Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[Big Mouth Nana]

I'd say the same about you although according to you it's impossible for you to be wrong.

Why are you telling whoppers? You are already being deceived by Satan, now the Father of lies is using you once again telling falsehoods. Where does it end? Either your reading comprehension is basically nil, or you don't read all the posts.Which is it? I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but somehow I can't at this point because of your attitude in other posts.I have stated more then once on here that I am checking something out, or studying something..basically the air question. I have already told you that none of us have "arrived yet", and I even posted the verse about seeing through a glass darkly, but yet you keep throwing lies out there anyway. See if you can understand this...NANA IS NOT ALWAYS RIGHT, BUT I AM ABOUT THE POST TRIB CATCHING AWAY. Comprehend this..James 4:7 ~Submit yourselves therefore to God. RESIST THE DEVIL, and he will flee from you. Rev 21:8 ~ But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Posts where Nana stated that she was checking out the "air" scenerio, none of us have arrived yet etc.
Post # 150, #166, #170....Want to throw another lie out there, or stick to the truth of what people say?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

You are the only one that believe the tribulation is the 2,000 year period between the ascension and return of Christ and I have refuted it many times, and can do so with one solitary scripture Matthew 24:21. If what you call the wrath is worse than what you call the tribulation this verse and your theory cannot both be true. I will believe God's word over your theory.

CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


What was 70AD to 1945 to the Jews and to Israel, a picnic? There was never anything like it for them and there won't be again.

After the destruction and desolation of the temple, the city and the dispersal of the Jews into all nations, (which was VERY BAD...can you even imagine how awful that would be?) THEN what happened to them?

They were kicked out of countries, hated, killed, chased around from place to place...homeless, rootless, without God and without the protection of country. Wars, famines, plagues, persecution.

THEN what happened to them?

A NAZI decided to round 'em and systematically exterminate them and he succeeded in killing 6 MILLION of God's people before the world knew what was going on over there. If that war had not ended, no one would have survived.

Then what happened to them?

A nation was born in a day. The people of Israel started returning to their God-given homeland. Every nation that has come against them loses. They got Jerusalem back in a 6 day war.


CONTEXT!

PS: Luke understood the context and confirms what I'm saying!

Luk 21:23How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.
Luk 21:24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Oh yeah it very comforting believing you will actually have to go through the tribulation. We do not believe it because it is comforting, we believe it because it is what the Bible says.

Amen onwings. I believe that one of the reasons that pre-tribbers can't accept the post trib....not only because they are being deceived, but because they can't believe that God would allow His church to go through something so horrendous. Well, I'm sure that Noah wanted to ride a flood for 30 days and 30 nights with all of those animals, and listen to all of those lost folks screaming bloody murder while drowning. I bet that Lot felt elated when watching his home Sodom burn, and then see his wife turn into a pillar of salt before his very eyes. Jonah I'm sure was thrilled to pieces to be in the belly of a whale 3 days and 3 nights, the Jews felt peachy keen I'm sure watching Jerusalem destroyed. People can't see God as a God of judgment, and I think they picture him like the kind old jolly guy in the red suit HO HO HO!! God is love, but He is also a God of judgment, and He doesn't tolerate sin. He has His ways of seperating the sheep from the goats, and there are a lot of goats even in the church! None of us post tribbers are thrilled about going through the tribulation, but we trust God enough to see us through to the "other side" which ever way it turns out for us...death or life.

 

[Ghost air]

NANA IS NOT ALWAYS RIGHT, BUT I AM ABOUT THE POST TRIB CATCHING AWAY.

You're calling me a liar, and then admitting to the very charge which I have stated concerning it being impossible for you to be wrong.

I'm not talking about anything and everything, but about the very thing which you have said and continue to say, that you cannot be wrong concerning the post trib rapture of the church.

So if it makes you feel better to call me a liar, and then admit that you can't be wrong, then so be it Nana. As I mentioned before, I can understand your frustration in this matter.

