!!

1. Departure
2. Day of the Lord begins (man of sin is revealed/takes power)
3. Coming of Christ on the clouds

Christ comes with the angels ONLY in all of the above verses. We come back with Christ in Rev 19 to destroy the beast right after the Second Coming.... Rev 19:12-14 ~ His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

This is totally absurd!! Just what is your "biblical description" of when Christ gathers the bride? MY BIBLE says this:
Rev 10:7 ~ But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel (last), when he shall begin to sound (the trumpet), the mystery (1 Cor 15:51)of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1 Cor 15:51-52 ~ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (seventh and last angel in Rev 11:15 finally sounds) for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation tells you EXACTLY when the Bride is given her bridal clothes and you choose to ignore it.

There are several MYSTERIES in scripture. YOU have made a bad assumption.


Eph 3:3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:



The mystery is the coming of the Kingdom of God.

 

[B1inHim]

There is no scripture for foundation for and type of Harpazo taking place till during the results of the opening of the sixth seal... because I cannot post links I cannot show you that 4.3 births happen and 1.8 deaths happen every second of every day, right now.
The verse of scripture that goes with this is Rev. 6:7-8 (KJV)
And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. [8] And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

w w w (dot) census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/pcwe
doing the math and NOT the mumbo jumbo of man made theology...
4.3-1.8=2.5
that is evidence enough to say without question that the fourth seal has been opened. Sorry that yall didn't get the memo... (I'm being funny not mean)
We do not see the opening of the fifth seal because that happens in heaven... The Apostle John would have recorded such a great number of people in the Revelation as is represented in the Harpazo... He did so in Revelation 7. Not before and not after.

We are Harpazoed outta here during the results of the opening of the sixth seal... and IT will NOT hurt a bit, I promise, cause... Jesus will...

1 Thes. 4:14-18 (KJV)
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Anyhow, there are no scripture that support this PARTICULAR event as happening till then... there may be others that are not part of this, but the GREAT DISSAPEARING act that has been taught and fictitious books have been written about is not the way Father does things

Love,
Brother Jerry

 

[HisdaughterJen]

There is no scripture for foundation for and type of Harpazo taking place till during the results of the opening of the sixth seal... because I cannot post links I cannot show you that 4.3 births happen and 1.8 deaths happen every second of every day, right now.
The verse of scripture that goes with this is Rev. 6:7-8 (KJV)
And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. [8] And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

w w w (dot) census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/pcwe
doing the math and NOT the mumbo jumbo of man made theology...
4.3-1.8=2.5
that is evidence enough to say without question that the fourth seal has been opened. Sorry that yall didn't get the memo... (I'm being funny not mean)

Wow, what an interesting way to look at it!
Yes, the first four seals have been open riding since Christ ascended and sent them out.

We do not see the opening of the fifth seal because that happens in heaven... The Apostle John would have recorded such a great number of people in the Revelation as is represented in the Harpazo... He did so in Revelation 7. Not before and not after.

We are Harpazoed outta here during the results of the opening of the sixth seal... and IT will NOT hurt a bit, I promise, cause... Jesus will...

The 5th seal IS the giving of white robes to the Bride...the clothes of immortality, the glorified bodes before the martyrs of the beast even begin.

Anyhow, there are no scripture that support this PARTICULAR event as happening till then... there may be others that are not part of this, but the GREAT DISSAPEARING act that has been taught and fictitious books have been written about is not the way Father does things

Tell that to Enoch and Elijah.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

This is totally absurd!! Just what is your "biblical description" of when Christ gathers the bride? MY BIBLE says this:
Rev 10:7 ~

What is the mystery of God in Rev 10:7

roman 11:25-26... when the double blind comes off...
Duet 32:39--43, 28:13,44

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel (last), when he shall begin to sound (the trumpet), the mystery (1 Cor 15:51)of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Law saint look forward to dan 12:2,11-12 promise and the many event that happen before this event!

