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Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?
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HisdaughterJen
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Sorry, you did answer that question and I responded. How the heck you get taking power, taking stage, and taking authority out of revealed is a real hoot!!! Was English Comprehension not one of your majors in school? It was mine...dumb in everything else
re·veal 1 (rĭ-vēl') Pronunciation Key
tr.v. re·vealed, re·veal·ing, re·veals
this is a good example that they have. Man will see this for sure!!!
- To make known (something concealed or secret): revealed a confidence.
- To bring to view; show.
- To make known by supernatural or divine means: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven"(Romans 1:18).
Are you going to argue with the dictionary, or just believe your own definition? I didn't even have to look it up to no what it means.
Here's the "revealing" of the man of sin:
Rev 13:5The beast was given a mouth (a representative) to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.
Notice the very next verse:
Rev 13:6He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.
Who are those who live in heaven that the man of sin slanders? The SNATCHED CHURCH!
Rev 12:12Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."
Again, you are confusing the three things.
2. There is the coming of the Day of the Lord which is the return of the Lord, the presence of the Lord which is the beginning of wrath followed by the trumpets, the beasts, the bowls which are all part of the wrath of God.
1. The gathering to Christ (rapture)
3. The coming of Jesus on the clouds AFTER wrath has been poured out.
So, while we are ruling and reining with Christ during the millennium, He is going to come back down here to destroy the wicked LOL!!!!!!? How rude, and during the marriage supper
Where on earth did you get that out of what I said? I did not say that.
The devil fell from heaven. He has not been cast to the earth. He is still accusing the brethren. His dwelling place is between heaven and earth, therefore he goes both places.
Eph 6:12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Oh, you so missed it, Nana. Read Rev 12. Compare it to Rev 6 and 7.
My Dear God you need revelation into the Word!!
So, you don't see that the church departs before the man of sin is revealed? You don't see that we are before the throne singing about salvation when the devil is cast down in Revelation?
Read it then.
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- Sep 9, 2003
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Well I am sure that some who know anything about the bible and the AC will surely know it is him when these verses happen...maybe not until then....maybe never by some of the things that I have read on here. There will be a revealing before that. I am a recipiant of it, so I know what I am talking about. It is a revelation from the Spirit of God, and not a "in the natural" observance by the flesh. Only people filled with the Holy Ghost receive these kinds of revelations because we understand it...head Christians don't.
Do you ever read the surrounding verses before you give your take on something? Evidently not.... Rev 13: 6-9 ~And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
What it is saying is, those who's names are written in the book of life don't worship the beast, and those who's names aren't do. Can you see that? That proves that the church is still here, or otherwise it wouldn't mention that because the church would have already been gone and it wouldn't bare mentioning!! Who he is blaspheming are the OT saints who's souls are with God, the angels, and probably Jesus who is seated at the right hand of God!! It isn't the church. The church isn't gone until the last and seventh angel sounds in Rev 11:15.
Satan has been busy ever since he was cast out. Notice that it says that the Devil has gone down to you? Gone down is past tense. He's gone down, he's here, and he's getting angrier all of the time!! Look at the world through your natural eyes instead of those rose colored glasses that you must be wearing.
Uh, the confusion lies on your end BIG TIME. If Jesus is coming in a rapture to gather the church, he is coming in the clouds as the bible specifically so states in more then one place!! If he is coming after the wrath in the clouds, then He would have to come two times.. pre-wrath, and post wrath. Very unsound Eschatology indeed!!
No, I did because I thought that what you had stated was redundant. Jesus would have to leave the marriage supper in order to pour out his wrath after the millennium. Not going to happen!!
Show me one verse besides in the OT..Genesis, where the Devil is still going before God to accuse the brethern? I want to see it in the NT where the new covenant came to be!! You don't have a good concept of what all Jesus accomplished on that cross. He defeated the Devil for us, and gave us His power over the enemy. We are the ones now who tell Satan to take a hike in Jesus name!! Here a defeated Satan goes before the throne to accuse Nana KNOWING that he is defeated by Christ...LOL!!! Satan isn't stupid. He knows what happened on that cross. He is relagated to the air and the earth. By the way, heavenly realms is not the heaven where God is. It is the atmosphere right above us....prince and power of the air. There are 3 heavens..2 Cor 2:12 ~ I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the THIRD HEAVEN. No, and evidently you are hallucinating if you see this.
