Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[Mark2010]

Isa 11:4but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.

2Th 2:8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.


Rev 19:15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.




Rev 19:21 The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.


During Armageddon, there is no battle, there is no fight. The nations gather to Megiddo to fight against Christ as He is returning and He slays them by the words that come out of His mouth.

God speaks, his creation obeys.

So this happens AFTER wrath (seals, bowls, judgments, whatever) has taken place, eh? These are the people who somehow survive all of that, in a one-world alliance, that form an army to fight against Jesus?

But how do they know that Jesus is coming? Or who Jesus is? Puzzling....

 

[Ghost air]

I understand Ghost air that we see this "somewhat" differently. I just want to come to a solid conclusion to this "fuzzy" stuff. Maybe I need some "Spiritual Windex" to clear up that glass that I am seeing darkly through lol. Are you ready for my "The Day of The Lord" enterpretation that might solve the coming of Christ during the Day of The Lord ?
I don't know if I have said anything on this topic, but the Day of The Lord and Christs return are on the same day..that is why it is called the "day" of the Lord. I know, to simple, but I see it as true just as Christs coming after the tribulation. The bible states this in Eze 30:3 ~ For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a CLOUDY DAY; it shall be the time of the heathen.. it will be because we aren't here after just being caught up, and once again we have the clouds. This is the wrath that starts in Rev 11:18 that I stated in my prior post. Paul said a very enlightening thing that made my eyes open up and my chin drop when I was first studying The Day of The Lord. He is talking about a fornicator. This is what he said..1 Cor1-6 ~ It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus . Now I am not a rocket scientist, but that is saying right there that Jesus comes on the Day of The Lord.
Here we have another conformation..2 Cor 13:13-14 ~ For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;
14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus. Here we have rejoicing in the Day of the Lord Jesus...because we are leaving this earth with Christ. We have this also..2 Pet 3:10-12 ~ But the DAY OF THE LORD will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, (day of the Lord) wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? I looked this up in the Amplified bible, and the Looking for and hasting means while you wait and earnestly long for (expect and hasten)..waiting earnestly for the Day of The Lord to be with Christ.
Now the all important verse that we all know..1 Thess 5:2 ~ For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. This is all a one day event, and Christ takes us up on this day of rejoicing for us and looking forward to this day, but a day of destruction for the heathen, so I will have to disagree with your thinking on leaving before this day
You might find Joel 2 interesting also on the Lords army and the Day of The Lord. I believe it is the same as Rev 19. Read it and give me your take on it. I say that it is the army of Jesus. Some on here say that they believe it is the Locust army sent by God...I totally disagree as it is almost the exact mirror of Rev 19 right down to the horses. These are Spiritual beings in this army, not bugs lol. They don't die either when they fall on a sword..which we wouldn't in our changed bodies. Joel 2 also has the same cosmic disturbances as Matt 24. I believe that this army is the AC in Joel verse 20 as it goes along with Daniel 11:45.

SO here's another difference in our views. This one is a little larger.

I see the Day of the Lord (The Day of Jesus Christ) as being a thousand years long. Peter writes that he does not want us to be ignorant of this one thing. That a day WITH the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years are as one day.

It's what Genesis means when it speaks of God resting from all His work on the seventh day. It's that two edged sword of scripture which can speak in the immediate and literal sense as well as in the future sense.

During the millennium, all those who are saved and who are part of the first resurrection will enter into that day of rest. We will live and reign with Christ for a thousand years in that Day.

Paul calls this day the day of salvation, and it has already been ~two thousand years long.

Israel was left desolate and yet they are now back in the land after nearly two-thousand years. Jen often posts the scripture from Hosea which speaks of the Lord reviving them (Israel) after two days, (Hosea 6).

So there is certainly scriptural precedent for a day literally being a thousand years with God. Sometimes I think of what eternal life will seem like - and it's pretty cool for me to think that a YEAR for a person who has eternal life would be like 365,000 years. It would be quite a wait for our next birthday !

IOW, knowing that God is eternal, the entire hostory of the earth is like one week for Him, or seven days. Of course the seventh day has not arrived yet, as that is the Day of Jesus Christ.

 

[Ghost air]

SO - with that said.

As mentioned earlier, I believe that Christ is coming for His precious bride as a thief in the night, which is before the Day of the Lord.

