Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[Kŗ§]

Breckmin
The part you posted was from the Original Post and was something that was suppose to be quoted. I had to clean it up a lot to weed out all of the problems i recieved while pasting my document.

 

[Breckmin]

If you are a post- trib believer and get raptured before The Tribulation period are you going to tell God He’s made a mistake and to put you back on earth? I doubt it.

There are post tribbers who do take this view. They are so certain that
pretrib is a deception number one. Two, they want to be a testimony to
others and they don't want the easy way out. Ultimately, they would
submit to God's will, but some post tribbers I know would "pray" to be
left at the rapture so they can help get some work done. They know
that salvation is the Holy Spirit's work and not their own, but they still
want to be used as an instrument to do such work.

There will be much work to be done, as there is now.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[Breckmin]

respected pastors believe that we will be raptured as a thief in the night before anyone has a clue to what or when it’s going to happen. The word speaks of the rapture in the way of a thief. If we have 7 years of tribulation before the rapture who on earth wouldn’t know by the end what was going on. The bible sets a time line from the signing of the peace treaty. God gave us the exact day count of His arrival. How can he possibly come as a thief if the whole world is going to witness His arrival on the mount of olives? Who’s he suppose to surprise? He’s not going to surprise anyone on that day.

The bible speaks of a second coming and that is what everyone gets confused with the rapture.

Perhaps you are unaware of the passages which explain the 2nd Coming
as being like a thief. That is why this whole thief argument has always
failed to address the 2nd Coming.

I find it more than ironic that the first post was removed. For some
reason I thought you were post trib. Maybe reading too fast.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[Breckmin]

Pastor Chuck Smith, Brian Broderson, John Courson, Greg Lauri and a host of other well known and respected pastors believe

The fact is they are all teaching false "prophecy" literally when it comes
to eschatology. You can add my favorite teacher J. Vernon McGee who
is now with the Lord to that list, as well as DL Moody who was one of
the greatest preachers ever like Billy Sunday and Billy Graham. In fact,
you can add Charles Stanley, one of the greatest preachers for preaching
the love of our Heavenly Father to that list of preaching false prophecy in
this one area, and you can add my own pastor John MacArthur who I will
always consider my pastor even though I have moved from Los Angeles.
BTW, there is no one man living today that I respect more than John
MacArthur because I know he loves Jesus and he knows the scriptures
better than anyone I've ever talked to. However, I will still identify his
false prophecy on the rapture and his many messages which showed
he misunderstood the post tribulational position. I love John MacArthur,
and have no greater respect for any man living, but that does not mean
I can't identify where I believe he could be wrong on his position on the
specifics of the blood Atonement and symbolism, and his position on
Lordship Salvation (which is often semantics).

The fact that these men of God all believe something is still consensus
gentium and not a valid reason for praying for protection from something
they might be teaching that isn't true. I know this is a bad example, but
look how many scientists believe in evolution... The point is that smart
people can be deceived, especially by invalid assumptions based on
thousands and thousands of inductions (which is what universal common
descent is). I agree with what you are saying about peripheral theology.
The important point is salvation. But this particular thread here was
created for the purposes of specifically addressing the false teaching of
pretrib, and its problems if post trib is true.

Pretrib unfortunately is false teaching. It just goes to show that even
the great pastors of our time are not immune to error. I love Charles
Stanley's preaching for other all areas other than eschatology. But the
reality is, I have to call a spade a spade. He is teaching false prophecy
specifically with the pretribulational rapture. It is sad. But I do not
believe it is going to change any time soon.

Just goes to show, no one gets to be perfect.... I have lived a pretty
messed up life myself. I would gladly trade places on judgement day
(rewards) with any of those pastors meantioned. They are better than
me and have been more faithful. I can't. I can only point to false
prophecy and hope a few people here and there will continue to
move toward teaching others the truth before the seven year tribulation
does begin. Personally, based on my studies I believe it is further in
the future than many realize. The 2nd Coming is referred to as coming
like a thief in the night. That is why the Post trib position is so strong also.
In Christ,
Michael

 

[Breckmin]

2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it (Day of the Lord) will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

(omitted)

The TRUTH always wins.