The church look forward to a glorification that can happen right now! .. 1 cor 15:51-52

1 Cor 15:51-52 ~ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (seventh and last angel in Rev 11:15 finally sounds) for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Last trump of angels .. revelations
or last trump of Christ .. 1 thes 4:16-17

if you were living at 55 drive and you got mail for 5 drive would you read there mail

Matt 24:30-31 ~ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 cor 1:22 For the Jews require a sign .....

Gentiles do not look for signs
we have a Happy hope .. titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Not a mourning hope... like the Jews.. matt 24:30

31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other....in other words from all over the heavens.

Rev 1:7 ~ Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
This is all the same Second Coming no matter how much you refuse to see it or not accept it!!! As far as the Antichrist, REAVEALED IS REVEALED. That can only happen with the church, no one else would recognize him!!!

Christ comes with the angels ONLY in all of the above verses. We come back with Christ in Rev 19 to destroy the beast right after the Second Coming.... Rev 19:12-14 ~ His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

dealing with Matt 24:31

When the Son of God came to earth to talk to Noah or Abraham or Moses ... he too had angels

But 1 thes 4:16-17 ... is our resurrection

[/font]

Revelation tells you EXACTLY when the Bride is given her bridal clothes and you choose to ignore it.

Rev 4-5 before the begiining of jacob trouble

There are several MYSTERIES in scripture. YOU have made a bad assumption.


Eph 3:3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:



The mystery is the coming of the Kingdom of God.

Dan 4:25-26 ... God always rules ... what is He teaching ... too whom? and not always about you or me... but spirit beings.

1 peter 1:12

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Revelation tells you EXACTLY when the Bride is given her bridal clothes and you choose to ignore it.

There are several MYSTERIES in scripture. YOU have made a bad assumption.

There are NOT several mysteries involving the trumpet sounding. There are only TWO in the whole bible that includes the mystery and the trumpet sounding..1st Cor 15:51-52 & Rev 10:7!! If you are the one who stated that the bride gets their robes at the fifth seal, you are WRONGO!! Those are the martyers that have gone on before those who have to die as they did!! You are really starting to look alone on this subject with this false doctrine that you have. Praise God that He is opening more and more peoples eyes to the truth of His Word!! Maybe you will have to meet this head on during the tribulation before realization sets in for you. That is really to bad when the truth has been hammered at you for quite a while. I really hope that you will be able to remain strong during this time if we see this in our lifetimes, and not remain in confusion like you are right now!! I believe that we are going to see this myself!!

The mystery is the coming of the Kingdom of God.

Not biblically in this instance that we are talking about it isn't. It doesn't do you any good to post other "mystery" verses, when it clearly shows what mystery involves the trumpet and Christ's coming!!

 

[HisdaughterJen]

If you are the one who stated that the bride gets their robes at the fifth seal, you are WRONGO!! Those are the martyers that have gone on before those who have to die as they did!!

That makes NO sense.

The martyrs who are given their white robes in seal #5 are the Bride. The only people given white robes in Revelation is the BRIDE! (Rev 19)

They are given their white robes in seal #5 (glorified bodies/clothes of immortality) before MORE MARTYRS happen (the only other martyrs that happen in revelation are the one's who die at the hands of the beast who is given power to reign after he falls in seal #6 and reigns in seal #7). They are the WHITE-ROBED great multitude of Rev 7 who are standing before the throne and the Lamb singing about salvation before the Day of the Lord even begins.

Why is this so unclear?


Rev 19:6Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: "Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
Rev 19:7Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
Rev 19:8Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)
Rev 19:9Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' " And he added, "These are the true words of God."

The wedding supper is AFTER the wedding has taken place. Just like in everyday weddings....the wedding is first, then the reception....except in ancient Judaism, the wedding supper was several days after the wedding.

The 5th seal is obviously the change to glorified bodies/catching away of the church.


Answer this one question: Who else is given white robes other than the Bride in Revelation?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

How is it that these people are supposedly NOT the Bride?

Rev 6:9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held


These people are given white robes and are seen in the next chapter wearing those white robes as the great multitude from every tribe, nation standing before the throne and the Lamb, singing about salvation. Is that not the Bride?

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

That makes NO sense.