Perhaps you can expound upon your claim that the church is up in the air from Rev 10 through Rev 19. That would be interesting and enlightening, seeing that by your own admission you can't be wrong concerning the post trib catching away of the church.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

You're calling me a liar, and then admitting to the very charge which I have stated concerning it being impossible for you to be wrong.

I'm not talking about anything and everything, but about the very thing which you have said and continue to say, that you cannot be wrong concerning the post trib rapture of the church.

So if it makes you feel better to call me a liar, and then admit that you can't be wrong, then so be it Nana. As I mentioned before, I can understand your frustration in this matter.

Perhaps you can expound upon your claim that the church is up in the air from Rev 10 through Rev 19. That would be interesting and enlightening, seeing that by your own admission you can't be wrong concerning the post trib catching away of the church.

Frustrated LOL!! Hon, one thing that I never get is frustrated when talking to pre-tribbers. It is more akin to amazement that their heads are buried so deep in the sand that they can't decypher one simple verse in Matt 24 that clearly shows that Jesus comes after the tribulation. These are His own Words when speaking to His diciples, so you are calling Him a liar. I would like you to show me just one verse where it states that He is coming once for the church with the sound of a trumpet, and once again for Israel with the sound of a trumpet? According to my bibles, and I have a few, He only comes one time for the saints. All of these different verses in the bible regarding Christs coming are pointing to a certain time frame..Matt 24. This is why He said..Immediately after the tribulation as a REAL BIG CLUE. I guess He should have made it clearer for people and said..Hey church, I am coming after the tribulation and NO OTHER TIME.
In your weak explanation of the "elect", how will you explain the saints?
Rev 14:12 ~ Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus...The remnant are those who keep the commandments of God, and the church are the ones who have faith in Jesus. They don't believe in Jesus, they are blinded until they see Christ coming in the clouds after the tribulation and are thouroughly convinced.That is why it states the tribes mourn when they see Him coming. The church aren't tribes!!
Rev 13:3 ~ And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God (remnant), and the song of the Lamb (church), saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of SAINTS.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the SAINTS, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Jesus is saving the remnant, it is the martyers of Christ who died here. This is during the beast reign according to this chapter.
Matt 27: 52 ~ And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the SAINTS which slept arose, The saints are the church and the OT saints....Jesus is saving the remnant.
I find this verse interesting..Matt 24:50 ~ The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Pre-tribbers are looking for Him to come anytime, not when He says that He will come...after the tribulation!! That is one reason that I believe that "some" pre-tribbers are going to have problems.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Why is it that people can't see that Matt 24 is clearly about 70AD and the nearly 2000 year great tribulation that followed for Israel culminating in the near-extermination of the Jews that had to be stopped or else no one would've survived?

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.




Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:



The tribulation, itself, is still continuing in wars, famines, plagues in various places in the world, leading up to the sun/moon darkening, followed by the judgment and wrath of God.

Rev 6 lays it out very nicely:

Seals 1-4 = tribulation
Seal 5 = giving of white robes (rapture)
Seal 6 = sun/moon darken
Seal 7 = outpouring of judgment and wrath
Christ returns.



Furthermore, LUKE backs this up:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The anti-christ is not going to lead Israel "captive into all nations". These passages are indeed about 70AD

 

[Ghost air]

Frustrated LOL!! Hon, one thing that I never get is frustrated when talking to pre-tribbers. It is more akin to amazement that their heads are buried so deep in the sand that they can't decypher one simple verse in Matt 24 that clearly shows that Jesus comes after the tribulation.

I absolutely 100% agree with Matthew 24 telling me (I agree that it is as plain as it gets) that Christ comes after the tribulation.

There's one simple difference between our views of Matthew 24;

You say that it (Matt 24) pertains to the church. I say that it pertains to Israel.

As I have mentioned too many times already, it speaks of Jerusalem, it speaks of Judaea, and it speaks of the Sabbath Day. It's the Lord speaking to Jewish men about the end of the age. The church didn't exist yet, and yet you are telling us that it's about the church.

Couple this with Rev 12, and we're told about the woman (who is clearly Israel) being with child and then being provided a place for in the wilderness for 1260 days or 3.5 years. The church is nowhere in sight in either Matt 24 or Rev 12.