You can't prove it with scripture can you? Thought so!!!
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HisdaughterJen
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rather proud, are we?
WE KNOW that the beast kills and imprisons people. The question is, which people? 2 Thess 2 makes it clear that the church is gone before the man of sin even takes the stage. Rev 6 shows the church given her Bridal clothes before the Day of Wrath even begins...while being told that MORE MARTYRS must happen before they are avenged! DO YOU SEE THAT?
Rev 12 shows the man-child which is most definitely the church, confirmed by Rev 2 and 3, SNATCHED UP just as the devil is CAST DOWN to reign for 42 months. THEN the devil goes after the REST of the woman's offspring! WHO, oh WHO, could that possibly be? Maybe the MORE MARTYRS mentioned in Rev 6, seal 5?
The point is not everyone is ready when Christ comes for the church and the Day of the Lord begins. Those who weren't ready will PROVE their worthiness as they endure the reign of the beast.
No, you have added to the Book, Nana. It said those "whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" will worship the beast.
You are completely ignoring 2 Thess 2, Rev 6/7 and Rev 12. They ALL say the exact same thing.
What are you talking about? The marriage happens BEFORE the marriage supper. There is a BRIDE, A GROOM and GUESTS.
I KNOW that the devil is not dwelling in heaven! I SAID THAT! He can enter heaven, just like with Job, in order to accuse people. He can come to the earth and stir up trouble as well.
Nana, WHO is the restrainer? Paul said, NOW YOU KNOW what is restraining him. He told us in 2 Thess 2. All of you guys are sitting there scratching your heads and arguing when it's RIGHT THERE!
APOSTASIA is a GREEK WORD meaning departure. PAUL DID NOT USE the English word Apostasy meaning rebellion or falling away from the faith. He used the GREEK WORD.
Paul's scenario is confirmed by Rev 6 and 7 as well as Rev 12, and for that matter Isaiah 26:19-21.
Obviously, Nana, they are imprisoned and die for Christ.
What I've noticed about so-called Post-trib believers is that they are SOOOOOO nasty. The name-calling and the false accusations...it's just so NOT what you'd expect from a fellow Christian. What's up with that?
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Super Kal
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and you think no pre-tribbers ever don't do any of this themselves?
please get real, HdJ.
I've been personally called a Jehovah's Witness, a satanist, and a worker of Satan just because I hold the post-trib doctrine.
and you know what, HdJ... I may disagree with you on pre-tribulation, but I will never call you a worker of Satan. Ever.
I don't hate you, HdJ... but I do hate this lie.
please get real, HdJ.
I've been personally called a Jehovah's Witness, a satanist, and a worker of Satan just because I hold the post-trib doctrine.
and you know what, HdJ... I may disagree with you on pre-tribulation, but I will never call you a worker of Satan. Ever.
I don't hate you, HdJ... but I do hate this lie.
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HisdaughterJen
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I've been personally called a Jehovah's Witness by Nana...she went to my personal page and saw that I was raised as a JW and decided to slander and attack me with it even though I have not been a witness for 20 years.
The so-called "pre-trib" catching away is not a lie...just like the so-called "post-trib" position is not entirely wrong either.
It all depends on what the Bible actually says without translation errors or erroneous teachings getting in the way. I'm sure we'd all agree on that point regardless of where we stand on the timing of the rapture.
What I have seen is that the "tribulation" is not the reign of the devil but something every believer endures leading up to the sun/moon darkening/stars falling when the Day of the Lord begins. The idea that the "tribulation" is the reign of the devil stems from the erroneous teaching that the abomination of desolation in Matt 24/Daniel 9:26-27 is the anti-christ when it is not. It is the desolation of the temple confirmed by Jesus himself in Matt 23:34-38 and by Luke 21 as well as Daniel 9:26 & 27. (27 describes 26's desolation in more detail and the consequences)
It's a big snowball effect...one erroneous teaching leads to another.