The problem is that it doesn't read this way in the Greek at all. There
is no "it" in the text. It goes right from "hEmera ho kurios" in the end
of verse 2 to "no one should be seducing you according to" in verse
3. The way it is worded in Greek is completely different, so there is
NO "it."
That is what you are doing here. You are extrapolating from the English
translation words that aren't even in the original text. This is very
dangerous since you are not a theologian. Perhaps God is teaching
you right now how to test things. You should not be coming up with
new theologies without looking at the original languages. All biblical
theologians have to look at the original languages before they can
employ a hermeneutic.

The truth is in the original language. It is one event. And that is
why the word apostasia only makes sense if it is not the rapture
otherwise it is redundant.

The truth does always win. The Lord Jesus has already won for us.
He will return at the rapture at the end of the seven year English
word "tribulation." We should not extrapolate English words into
theology. Especially words like "it" that aren't even there.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[Breckmin]

pastors believe that we will be raptured as a thief in the night before anyone has a clue to what or when it’s going to happen. The word speaks of the rapture in the way of a thief. If we have 7 years of tribulation before the rapture who on earth wouldn’t know by the end what was going on. The bible sets a time line from the signing of the peace treaty. God gave us the exact day count of His arrival. How can he possibly come as a thief if the whole world is going to witness His arrival on the mount of olives? Who’s he suppose to surprise? He’s not going to surprise anyone on that day.

The bible speaks of a second coming and that is what everyone gets confused with the rapture.

BTW, for everybody that's Revelation 16:15 after Revelation 16:12.
http://post-triborpre-trib.blogspot.com/

There is a site I just found a minute ago that can help you.
God Bless You all on your way out of this deception.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[A Brother In Christ]

before you go out and making claims about things you supposedly know, maybe you should do some research on what you believe... do some research on the people who developed your teaching...

romans 3:10

do some research on who exactly the Plymouth Brethren is... do some research on who exactly Cyrus Scofield is.

you sit here and claim you have absolute knowledge, and yet you know absolutely nothing when it comes to its history and background... I try and study all of Revelation, but when it comes to doctrines and teachings such as these, I make sure I do my homework on it, because its background in the history of the church plays a very important part.

until you actually start doing your homework on these things... look, I love you like a sister, HdJ, but... I'm sorry, I just can't take you seriously when it comes to this, because you have no historical background on where you get your info.

You can go ahead and claim the Bible... doesn't change a thing...
non-trinitarianists claim that there is no trinity, and they use the Bible to make their claim... still doesn't make them right.

1 cor 2:9-12


can you define the elders in rev...

can you answer a question from scripture with scripture...

God word

 

[HisdaughterJen]

The problem is that it doesn't read this way in the Greek at all. There
is no "it" in the text. It goes right from "hEmera ho kurios" in the end
of verse 2 to "no one should be seducing you according to" in verse
3. The way it is worded in Greek is completely different, so there is
NO "it."
That is what you are doing here. You are extrapolating from the English
translation words that aren't even in the original text. This is very
dangerous since you are not a theologian. Perhaps God is teaching
you right now how to test things. You should not be coming up with
new theologies without looking at the original languages. All biblical
theologians have to look at the original languages before they can
employ a hermeneutic.

The truth is in the original language. It is one event. And that is
why the word apostasia only makes sense if it is not the rapture
otherwise it is redundant.

The truth does always win. The Lord Jesus has already won for us.
He will return at the rapture at the end of the seven year English
word "tribulation." We should not extrapolate English words into
theology. Especially words like "it" that aren't even there.

In Christ,
Michael

It doesn't matter if "it" is there or not. That is secondary to the point of the passage. You are dodging and weaving because you don't want to believe what it actually says.

It doesn't change who the restrainer is or the fact that the gathering to Christ is a departure of the church.

The departure comes first, then the man of sin is revealed. That FACT is obvious.

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him (departure in rapture), we ask you


2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way. (departure)
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;

 

[Super Kal]

1 cor 2:9-12

i can say the exact same thing to you with your false doctine

can you define the elders in rev...

can you answer a question from scripture with scripture...

God word

Acts 14:22

Bible 2 has already answered that question.
you just don't like the answer because it's not what you want to hear.

can you define the word "dispensation" without referring to Scofield's definition...

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

That is exactly what I'm saying:

The church is the restrainer and the man of sin cannot be revealed until we are gone. This is what Paul is saying in 2 Thess 2, confirmed by Rev 6, seals 5-7 and Rev 12. We are the white-robed great multitude of Rev 7 who has come out of great tribulation (seals 1-4) and are dwelling in heaven, singing about salvation, when the Day of Wrath/Lord is starting on the earth.
We are the one's dwelling in heaven that the devil slanders (along with Blaspheming God) in Rev 13.