So then when you're confronted with the fact that Rev 19 speaks of the coming of Christ with His saints following Him, you're telling us that they were raptured somewhere in Rev 10 (you still haven't told us exactly when that is), and that the marriage of the Lamb takes place in the air, and then we come right back down to earth.

So once again, seeing that you yourself admit that you cannot be wrong about the catching away of the church, simply tell us what you're talking about in Rev 10. Could you do that ? Or do you not know the details ? Or perhaps you're still leaning one way or another ? And yet you can't be wrong ?

What I read in Rev 19 is simple and requires nothing more than accepting what it says with childlike faith. It tells me of multitudes in HEAVEN, it tells me that the marriage of the Lamb is come and that the bride has made herself ready, and that she is arrayed in fine linen. This is all told to us BEFORE we are told about Christ coming with those armies IN HEAVEN following Him.

So if you'd elaborate a little more on your scenario with the church being caught up in Rev 10, perhaps you'd clear things up for us. That would be interesting and enlightening as I mentioned, seeing that you confess that it is impossible for you to be wrong in this matter.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

I absolutely 100% agree with Matthew 24 telling me (I agree that it is as plain as it gets) that Christ comes after the tribulation.

There's one simple difference between our views of Matthew 24;

You say that it (Matt 24) pertains to the church. I say that it pertains to Israel.

As I have mentioned too many times already, it speaks of Jerusalem, it speaks of Judaea, and it speaks of the Sabbath Day. It's the Lord speaking to Jewish men about the end of the age. The church didn't exist yet, and yet you are telling us that it's about the church.

Couple this with Rev 12, and we're told about the woman (who is clearly Israel) being with child and then being provided a place for in the wilderness for 1260 days or 3.5 years. The church is nowhere in sight in either Matt 24 or Rev 12.

So then when you're confronted with the fact that Rev 19 speaks of the coming of Christ with His saints following Him, you're telling us that they were raptured somewhere in Rev 10 (you still haven't told us exactly when that is), and that the marriage of the Lamb takes place in the air, and then we come right back down to earth.

So once again, seeing that you yourself admit that you cannot be wrong about the catching away of the church, simply tell us what you're talking about in Rev 10. Could you do that ? Or do you not know the details ? Or perhaps you're still leaning one way or another ? And yet you can't be wrong ?

What I read in Rev 19 is simple and requires nothing more than accepting what it says with childlike faith. It tells me of multitudes in HEAVEN, it tells me that the marriage of the Lamb is come and that the bride has made herself ready, and that she is arrayed in fine linen. This is all told to us BEFORE we are told about Christ coming with those armies IN HEAVEN following Him.

So if you'd elaborate a little more on your scenario with the church being caught up in Rev 10, perhaps you'd clear things up for us. That would be interesting and enlightening as I mentioned, seeing that you confess that it is impossible for you to be wrong in this matter.