Throw out everything that the so-called teachers have said and ask God to show you. Then allow Him to do so. You can always go back to the old mindset if you don't see it.
It's rather weird to me that people will hold on to things even when the truth stares them in the face. I know, you're probably thinking to yourself, "look who's talking".
If people would just realize, regarding 2 Thess 2, that Paul never used the English word (derived from the Greek) "Apostasy", meaning falling away from the faith. He used the Greek word, APOSTASIA, meaning "to move away from place of standing" or departure which is exactly what the gathering to Christ is because we are leaving, we are meeting Christ in the air.
I wish...no, I'm asking directly..ANYONE who disagrees with this to go to God in prayer. ASK HIM about APOSTASIA. ASK HIM about me, even, and whether or not I'm full of it or see something that He has taught me. Let Him tell you the truth.
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Yes, I'm proud to be used by God. Can you say the same?
NO I didn't. This went right over your head...as usual. Since it says that those who's names are not written the book of life from the foundation of the world will worship the beast, it is also saying those who's names are written in the book won't worship the beast. That's not hard to understand. Gee, I'm not a brain surgeon, but I can see that easily. If it was just the "heathens" left here, it wouldn't have even mentioned the book of life at all.
I give up!!
Yeah, so what is your point? Jesus still isn't leaving his bride and guests to destroy the wicked. That would make Him a lousy host
Nope to the heaven answer!!!
It doesn't say that the restrainer is the church. That is your own rendition.
How do you know that? Falling away is listed as departure from the faith in a whole heck of a lot of translations. I know..I checked it out.
You said deeds. Is dying a deed these days?
Well, it's not called nasty in my book. I just hate it when someone takes the Word of God and smears it's contents into a bunch of nonsensical fal-da-ral made up out of their own heads. I can tolerate minor misinterpretations, we all do that I'm sure. It's the taking the bible out of total context and re-arranging events to suit ones own beliefs. If I hate it. so does God
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Do you know that all liars will not inherit the kingdom of God? I said that you were a former Jehovahs Witness and maybe that you still had some of those beliefs. I recall it like it was yesterday!!
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HisdaughterJen
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Nana, everything that follows the sun/moon darkening/stars falling (seal #6) is the judgment and wrath of God....the wrath that the church is not appointed to suffer. It includes the trumpets, the beasts, the two witnesses and the bowls which are all part of the 7th seal. How do I know? Because #7 comes after #6.
1. Nana, who are the martyrs who are given white robes in seal #5? Who is the 2nd group of martyrs that the 1st group of martyrs are told about in that same seal?
There's only two groups. Those leading up to the beginning of the Day of the Lord/Wrath and those that die at the hands of the beast on the Day of the Lord/Wrath.
2. What, exactly do the white robes symbolize? hint: Rev 19:8
3. Who is the restrainer in 2 Thess 2?
4. If an apostasy "from the faith" is holding back the man of sin, why doesn't Paul say a word about it in 2 Thess 2?
DO you understand that the word apostasy (in English) is derived from the Greek Word APOSTASIA which means departure except that, in English, we added "from the faith"? When people say, "apostasy", they are usually referring to a falling away from the faith but that's NOT what Paul was talking about because he ACTUALLY SAID in the very first line that he was talking about "our gathering to Christ" which is the catching AWAY...our departure!
1. Nana, who are the martyrs who are given white robes in seal #5? Who is the 2nd group of martyrs that the 1st group of martyrs are told about in that same seal?
There's only two groups. Those leading up to the beginning of the Day of the Lord/Wrath and those that die at the hands of the beast on the Day of the Lord/Wrath.