I have asked you this twice now with no response that I could find anywhere.....a duck and dodge that you accused the rest of us of maybe? Who is the Antichrist going to be revealed to if the church is gone? Israel is blinded when the Antichrist is revealed. They are saved during the tribulation. Is blinded Israel reading our bibles that states that the Antichrist will be revealed in 2 Thess 2:3? I don't think so!!
Also, this is as plain as it can get that we aren't gathered to Christ until the AC is revealed...2 Thess 2:1-3 ~ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand (Day of the Lord)...One day event. 3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (Christs coming)shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. That is the main topic of these verses, Christs coming. The falling away is the departure from the truth, not the church.

Those that are martyred during the reign of the beast on the Day of the Lord are "the rest of her (spiritual Israel's) offspring" who finally come to belief after we are removed. They will have to prove their devotion to Christ by deeds. They are the 2nd set of martyrs mentioned to the first set of martyrs in seal #5 who must take place before all the martyrs are avenged by God.

Deeds? Show me what you mean by deeds?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I have askled you this twice now with no response that I could find anywhere.....a duck and dodge that you accused the rest of us of maybe? Who is the Antichrist going to be revealed to if the church is gone? Israel is blinded when the Antichrist is revealed. They are saved during the tribulation. Is blinded Israel reading our bibles that states that the Antichrist will be revealed in 2 Thess 2:3? I don't think so!!

I have answered that question. The revealing of the anti-christ is him taking power, taking the stage, taking authority. It's not like an "unveiling" and people are going to ooooh and aaaah over him as the anti-christ. We leave and he takes over.

Also, this is as plain as it can get that we aren't gathered to Christ until the AC is revealed...2 Thess 2:1-3 ~ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand (Day of the Lord)...One day event. 3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (Christs coming)shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. That is the main topic of these verses, Christs coming. The falling away is the departure from the truth, not the church.

It's like you guys don't read what other people write. How many times has this been said? ~

"IT" is the DAY OF THE LORD!

Seal #5 = rapture
Seal #6 = sun/moon darken/stars fall - WHERE IT ACTUALLY SAYS, "THE DAY OF WRATH HAS COME AND WHO SHALL BE ABLE TO STAND".
Seal #7 = trumpets, beasts, two witnesses, bowls.
THEN Christ comes on the clouds..about 3.5 YEARS AFTER the DAY OF THE LORD began.

The DAY OF THE LORD is the millenium. Christ takes control of heaven first (by casting down the devil & taking up the church) and then takes control of earth about 3 1/2 years later but all on the DAY OF THE LORD:

Rev 12:10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.
...
Rev 12:12Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."


DO you see that? HEAVEN is rejoicing that the Kingdom has come because the devil has been kicked out to the earth!
Now check this out:

Rev 11:15The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."


The 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl are identical, therefore the same but the point is that the earth is at that time under the Kingdom of Christ...3.5 years later!

Deeds? Show me what you mean by deeds?

Apparently, it means facing imprisonment and death for Christ during the reign of the devil.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

It is a grave error to not understand that the DAY OF THE LORD is not the same as the catching away and it's not the same as the coming on the clouds. Those three things are NOT THE SAME.

The Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath is the millennium. It is the return of the Lord, the presence of the Lord, the coming of that Day. In the first 3-4 years, it has many events which include the trumpets, the reign of the beasts, the two witnesses, the bowls, and the coming of Jesus on the clouds with the angels, followed by centuries of reign on the earth with a rod of iron.

It is preceded by the great tribulation that has been going on since Christ ascended and sent it out which every believer endures. (seals 1-4)

It is preceded by the catching away and giving of glorified bodies to the Bride/Body of Christ. (Seal #5)

The signal that it has begun is the sun/moon darkening/stars falling. (Seal #6)

Paul mentions all three in 2 Thess 2:

The departure in the rapture, the Day of the Lord, and the coming of Christ


2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him (our departure in the rapture), we ask you
2Th 2:2not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah (Day of the Lord) had come.
2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,...

2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.(departure/rapture)
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming (COMING ON THE CLOUDS);


1. Departure (Seal #5)
2. Day of the Lord begins and the devil/beasts reigns (Seal 6-7)
3. Jesus comes and kills the beasts.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

i can say the exact same thing to you with your false doctine


Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Bible 2 has already answered that question.
you just don't like the answer because it's not what you want to hear.

can you define the word "dispensation" without referring to Scofield's definition...