Okay, but bare with me please without accusations. I am still learning also as well as you, and I said that I was studying this part This is what I see regarding Rev 10 and the last angel beginning to sound the trumpet plus following events. In that chapter in verse 7 it says..But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. I corrolate that verse with 1 Cor 15:51 ~ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. In Rev 11:15 the two witnesses are called up in a cloud, so I am thinking that this is the same cloud that Jesus calls up the church in. Kind of odd that there is a cloud here also, so this has to be the same coming of the Lord also. Verse 15 says that the 7th angel sounded and there were great voices in heaven saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. From Rev 10 to Rev 11:15 is all the resurrection and gathering of the live folks. The wrath begins in Rev 11:18 a few verses later...we aren't on the earth at this time. Now, verse 15 also states that there were great voices in heaven, not the air. Verse 18 says that we are receiving rewards, so I don't believe that we are getting these rewards in the air, it has to be in heaven. Does this make sense to you so far? Rev 12 after looking at it closely seems to be dealing with Israel only, but that doesn't mean that we aren't there, just not mentioned since it is about Israel. Rev 13 is where it gets fuzzy but interesting to say the least, and I may have to change my belief about where the bride is. It says in chapter 13 when talking about the rise of the beast.. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. Now this has to be us who were just previously caught up. If this is the case of it being us in heaven, of course all that are left on the earth are the remnant and the unbelievers. All of the rest of chapter 13 are talking about the beast deceiving men on the earth and them taking the mark. Now here is another "fuzzy". Verse 18 gives the clue to the beast and his number. Now if we are in heaven at this point, who is going to recognize the number of the beast if only the lost and the remnant are left on the earth at this time? The remnant are blinded at this point....supposedly. The church has to be here during the tribulation. Chapter 14 the 144,000 are sealed. There are people still hearing the gospel on the earth in this chapter in verse 6. Who's preaching it? This has to be the church also since the blinded remnant don't know the gospel...unless they had a crash course lol. Chapter 14 is talking about the harvest of the earth again14-16 ~ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Chapter 16 is the vials of wrath also, BUT, it is also talking about the great battle of Armageddon with the beast, false prophet, and the judgment of Babylon, Chapter 17 is Babylon and so is 18. Chapter 19 we are coming back with Christ. Now, either we have been in heaven all of this time since Rev 11:15 to escape the wrath, and are coming back to destroy the beast and the false prophet, or at some point we have come back down previously. See my confusion ? Revelation is a strange and mind blowing book. It can flow along in sequence, and then trip you up....but I do know for a fact that Christ comes after the tribulation since He said so.

 

[visionary]

Okay, but bare with me please without accusations. I am still learning also as well as you, and I said that I was studying this part This is what I see regarding Rev 10 and the last angel beginning to sound the trumpet [the trumpets start sounding at the start of the Feast of Trumpets] plus following events. In that chapter in verse 7 it says..But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished[/U],[one of the unique aspects of the feast of trumpets is that trumpets are used for announcements, declarations of war, call to assembly, the coronation of the king, and decrees] as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. I corrolate that verse with 1 Cor 15:51 ~ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump[known in Jewish circles as the eighth day of the Feast of Tabernacles]: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. In Rev 11:15 the two witnesses [did you know that the two witnesses are needed to declare the start of the Feast of Trumpets? they sight the new moon] are called up in a cloud, so I am thinking that this is the same cloud that Jesus calls up the church in. Kind of odd that there is a cloud here also, so this has to be the same coming of the Lord also. Verse 15 says that the 7th angel sounded and there were great voices in heaven saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. From Rev 10 to Rev 11:15 is all the resurrection and gathering of the live folks. The wrath begins in Rev 11:18 a few verses later...we aren't on the earth at this time. Now, verse 15 also states that there were great voices in heaven, not the air. Verse 18 says that we are receiving rewards, so I don't believe that we are getting these rewards in the air, it has to be in heaven. Does this make sense to you so far? Rev 12 after looking at it closely seems to be dealing with Israel only, but that doesn't mean that we aren't there, just not mentioned since it is about Israel. Rev 13 is where it gets fuzzy but interesting to say the least, and I may have to change my belief about where the bride is. It says in chapter 13 when talking about the rise of the beast.. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. Now this has to be us who were just previously caught up. If this is the case of it being us in heaven, of course all that are left on the earth are the remnant and the unbelievers. All of the rest of chapter 13 are talking about the beast deceiving men on the earth and them taking the mark. Now here is another "fuzzy". Verse 18 gives the clue to the beast and his number. Now if we are in heaven at this point, who is going to recognize the number of the beast if only the lost and the remnant are left on the earth at this time? The remnant are blinded at this point....supposedly. The church has to be here during the tribulation. Chapter 14 the 144,000 are sealed. There are people still hearing the gospel on the earth in this chapter in verse 6. Who's preaching it? This has to be the church also since the blinded remnant don't know the gospel...unless they had a crash course lol. Chapter 14 is talking about the harvest of the earth again14-16 ~ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Chapter 16 is the vials of wrath also, BUT, it is also talking about the great battle of Armageddon with the beast, false prophet, and the judgment of Babylon, Chapter 17 is Babylon and so is 18. Chapter 19 we are coming back with Christ. Now, either we have been in heaven all of this time since Rev 11:15 to escape the wrath, and are coming back to destroy the beast and the false prophet, or at some point we have come back down previously. See my confusion ? Revelation is a strange and mind blowing book. It can flow along in sequence, and then trip you up....but I do know for a fact that Christ comes after the tribulation since He said so.