2. What, exactly do the white robes symbolize? hint: Rev 19:8
3. Who is the restrainer in 2 Thess 2?
4. If an apostasy "from the faith" is holding back the man of sin, why doesn't Paul say a word about it in 2 Thess 2?
DO you understand that the word apostasy (in English) is derived from the Greek Word APOSTASIA which means departure except that, in English, we added "from the faith"? When people say, "apostasy", they are usually referring to a falling away from the faith but that's NOT what Paul was talking about because he ACTUALLY SAID in the very first line that he was talking about "our gathering to Christ" which is the catching AWAY...our departure!
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- Sep 9, 2003
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Once again, the wrath doesn't start until after the last and 7th angel sounds...when we leave (Rev 11:15) Here is the wrath starting and we are receiving our rewards in heaven..Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
1. Nana, who are the martyrs who are given white robes in seal #5? Who is the 2nd group of martyrs that the 1st group of martyrs are told about in that same seal?
There's only two groups. Those leading up to the beginning of the Day of the Lord/Wrath and those that die at the hands of the beast on the Day of the Lord/Wrath.
2. What, exactly do the white robes symbolize? hint: Rev 19:8
3. Who is the restrainer in 2 Thess 2?
4. If an apostasy from the faith is holding back the man of sin, why doesn't Paul say a word about it in 2 Thess 2?
We all went through this last night with you. You are an Eschatoligical wonder unto yourself...one of a kind. I see Pre, post, and a hint of Preterisim....Scary!!!
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HisdaughterJen
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Duck and weave, insult and poof, she's gone, without answering the questions! You guys aren't being honest with yourselves.
Rev 6:12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
...
Rev 6:17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"
What follows #6?....number 7!
What does seal #7 start with in Rev 8? 6 TRUMPETS! and BEASTS! TWO WITNESSES! 6 BOWLS! 7th TRUMPET/7th BOWL which are identical
THEN, Christ comes on the clouds to destroy that beast's army formed against him in BOWL #6!
Joe 2:31The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
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HisdaughterJen
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Yeah, so? Technically, it says "the day of the Lord" AND Jesus comes like a thief because the people are not expecting it/Him.
1Th 5:2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
1Th 5:4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
2Pe 3:10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
Rev 3:3Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
Rev 16:15"Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
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HisdaughterJen
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....and verse 9
1Th 5:9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Well, that whole passage, actually!
1Th 5:1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you,
1Th 5:2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
1Th 5:4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
1Th 5:5You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
1Th 5:6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled.
1Th 5:7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.
1Th 5:8But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.
1Th 5:9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
DId you catch that? The Day of the Lord is when wrath begins just like Rev 6, seal 6 makes perfectly clear!
Nothing is going to change the fact that the church is gathered to Christ before the Day of the Lord begins as 2 Thess 2, Rev 6/7, Rev 12 makes very clear.
No doubt, Jesus, himself, will also come like a thief to those who haven't got a clue just as Rev 16 states.
Rev 16:14They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15"Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
Rev 16:16Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
2Th 2:7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
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- Sep 9, 2003
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I never duck and weave when it comes you Jen. You are to entertaining
. Being honest with ourselves doesn't have to include saying that you are right. You are NO WAY right. Right now I am just pretty much bored with all of this back and forth mumbo jumbo coming from you that never changes when biblical proof has been brought forth countless times by many. I will NEVER accept your rendering of the wrath being during the millennium!! We can't have a wrath during the millinnium when Satan is bound during that 1000 years!!! There is peace during this time until Satan is loosed after the 1000 years to deceive the nations once more. The remnant are on the earth during this time repopulating, and the wicked have been destroyed at the Second Coming/Day of The Lord. Now some of us posties may have a different take on some events, but at least we know that we are going to know who the Antichrist is, and we are going to be here 3.5 years under his reign....not escape all the bad stuff just because we bare the name of Christ. I still believe that many pre-tribbers are going to be in total confusion during this time!! They are already deceived and confused.
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HisdaughterJen
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I never duck and weave when it comes you Jen. You are to entertaining
In other words, you're saying, "I'm going to believe what I want to believe no matter what the Bible actually says".
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