Yet how does this define an elder?
who is an elder?
according to Rev?

does not answer the question

Definition of Mystery from the bible
below

eph 3:9And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

col 1:26[Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

rev 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


Tribulation is different than the great Tribulation
it call context

 

[Super Kal]

actually it does... you still don't understand the difference between "thlipsis" and "orge/thymos", and STILL continue to cling to a lie started by Edward Irving rather than read the Bible exegetically

 

[A Brother In Christ]

romans 8:1[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

I have answered that question. The revealing of the anti-christ is him taking power, taking the stage, taking authority. It's not like an "unveiling" and people are going to ooooh and aaaah over him as the anti-christ. We leave and he takes over.

Sorry, you did answer that question and I responded . How the heck you get taking power, taking stage, and taking authority out of revealed is a real hoot!!! Was English Comprehension not one of your majors in school? It was mine...dumb in everything else . Even the dictionaries definition of revealed states this...
re·veal 1 (rĭ-vēl') Pronunciation Key
tr.v. re·vealed, re·veal·ing, re·veals

1. 1. To make known (something concealed or secret): revealed a confidence.
   2. To bring to view; show.
2. To make known by supernatural or divine means: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven"(Romans 1:18).

this is a good example that they have. Man will see this for sure!!!
Are you going to argue with the dictionary, or just believe your own definition? I didn't even have to look it up to no what it means.

It's like you guys don't read what other people write. How many times has this been said? ~

In your case, probably over and over because your rendering is twisted.

THEN Christ comes on the clouds..about 3.5 YEARS AFTER the DAY OF THE LORD began.

Oh Geesh!!! Confusion abounds. That is going to have Him coming after the wrath...WRONG!! 1 Thess 5:2-6 ~ For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day (Day of The Lord)should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
If Christ comes 3.5 years after the Day of The Lord started, why are we told that the Day of The Lord should not overtake us as a thief, and to watch and be sober if the church is here after the wrath? The Day of The Lord and the Second coming are the same day!! Recall the verse that I keep posting that you never made reference to, about the fornicators Spirit being saved on the Day of the Lord Jesus? Well here it is again, so try to worm your way out of this one....1 Cor 5:5 ~ To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the DAY OF THE LORD Jesus. If the Day of the Lord isn't Christs coming, how could this fornicators Spirit be saved in The Day of The Lord Jesus?
Also, you never answered this one either about why Paul is talking about rejoicing in The Day of The Lord Jesus...1 Cor 1:14 ~ As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the Day if The Lord Jesus. If this is totally the wrath, why the rejoicing on this day? Was Paul a Psychopath?
One very good clue about this being the same day is the type of day that it is. The Day of The Lord is a cloudy day, and Christs coming in the clouds...Eze 30:3 ~ For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen...it will be once we are gone!!
Rev 1:7 ~ Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The DAY OF THE LORD is the millennium. Christ takes control of heaven first (by casting down the devil & taking up the church) and then takes control of earth about 3 1/2 years later but all on the DAY OF THE LORD:

So, while we are ruling and reigning with Christ during the millennium, He is going to come back down here to destroy the wicked LOL!!!!!!? How rude, and during the marriage supper Did you teach yourself all of this twisted Eschatology, or does your pastor teach it? The Devil has already been cast out as you already know that I believe? Jesus saw him fall as lightning from heaven..Luke 10:17-19 ~ And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven...He is the prince and power of the air right now, not in heaven.
19 Behold, I give unto YOU power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

DO you see that? HEAVEN is rejoicing that the Kingdom has come because the devil has been kicked out to the earth!

Going with my Satan already being kicked out of heaven, do you believe that heaven was empty when he was kicked out!!!??? NO!! There were and are angels there. The angels do rejoice ya know?...Luke 15:10 ~ Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

The 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl are identical, therefore the same but the point is that the earth is at that time under the Kingdom of Christ...3.5 years later!

My Dear God you need revelation into the Word!!

Apparently, it means facing imprisonment and death for Christ during the reign of the devil.

I want to see where you are getting these "deeds" from..not what you think.

 

[Super Kal]

romans 8:1[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,

Revelation 20:4-6
4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

we are the elders in rev 4 dressed in white

 

[A Brother In Christ]

rev 20:4............... neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads....

Rev 7: 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

tribulational saint

 

[Super Kal]

the book is not in chronological order.