Highlighted in red are my contributions

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I believe that when the rapture happens (before the wrath of the 6th and 7th seal, but after the tribulation of seals 1-4), people will doubt that God gathered the church. There will be some lie that they will believe...like aliens or interdimensional beings or something.

I believe that the two witnesses are sent to warn Israel, to testify to Christ, and many, in Israel, will still not believe even though millions of people are gone, graves are open, and the two witnesses are warning/testifying.

Rev 10 is a warning to Israel that the rapture was an act of God, that God loves the gentile Church too. They won't believe until the two witnesses are resurrected and raptured, just as the church was, before the eyes of the world.

Eph 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles–
Eph 3:2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you,
Eph 3:3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly.
Eph 3:4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
Eph 3:5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.
Eph 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
Eph 3:7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power.
Eph 3:8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
Eph 3:9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
Eph 3:10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,
Eph 3:11 according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.



Rev 10:9 So I went to the angel and asked him to give me the little scroll. He said to me, “Take it and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey.”
Rev 10:10 I took the little scroll from the angel's hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour.
Rev 10:11 Then I was told, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings.”

Rev 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.



This particular word of God is sweet when spoken, but when Israel "digests" it, they will realize what they missed and how wrong they've been.

Rev 3:9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars-I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.



Rom 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Highlighted in red are my contributions

I started a thread about the Last trumpet and the Day of Atonement with scriptures. I'd love to hear your thoughts!

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7292793

 

[Ghost air]

Okay, but bare with me please without accusations. I am still learning also as well as you, and I said that I was studying this part This is what I see regarding Rev 10 and the last angel beginning to sound the trumpet plus following events. In that chapter in verse 7 it says..But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. I corrolate that verse with 1 Cor 15:51 ~ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. In Rev 11:15 the two witnesses are called up in a cloud, so I am thinking that this is the same cloud that Jesus calls up the church in. Kind of odd that there is a cloud here also, so this has to be the same coming of the Lord also. Verse 15 says that the 7th angel sounded and there were great voices in heaven saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. From Rev 10 to Rev 11:15 is all the resurrection and gathering of the live folks. The wrath begins in Rev 11:18 a few verses later...we aren't on the earth at this time. Now, verse 15 also states that there were great voices in heaven, not the air. Verse 18 says that we are receiving rewards, so I don't believe that we are getting these rewards in the air, it has to be in heaven. Does this make sense to you so far? Rev 12 after looking at it closely seems to be dealing with Israel only, but that doesn't mean that we aren't there, just not mentioned since it is about Israel. Rev 13 is where it gets fuzzy but interesting to say the least, and I may have to change my belief about where the bride is. It says in chapter 13 when talking about the rise of the beast.. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. Now this has to be us who were just previously caught up. If this is the case of it being us in heaven, of course all that are left on the earth are the remnant and the unbelievers. All of the rest of chapter 13 are talking about the beast deceiving men on the earth and them taking the mark. Now here is another "fuzzy". Verse 18 gives the clue to the beast and his number. Now if we are in heaven at this point, who is going to recognize the number of the beast if only the lost and the remnant are left on the earth at this time? The remnant are blinded at this point....supposedly. The church has to be here during the tribulation. Chapter 14 the 144,000 are sealed. There are people still hearing the gospel on the earth in this chapter in verse 6. Who's preaching it? This has to be the church also since the blinded remnant don't know the gospel...unless they had a crash course lol. Chapter 14 is talking about the harvest of the earth again14-16 ~ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Chapter 16 is the vials of wrath also, BUT, it is also talking about the great battle of Armageddon with the beast, false prophet, and the judgment of Babylon, Chapter 17 is Babylon and so is 18. Chapter 19 we are coming back with Christ. Now, either we have been in heaven all of this time since Rev 11:15 to escape the wrath, and are coming back to destroy the beast and the false prophet, or at some point we have come back down previously. See my confusion ? Revelation is a strange and mind blowing book. It can flow along in sequence, and then trip you up....but I do know for a fact that Christ comes after the tribulation since He said so.