The martyrs who are given their white robes in seal #5 are the Bride. The only people given white robes in Revelation is the BRIDE! (Rev 19)

Of course they are part of the bride!! That is not what I am saying Jen. Rev 6:11 ~ that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Some of the servants and brethern have already been killed according to this verse. Of course some of the brethern have.
That means that more of the bride are going to be martyrd, and I know that a lot of them are coming through the beast reign...Rev 12:11~ And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
That should tell you right there that Christ isn't returning until after the beast reigns and the tribulation. Otherwise, these people wouldn't have to be martyrd because the Second Coming would have already happened. The wrath is right after the tribulation, and He's not coming after the wrath. He's only resurrecting the bride one time. No more bride on the earth after the tribulation. We will be living in the New Jerusalem..Rev 21:2 ~ And I John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

These are the great tribulation martyrs...Rev 7:13-14 (notice after Rev 6:9???) ~ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. These are the 144,000 who die during the tribulation. The servants (Rev 7:3) of God are sealed before the 4 angels hurt the earth and the sea. They serve God in the temple...not rule and reign if you will notice...Rev 7:15-16 ~ Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16) They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

They are the WHITE-ROBED great multitude of Rev 7 who are standing before the throne and the Lamb singing about salvation before the Day of the Lord even begins.

You don't even see when the Day of The Lord begins!!!

Why is this so unclear?

Not to me it isn't. I'm not confused.

The 5th seal is obviously the change to glorified bodies/catching away of the church.

Not unless you are a martyr!!!

Answer this one question: Who else is given white robes other than the Bride in Revelation?

No one!!! The bride doesn't all go at the same time

 

[Kŗ§]

There are post tribbers who do take this view. They are so certain that
pretrib is a deception number one. Two, they want to be a testimony to
others and they don't want the easy way out. Ultimately, they would
submit to God's will, but some post tribbers I know would "pray" to be
left at the rapture so they can help get some work done. They know
that salvation is the Holy Spirit's work and not their own, but they still
want to be used as an instrument to do such work.

There will be much work to be done, as there is now.

In Christ,
Michael

If you look at the text you will notice of whom He is talking about. Hint: The unrepentant We believers are not going to be gathered together in the valley of Armageddon by force. He is telling the rest of the world that He will take them all there as a thief.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The following verse is what is going to happen to those of us who are watching for Jesus.

2 Peter 3:10 - But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

P.S. You've missquoted the verse and have added to the scripture. Beware that you heed the Lords warnings according to His Word.

 

[Super Kal]

sorry, but no... verse 15 describes what happens to those who are NOT paying attention... just like those who continued to eat, drink, and give in marriage in the days of Noah... those who are so stuck on a pre-trib rapture and who are thoroughly convinced that they're never going to see it are deluding themselves into a false hope


and, no, Breckmin did NOT misquote nor add to 2 Peter 3:10... he quoted straight out of the King James Bible... go look it up for yourself

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20peter%203:10;&version=9;

 

[Kŗ§]

Perhaps you are unaware of the passages which explain the 2nd Coming
as being like a thief. That is why this whole thief argument has always
failed to address the 2nd Coming.

I find it more than ironic that the first post was removed. For some
reason I thought you were post trib. Maybe reading too fast.

In Christ,
Michael

I am pretrib because my God doesn't punish the innocent. Through Jesus' sacrifice we are purified, through a life seeking God with the holy spirit within us we are sanctified. He does not appoint His chosen to His wrath and that's exactly what The Tribulation is.

 

[Super Kal]

kriss, you don't even know the meaning of the words "tribulation and "wrath"... if you did, you would know that they are not the same. This is what this doctrine has done to Christians today: it's butchered what the Bible says about persecution.

once again... tribulation is NOT wrath.

tribulation = "thlipsis"
θλίψις
From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.


wrath = "orge/thymos"

"orge"
ὀργή
From G3713; properly desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), that is, (by analogy) violent passion (ire, or [justifiable] abhorrence); by implication punishment: - anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

"thymos"
θυμός
From G2380; passion (as if breathing hard): - fierceness, indignation, wrath. Compare G5590.



Christ makes it extremely clear that we will suffer tribulation/thlipsis/persecution

John 16:33
"I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world."