Paul writes about the Day in 1 & 2 Thess because of their being told that THAT DAY had already come. Obviously the context does not support it being ONE DAY as in 24 hours. They were being persecuted and thought that the Day of the Lord was upon them. If it was one day, then it would have been overwith in 24 hours.

I also think that there's a strong connection with Israel being born again as a nation. Paul writes in 1 Thess 5 that it will come upon them as travail upon a woman with child. IMO it's a clear picture of Rev 12 where it teaches us of Israel being with child. The context here is obviously not one 24 hour day. They're provided a place in the wilderness for 1260 days.

Israel going through the tribulation will be saved, not unsaved. This is why Rev 12 can speak of those who keep the testimony of Jesus Christ. Israel will be IN CHRIST when they are brought through the great tribulation.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

SO here's another difference in our views. This one is a little larger.

Oh well, large is large

I see the Day of the Lord (The Day of Jesus Christ) as being a thousand years long. Peter writes that he does not want us to be ignorant of this one thing. That a day WITH the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years are as one day.

Might want to check the wording of that verse out again. I don't really believe that scripture is literal. I believe that it is just showing us that our time frame is not like Gods. It says, 2 Pet 3:8 ~ But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day, not is one day..big difference.

It's what Genesis means when it speaks of God resting from all His work on the seventh day. It's that two edged sword of scripture which can speak in the immediate and literal sense as well as in the future sense.

So, you believe that God rested for 7,000 years from the creation since most of the church looks at resting on the 7th day as one day, or it took God 6,000 years for creation? LOL. I can't even imagine in my mind God resting for 7,000 years. How about where it says that we rule and reign with Christ for a 1,000 years? Is that really 1,000 years or one day, and how do you know? How about where Christ rose on the third day. That might have been 3,000 years later lol. See, there are to many verses in the bible describing length of days, but might mean just what they say or not say. I take the Day of the Lord as one day because it goes along with the return of Christ which wouldn't take Christ 1000 years to get here from bible sequence.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

So this happens AFTER wrath (seals, bowls, judgments, whatever) has taken place, eh? These are the people who somehow survive all of that, in a one-world alliance, that form an army to fight against Jesus?

But how do they know that Jesus is coming? Or who Jesus is? Puzzling....

These are the evil people who have aligned themselves with the beast.
The beast, false prophet, and the devil lead the kings of the earth to Megiddo to fight against Jesus at His coming.

God told us when Jesus is coming (not to be confused with the gathering)...1260 days from the abomination that causes desolation. The devil knows this.

 

[Mark2010]

What is the gathering?

What is the "abomination that causes desolation"?

(both sounds like specific events)

 

[HisdaughterJen]

What is the gathering?

What is the "abomination that causes desolation"?

(both sounds like specific events)

The gathering to Christ is described in 1 Thess 4....well, let me just list some descriptive scriptures. It is a resurrection and catching away at the sound of a heavenly trumpet.

Isa 26:19 But your dead will live;
their bodies will rise.
You who dwell in the dust,
wake up and shout for joy.
Your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
Isa 26:20Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
Isa 26:21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her;
she will conceal her slain no longer.




Psa 50:4 He summons the heavens above,
and the earth, that he may judge his people:
Psa 50:5“Gather to me my consecrated ones,
who made a covenant with me by sacrifice.”





Psa 75:2 When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly




1Th 4:13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
1Th 4:15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.






The abom of des is this:

2Th 2:4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.




13:6 He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.

 

[Bible2]

It is inconsistent that God would make only the
endtime church go through the worst tribulation ever,
while all those in the church who have died throughout
history won't have to go through it. But who says God
has to be consistent regarding what suffering he
allows individuals in the church to go through? If he
allows one believer to get a toothache, must he be
consistent and let every believer get a toothache?
Should the one with the toothache whine to God and
say: "Waaa! Why do I have to have a toothache while
millions of other believers don't have to have a
toothache? Waaa!"

Did the faithful church of Smyrna whine that it had to
suffer and die (Revelation 2:10) in the same first-
century persecution that came upon all the Roman world
which God kept the church of Philadelphia from having
to suffer in at all? (Revelation 3:10). Instead of
whining about having to go through tribulation, aren't
we supposed to glory in it? (Romans 5:3-5,
2 Thessalonians 1:4, 2 Corinthians 4:17, 1 Peter
4:12-14).