Nana, I read through this and will again, I think that I basically understand what you're saying.

Let me again emphasize that I believe 100% that the Lord is coming after the tribulation as Matt 24 describes. The only difference is that you're allowing it (Matt 24) to be in the context of Israel and the church, whereas I am reading it as pertaining to Israel alone.

I even believe that the coming of Christ as it is described in Matt 24 is the same one as in Rev 19.

But again, for ISRAEL, not the church.

I believe that Christ comes for His precious bride as that thief in the night (before the Day) before that Day comes. The Day of the Lord.

That's the basic difference. It's not even that major, but it sure gets heated sometimes imo.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Nana, I read through this and will again, I think that I basically understand what you're saying.

Let me again emphasize that I believe 100% that the Lord is coming after the tribulation as Matt 24 describes. The only difference is that you're allowing it (Matt 24) to be in the context of Israel and the church, whereas I am reading it as pertaining to Israel alone.

I even believe that the coming of Christ as it is described in Matt 24 is the same one as in Rev 19.

But again, for ISRAEL, not the church.

I believe that Christ comes for His precious bride as that thief in the night (before the Day) before that Day comes. The Day of the Lord.

That's the basic difference. It's not even that major, but it sure gets heated sometimes imo.

This is your problem and I cannot see how you cannot see it. Regardless of who Matthew 24 is written to it is clear that Christ returns after the tribulation. He does not return more than once there is no separate coming for the church and the a different 2nd coming that is not Biblical. Further more He does not come as a thief to the church but to the wicked.

1st Thessalonians 5:2-4
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But you brethren are not in darkness that that day should overtake you as a thief.

We will be here when Jesus returns at the post trib 2nd coming ,but we will be expecting His return, the wicked will not. Jesus returns to them as a thief not to us just like the days of Noah

Matt24:37-40
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away, so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
Noah knew the flood was coming and so will we, the wicked are the one's that will be taken off guard.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Nana, I read through this and will again, I think that I basically understand what you're saying.

Let me again emphasize that I believe 100% that the Lord is coming after the tribulation as Matt 24 describes. The only difference is that you're allowing it (Matt 24) to be in the context of Israel and the church, whereas I am reading it as pertaining to Israel alone.

I even believe that the coming of Christ as it is described in Matt 24 is the same one as in Rev 19.

But again, for ISRAEL, not the church.

I believe that Christ comes for His precious bride as that thief in the night (before the Day) before that Day comes. The Day of the Lord.

That's the basic difference. It's not even that major, but it sure gets heated sometimes imo.

I am mostly in agreement with this also.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Nana, I read through this and will again, I think that I basically understand what you're saying.

Let me again emphasize that I believe 100% that the Lord is coming after the tribulation as Matt 24 describes. The only difference is that you're allowing it (Matt 24) to be in the context of Israel and the church, whereas I am reading it as pertaining to Israel alone.

I even believe that the coming of Christ as it is described in Matt 24 is the same one as in Rev 19.

But again, for ISRAEL, not the church.

I believe that Christ comes for His precious bride as that thief in the night (before the Day) before that Day comes. The Day of the Lord.

That's the basic difference. It's not even that major, but it sure gets heated sometimes imo.