Acts 14:22
strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:2-4
2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:
3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.

4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.







no, God does NOT punish His children... for when we accept Jesus Christ inot our heart and our lives, we are no longer appointed wrath... but that does NOT mean He is going to whisk everyone away. the Israelite were protected when God punished the Egyptians with the 10 plagues...


but out of all of this, we will suffer persecution... and some of us will even suffer a martyr's death.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

[/font]
What is the mystery of God in Rev 10:7

roman 11:25-26... when the double blind comes off...
Duet 32:39--43, 28:13,44


Law saint look forward to dan 12:2,11-12 promise and the many event that happen before this event!

The church look forward to a glorification that can happen right now! .. 1 cor 15:51-52

Last trump of angels .. revelations
or last trump of Christ .. 1 thes 4:16-17

if you were living at 55 drive and you got mail for 5 drive would you read there mail



1 cor 1:22 For the Jews require a sign .....

Gentiles do not look for signs
we have a Happy hope .. titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Not a mourning hope... like the Jews.. matt 24:30




dealing with Matt 24:31

When the Son of God came to earth to talk to Noah or Abraham or Moses ... he too had angels

But 1 thes 4:16-17 ... is our resurrection


Rev 4-5 before the begiining of jacob trouble


Dan 4:25-26 ... God always rules ... what is He teaching ... too whom? and not always about you or me... but spirit beings.

1 peter 1:12

people are ignoring my post

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Of course they are part of the bride!! That is not what I am saying Jen. Rev 6:11 ~ that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

AND THEN WHAT? You see, "resting for a little season" is in regards to the judgment of the earth, to them being avenged. It's not in regards to the giving of white robes. They are given the white robes and told more martyrs must happen before they are avenged.

Some of the servants and brethern have already been killed according to this verse. Of course some of the brethern have.
That means that more of the bride are going to be martyrd, and I know that a lot of them are coming through the beast reign...Rev 12:11~ And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Two sets of Martyrs, Nana. There are martyrs before the sun/moon darken/stars fall and there are martyrs after the sun/moon darken/stars fall.

The martyrs before the sun/moon darken/stars fall are the church, the bride, who is given white robes and caught up to heaven before the sun/moon darken/stars fall.

Rev 12 is speaking of the first set that is given white robes in seal #5. How do I know? Because they are rejoicing in heaven in REv 12, saying "woe to the earth for the devil has gone down to you knowing that his time is short". Did you catch that? The first set of martyrs is rejoicing in heaven before the devil is cast down to chase around the "rest of her offspring"....the "more martyrs" spoken of in Rev 6, seal 5.

That should tell you right there that Christ isn't returning until after the beast reigns and the tribulation. Otherwise, these people wouldn't have to be martyrd because the Second Coming would have already happened. The wrath is right after the tribulation, and He's not coming after the wrath. He's only resurrecting the bride one time. No more bride on the earth after the tribulation.

Think about what you are saying. The return of Christ is the beginning of Day of the Lord/Wrath which begins when the 6th seal/sun/moon darken/stars fall. That wrath (7th seal) is outpoured in the form of the trumpets, beasts, bowls and then Christ comes on the clouds.

The church is changed into clothes of immortality, the white robes, in seal #5 before the man of sin is cast down in seal #6 and reigns in Seal #7 so that Christ destroys him with His coming after the seals, trumpets, bowls are over.

We will be living in the New Jerusalem..Rev 21:2 ~ And I John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

These are the great tribulation martyrs...Rev 7:13-14 (notice after Rev 6:9???) ~ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. These are the 144,000 who die during the tribulation. The servants (Rev 7:3) of God are sealed before the 4 angels hurt the earth and the sea. They serve God in the temple...not rule and reign if you will notice...Rev 7:15-16 ~ Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16) They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Jesus said the tribulation is BEFORE the sun/moon darken/stars fall.
The darkening of the sun/moon/stars fall is SEAL #6.
Therefore the tribulation is BEFORE seal #6.
What seals are before seal #6? Seals 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.