Everyone in the church who is still alive when the
coming tribulation starts will enter into it, not just
Jews. That's why it says that those in the church who
will come out of the tribulation (Revelation 7:14) by
dying in the seal events of Revelation 6 will be from
every nation on the earth (Revelation 7:9), not just
Israel. And those who will still be alive during the
reign of the Antichrist will have faith in Jesus
(Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4), and there are no
believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5). The
woman in Revelation 12 is the church, seen clothed
with the sun of righteousness (Revelation 12:1, Malachi
4:2), just as later she is seen clothed with
righteousness (Revelation 19:8), which comes only
through faith in Jesus (Romans 3:22).

Those addressed in Matthew 24 are the church, for they
will be hated and killed for their faith in the name
of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). Matthew 24:16 is
referring to those in the church who will be in Judaea,
for there are many churches in Judaea today, just as
there were in the first century (Galatians 1:22).
Matthew 24:20 is referring to those in the
church who keep the Sabbath, for that is an option
for believers (Romans 14:5). Mark 13:18, the parallel
verse to Matthew 24:20, doesn't mention the Sabbath,
showing that it's not a sine qua non of the point of
Matthew 24:20. And it doesn't matter that the church
didn't exist at the time Matthew 24 was spoken, just
as it doesn't matter that the church didn't exist at
the time John 14:3 was spoken: both are referring to
the church at a future time.

Some in the church will survive the entire tribulation,
so that they'll still be "alive and remain" at the
second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). They will
have gone through the entire tribulation without ever
being appointed to God's wrath, for no one who has
obtained salvation can be appointed to God's wrath
(1 Thessalonians 5:9). During the vials of God's wrath
at the very end of the tribulation (Revelation 16),
those in the church still alive on the earth, still
waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15),
will go into protective chambers on the earth (Isaiah
26:20), like Noah went into the protective ark during
the flood.

After the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters
6-18 is over, Jesus will come to gather together the
church (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, 2 Thessalonians
2:1) to meet him in the sky on his way down to the
earth (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), so that the church
might be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and
then married (Revelation 19:7) in the sky (the first
heaven) before mounting white horses and coming back
down from the sky with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he
brings God's judgment and wrath (Revelation 19:11,15)
against the Antichrist and the whole world (Revelation
19:19-21). So Jesus will destroy the Antichrist when
he comes to gather together the church (2 Thessalonians
2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). The second coming will
begin the day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

The wedding feast (Revelation 19:9) will occur on the
earth after the second coming (Isaiah 25:6-9). Paul
quotes from Isaiah 25:8 in connection with the
resurrection of the church (1 Corinthians 15:54) at
the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:22-23, Revelation
20:4-6).

After the second coming (Revelation 19:7-21), the
church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the
millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29). After
the millennium and the subsequent battle of Gog and
Magog (Revelation 20:7-9, Ezekiel chapters 38-39),
heaven and earth will flee away before the white
throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). Those in the
church who had been judged at the second coming won't
be in this judgment, and so could spend that time in
New Jerusalem. After the white throne judgment is over
(Revelation 20:11-15), God will create a new earth
(Revelation 21:1). Then New Jerusalem, which is both
the bride (Revelation 21:9-10) and the Father's house
(Revelation 21:2-3), will descend to the new earth,
and everyone in the church will live with the Father
and Jesus in the place Jesus prepared (John 14:2).

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Everyone in the church who is still alive when the
coming tribulation starts will enter into it, not just
Jews. That's why it says that those in the church who
will come out of the tribulation (Revelation 7:14) by
dying in the seal events of Revelation 6 will be from
every nation on the earth (Revelation 7:9), not just
Israel. And those who will still be alive during the
reign of the Antichrist will have faith in Jesus
(Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4), and there are no
believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5). The
woman in Revelation 12 is the church, seen clothed
with the sun of righteousness (Revelation 12:1, Malachi
4:2), just as later she is seen clothed with
righteousness (Revelation 19:8), which comes only
through faith in Jesus (Romans 3:22).

Those addressed in Matthew 24 are the church, for they
will be hated and killed for their faith in the name
of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). Matthew 24:16 is
referring to those in the church who will be in Judaea,
for there are many churches in Judaea today, just as
there were in the first century (Galatians 1:22).