I understand Ghost air that we see this "somewhat" differently. I just want to come to a solid conclusion to this "fuzzy" stuff. Maybe I need some "Spiritual Windex" to clear up that glass that I am seeing darkly through lol. Are you ready for my "The Day of The Lord" enterpretation that might solve the coming of Christ during the Day of The Lord ?
I don't know if I have said anything on this topic, but the Day of The Lord and Christs return are on the same day..that is why it is called the "day" of the Lord. I know, to simple, but I see it as true just as Christs coming after the tribulation. The bible states this in Eze 30:3 ~ For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a CLOUDY DAY; it shall be the time of the heathen.. it will be because we aren't here after just being caught up, and once again we have the clouds. This is the wrath that starts in Rev 11:18 that I stated in my prior post. Paul said a very enlightening thing that made my eyes open up and my chin drop when I was first studying The Day of The Lord. He is talking about a fornicator. This is what he said..1 Cor1-6 ~ It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus . Now I am not a rocket scientist, but that is saying right there that Jesus comes on the Day of The Lord.
Here we have another conformation..2 Cor 13:13-14 ~ For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;
14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus. Here we have rejoicing in the Day of the Lord Jesus...because we are leaving this earth with Christ. We have this also..2 Pet 3:10-12 ~ But the DAY OF THE LORD will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, (day of the Lord) wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? I looked this up in the Amplified bible, and the Looking for and hasting means while you wait and earnestly long for (expect and hasten)..waiting earnestly for the Day of The Lord to be with Christ.
Now the all important verse that we all know..1 Thess 5:2 ~ For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. This is all a one day event, and Christ takes us up on this day of rejoicing for us and looking forward to this day, but a day of destruction for the heathen, so I will have to disagree with your thinking on leaving before this day
You might find Joel 2 interesting also on the Lords army and the Day of The Lord. I believe it is the same as Rev 19. Read it and give me your take on it. I say that it is the army of Jesus. Some on here say that they believe it is the Locust army sent by God...I totally disagree as it is almost the exact mirror of Rev 19 right down to the horses. These are Spiritual beings in this army, not bugs lol. They don't die either when they fall on a sword..which we wouldn't in our changed bodies. Joel 2 also has the same cosmic disturbances as Matt 24. I believe that this army is the AC in Joel verse 20 as it goes along with Daniel 11:45.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Isa 11:4but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.

2Th 2:8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.


Rev 19:15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.




Rev 19:21 The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.


During Armageddon, there is no battle, there is no fight. The nations gather to Megiddo to fight against Christ as He is returning and He slays them by the words that come out of His mouth.

God speaks, his creation obeys.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

During Armageddon, there is no battle, there is no fight. The nations gather to Megiddo to fight against Christ as He is returning and He slays them by the words that come out of His mouth.

God speaks, his creation obeys.

The way Ezekiel 38 and Reve 6 reads, they will end up killing each other.

Revelation 6:4 And came out another horse, firery red, and to the one sitting upon it/him was given to him/it to be taking the Peace out of the land and that one another they shall be slaying and was given to him a Sword/macaira <3162>, Great. [Ezekiel 38:21]

 

[visionary]

If God comes as a consuming fire from heaven.. clouds of glory as it is described in another verse. ... Men will hid from Him in fear.. man will also gather together to do battle... just like the movie "Armagedon" aiming all their nuclear weapons in hopes of destroying it.. not knowing it is Him... Satan does though...

 

[HisdaughterJen]

The way Ezekiel 38 and Reve 6 reads, they will end up killing each other.

Revelation 6:4 And came out another horse, firery red, and to the one sitting upon it/him was given to him/it to be taking the Peace out of the land and that one another they shall be slaying and was given to him a Sword/macaira <3162>, Great. [Ezekiel 38:21]

Ezek 38 is the gog invasion, not Armageddon.

Rev 6, 2nd seal is war, sword, generally taking peace from the earth...part of God's four dreadful judgments sent upon the earth.

Eze 14:21 “For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments—sword and famine and wild beasts and plague—to kill its men and their animals!



Mat 24:6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
Mat 24:7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

If God comes as a consuming fire from heaven.. clouds of glory as it is described in another verse. ... Men will hid from Him in fear.. man will also gather together to do battle... just like the movie "Armagedon" aiming all their nuclear weapons in hopes of destroying it.. not knowing it is Him... Satan does though...

I don't know how they couldn't know that they are gathering to war against Christ upon His physical return.

Rev 16:13 Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.



They will have obviously sworn allegiance to the beast.