What are seals 1-4? Wars, famines, plagues.
Does Jesus mention wars, famines, plagues in Matt 24? YES, as part of the tribulation!
Therefore, seals 1-4 are the tribulation.

Seal #5 is the giving of white robes (fine linen clean and white was given to the Bride) to the Bride.

There's a white robed great multitude in Rev 7 who is standing before the throne and the Lamb in heaven singing about salvation having come out of a great tribulation. If they were given those white robes in seal #5 and seals 1-4 are the tribulation, then this is the BRIDE, and they have been caught up to the throne of God! (More proof is Exodus 19:10-20 which the washing of robes refers to)

You don't even see when the Day of The Lord begins!!!

Yes I do. It's when the sun/moon darken/stars fall:

Rev 6:12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
...

Rev 6:17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

and here:

Joe 2:31The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.


What follows the sun/moon darkening/stars falling is the 7th seal which is the trumpets, the beasts, and the bowls FOLLOWED by the coming of Christ on the clouds.

This is exactly what 2 thess 2 says, what Matt 24 says.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

AND THEN WHAT? You see, "resting for a little season" is in regards to the judgment of the earth, to them being avenged. It's not in regards to the giving of white robes. They are given the white robes and told more martyrs must happen before they are avenged.

Yes, they rest for a little season until those who must die as they did. They die during the tribulation as martyrs like they are. What is hard to understand about this to you? They are avenged when Christ comes, and those who caused their martyrdom are judged!! There is no other way to avenge their deaths but through Christ's judgment on them.

Two sets of Martyrs, Nana. There are martyrs before the sun/moon darken/stars fall and there are martyrs after the sun/moon darken/stars fall.

The martyrs before the sun/moon darken/stars fall are the church, the bride, who is given white robes and caught up to heaven before the sun/moon darken/stars fall.

Rev 12 is speaking of the first set that is given white robes in seal #5. How do I know? Because they are rejoicing in heaven in REv 12, saying "woe to the earth for the devil has gone down to you knowing that his time is short". Did you catch that? The first set of martyrs is rejoicing in heaven before the devil is cast down to chase around the "rest of her offspring"....the "more martyrs" spoken of in Rev 6, seal 5.

Well heck yes!! That is what I have been saying!! Pay attention The first set of martyrs say "How long oh Lord", and the second set die during the tribulation. The first set are in white robes already before the sun/moon darken, and the second set die during the beast reign. The first ones ARE NOT THE CHURCH!! Christ doesn't come until after the tribulation so it is impossible for them to be the church!! Use your head Jen. Not all of the church are martyrd!!! These souls already there were martyrd because the Lord says, "until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled". Have all of those that have gone on before been killed??? NO!!!!!! Many died from old age, and disease. Think about this one real good and you will see that it makes sense. You have to pay close attention to every word in a verse and not read it like you are reading the Sunday paper.

Think about what you are saying. The return of Christ is the beginning of Day of the Lord/Wrath which begins when the 6th seal/sun/moon darken/stars fall. That wrath (7th seal) is outpoured in the form of the trumpets, beasts, bowls and then Christ comes on the clouds.
The church is changed into clothes of immortality, the white robes, in seal #5 before the man of sin is cast down in seal #6 and reigns in Seal #7 so that Christ destroys him with His coming after the seals, trumpets, bowls are over.[/quote

YES, the return of Christ is the beginning of The Day of The Lord. I am SOOOO surprised that you at least see that, but you have the rest of this wrong. Seals 1 through 6 are:
first seal (Rev 6:1-2...white horse that goes out and conquers.
second seal (Rev 6:3-4) Red horse takes peace from the earth.
third seal (Rev 6:5) Black horse with balances in hand.
fourth seal (Rev6:8) Pale horse..death riding him, hell following him.
fifth seal (Rev 6:9) souls under alter, white robes given..told to rest for awhile.
sixth seal (Rev 6:12-13) earthquake, cosmic events...the wrath that starts at end of that chapter is just another version of the wrath at the end in Rev 11:18 ~ And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

seventh seal Rev 8:1-2) Silence in heaven, 7 angels given 7 trumpets.
Proof bride is still on earth...Rev 8:3-4 ~ And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
If we are already in heaven at seal # 5, where are these prayers from the saints acending up to God coming from? I doubt seriously if we will have to pray in heaven since we are right there with the Lord.
The seals don't match up totally with the 7 angels. Rev 10 is the two witnesses. Rev 11:15 is the calling up of the two witnesses and the Second Coming...Rev 11:12-16 ~ And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God..

Jesus said the tribulation is BEFORE the sun/moon darken/stars fall.

Then you are calling Jesus a liar because He said this!!! Matthew 24 states plainer then it can get that the sun/moon/stars fall immediately after the tribulation!!! Matt 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
I have no comment for the rest of this as you keep repeating yourself. Only God can show you the truth...if you let go of your OWN interpretation!!!


What are seals 1-4? Wars, famines, plagues.
Does Jesus mention wars, famines, plagues in Matt 24? YES, as part of the tribulation!
Therefore, seals 1-4 are the tribulation.

Seal #5 is the giving of white robes (fine linen clean and white was given to the Bride) to the Bride.

There's a white robed great multitude in Rev 7 who is standing before the throne and the Lamb in heaven singing about salvation having come out of a great tribulation. If they were given those white robes in seal #5 and seals 1-4 are the tribulation, then this is the BRIDE, and they have been caught up to the throne of God! (More proof is Exodus 19:10-20 which the washing of robes refers to)





Yes I do. It's when the sun/moon darken/stars fall:

Rev 6:12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
...

Rev 6:17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

and here:

Joe 2:31The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.


What follows the sun/moon darkening/stars falling is the 7th seal which is the trumpets, the beasts, and the bowls FOLLOWED by the coming of Christ on the clouds.

This is exactly what 2 thess 2 says, what Matt 24 says.[/quote]

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Yes, they rest for a little season until those who must die as they did. They die during the tribulation as martyrs like they are. What is hard to understand about this to you?

Because the tribulation is OVER when the bride in seal #5 is given her white robes. The end has come. The sign of the presence of the Lord which is the sun/moon darken/stars fall is AFTER the tribulation which is the signal that the Day of wrath/Lord has begun. Then comes the end! What is included in the end/outpouring of wrath? The trumpets, the beasts, and the bowls! The "more martyrs" die during the wrath of God which is the trumpets, the beasts, and the bowls, aka Seal #7!

They are avenged when Christ comes, and those who caused their martyrdom are judged!! There is no other way to avenge their deaths but through Christ's judgment on them.

YES!

Well heck yes!! That is what I have been saying!! Pay attention The first set of martyrs say "How long oh Lord", and the second set die during the tribulation. The first set are in white robes already before the sun/moon darken, and the second set die during the beast reign. The first ones ARE NOT THE CHURCH!!

Yes, they are the church. No one else is given white robes. The first set dies during the tribulation which has been going on since Christ ascended and sent that tribulation out (Ezek 14:21/Rev 6- seals 1-4). The abom of desolation is the desolation of the city/sanctuary spoken of in Daniel 9:26-27 , confirmed by Matt 23:34-38 and Luke 21.

The second set die AFTER the sun/moon darken/stars fall during the wrath of God which is the seventh seal which includes the trumpets, the beasts, and the bowls!. The second set die at the hands of the beast. The beast doesn't reign during the tribulation which is BEFORE the sun/moon darken but AFTER which is the wrath of God (seal #7) which is the trumpets, the beasts, and the bowls.

Christ doesn't come until after the tribulation so it is impossible for them to be the church!! Use your head Jen. Not all of the church are martyrd!!! These souls already there were martyrd because the Lord says, "until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled". Have all of those that have gone on before been killed??? NO!!!!!! Many died from old age, disease and disease. Think about this one real good and you will see that it makes sense. You have to pay close attention to every word in a verse and not read it like you are reading the Sunday paper.

That isn't the point.

The spirits of the dead appear with Christ, their bodies rise and we are all changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The reason that it mentions martyrs is because it's making the point of timing! The Bride is given her white robes BEFORE the sun/moon darken, BEFORE wrath, BEFORE the beginning of the Day of the Lord, BEFORE the reign of the beast on the Day of the Lord, BEFORE more martyrs die AFTER the sun/moon darken on the Day of Wrath at the hands of the beast.
The martyrs of the Bride are calling out to God to avenge them and pronounce final judgment on the earth, as they have a right to do! God gives the Bride our glorified bodies and takes us to His throne where we "rest" until more martyrs die at the hands of the beast on the Day of Wrath when the beast reigns.

YES, the return of Christ is the beginning of The Day of The Lord. I am SOOOO surprised that you at least see that, but you have the rest of this wrong. Seals 1 through 6 are:
first seal (Rev 6:1-2...white horse that goes out and conquers.
second seal (Rev 6:3-4) Red horse takes peace from the earth.
third seal (Rev 6:5) Black horse with balances in hand.
fourth seal (Rev6:8) Pale horse..death riding him, hell following him.
fifth seal (Rev 6:9) souls under alter, white robes given..told to rest for awhile.
sixth seal (Rev 6:12-13) earthquake, cosmic events...the wrath that starts at end of that chapter is just another version of the wrath at the end in Rev 11:18 ~ And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

You notably left out "sun/moon darken/stars fall" in sixth seal, just saying "cosmic events". Nana, THAT is the sign of the return of the Lord, the beginning of the Day of Wrath/Day of the Lord. After that sign is an entire SEVENTH SEAL which includes the outpouring of that wrath which is the trumpets, the beasts, and the bowls. THEN Christ comes and destroys that man of sin who has just reigned from the time of the sun/moon/stars until Christ comes. The reign of the beast is part of the outpouring of wrath on the earth along with the trumpets and the bowls.

seventh seal Rev 8:1-2) Silence in heaven, 7 angels given 7 trumpets.
Proof bride is still on earth...Rev 8:3-4 ~ And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
If we are already in heaven at seal # 5, where are these prayers from the saints acending up to God coming from? I doubt seriously if we will have to pray in heaven since we are right there with the Lord.

Just as the first four seals were sent out consecutively together, so too are the last three opened consecutively together. Besides that, it says the SMOKE ascended, not the prayers. The prayers are with the smoke.

The seals don't match up totally with the 7 angels. Rev 10 is the two witnesses. Rev 11:15 is the calling up of the two witnesses and the Second Coming...Rev 11:12-16 ~ And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God..

The seven seals have nothing to do with the seven angels with the seven trumpets. The seventh seal ALONE has EVERYTHING to do with the seven angels with the seven trumpets.

It is a scroll, Nana. There are some seals on the front and some seals on the back (zech3). Jesus, who is the slain Lamb, takes the scroll and opens the first four seals (on one side of the scroll). When those events are complete, He turns the scroll over and opens the last three seals.

The last seal, which is the 7th seal, sets in motion a series of events. They are the 7 trumpets, the beasts, the two witnesses, and the bowls.

They are in this order:
Trumpets 1-6 (42 months long)
Bowls 1-6
Trumpet 7/Bowl 7 (which are identical)
Then Christ comes and destroys the army formed against him in bowl #6.

The entire 7th seal apparently takes 1335 days based on Daniel 12.

Then you are calling Jesus a liar because He said this!!! Matthew 24 states plainer then it can get that the sun/moon/stars fall immediately after the tribulation!!! Matt 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
I have no comment for the rest of this as you keep repeating yourself. Only God can show you the truth...if you let go of your OWN interpretation!!!

What is wrong with you? Jesus said the tribulation is BEFORE the sun/moon darken/stars fall. That's the EXACT SAME THING as saying the sun/moon darken/stars fall is immediately after the tribulation.

1. tribulation
2. sun/moon darken/stars fall

The tribulation is before the sun/moon darken. The sun/moon darken is after the tribulation. You are apparently having a problem understanding this.

It's like saying one comes before two and two comes after one. It's the same thing! If you can't understand this...how will you ever understand what I'm saying?

 

[Super Kal]

lol, both of you are saying the same thing... it's just that BMN sees everything from 7-18 inside those 7 seals, and HdJ doesn't.

I happen to agree with BMN, because this book is clearly not linear