Although I pretty much agree with everything that you stated in this post..shock, shock, I disagree with your interpretation of Rev 12:1 being the church and Matt 24:16 being the church. Rev 12:1 is Israel, as it states that upon her head were 12 stars. That represents the 12 tribes of Israel...not the church. Even though the church will go through the tribulation, most of Rev 12 deals with Israel alone. In Matt 24:16 it says that those in Judaea will flee to the mountains...these are the Jewish remnant, not the church once again. These are the 144,000 sealed from the house of Jacob and house of Judah that take flight into the mountains. It doesn't even make sense that the church would run and hide. We are the ones who do know their God and will do exploits during the tribulation and instruct many, although some of us will be martyred for our faith...Dan 11:31-33 ~ And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
The Christians are the ones who are going to have the answers. The remnant are saved during the tribulation so there is no way possible that they could be strong and doing these exploits when they have fled to the mountains.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What is the gathering?

What is the "abomination that causes desolation"?

(both sounds like specific events)

And they both apply to Jerusalem it seems.........

Luke 21:20 `Whenever yet ye may seeing being surrounded by armies, Jerusalem, then be knowing that is nigh the desolating/erhmwsiV <2050>; of Her

Revelation 18:19 And they cast dust upon their heads and cried-out, weeping and mourning, saying: Woe! Woe! that great city, wherein all were made rich, that had ships at sea, by reason of her prices. That one Hour She is made desolate/hrhmwqh <2049> (5681) .

 

[Bible2]

In Revelation 12:1, the church is seen clothed with
the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), just as later
she is seen clothed with righteousness (Revelation
19:8). Only those with faith in Jesus have
righteousness (Romans 3:22-26), and no one with faith
in Jesus is outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

In Matthew 24:16, those in Judaea are those in the
many churches which are in Judaea today, just as
there were churches in Judaea in the first century
(Galatians 1:22).

The twelve stars set over the church in Revelation
12:1 represent the twelve apostles set over the
church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

There's no dichotomy between the church and the
twelve tribes of Israel, for all Jews in the church
remain Israel and part of the tribes in which they
were born (Romans 11:1), and all Gentiles in the
church have been grafted into the good olive tree of
Israel (Romans 11:24, cf. Jeremiah 11:16), the Jews'
own olive tree (Romans 11:24b), and so have been
grafted into the various tribes of Israel (cf.
Ezekiel 47:41-43). All Gentiles in the church are the
seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:29), fellow citizens in
Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19).

So the whole church is the twelve tribes of Israel
(Revelation 21:9b,12b). This is necessary because
the new covenant by which the church is saved
(Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians
3:6, Hebrews 9:15) is made only with Israel (Jeremiah
31:31-34).

Not only is the woman in Revelation 12 the church, so
is the "man child", who is caught up to the throne of
God right before the 42-month world reign of the
Antichrist begins (Revelation 12:5-6), and who
represents the 144,000 male virgins part of the church
(Revelation 14:4) being caught up to the throne
(Revelation 14:5) after they've gone through the first
half of the tribulation, consisting of the seal events
of Revelation 6 and the first six trumpet events of
Revelation chapters 8-9. The 144,000 part of the
church will be sealed for protection before the
trumpet events begin (Revelation 7:3-4, cf. 9:4).

After the 144,000 part of the church is caught up to
the throne of God (Revelation 12:5, 14:5), the rest
of the church on the earth will either flee into
protected wilderness places during the reign of the
Antichrist (Revelation 12:6), or be trapped in the
cities to suffer the wrath of Satan (Revelation 12:17,
cf. 2:10) and be captured and beheaded by the
Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4).

It does make sense that the church would run and hide
from the Antichrist, as in Revelation 12:6, for the
church is commanded to flee from persecution (Matthew
10:23), and specifically commanded to flee when it
sees the Antichrist commit the abomination of
desolation (Matthew 24:15-16), which is the event of
Daniel 11:31,36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4. Also, it's
a general truth that when the wicked rise, men hide
themselves (Proverbs 28:28,12). A prudent man
foresees the evil and hides himself (Proverbs 22:3,
27:12).

Daniel 11:32b-33a refers to some of the Christians
who will be trapped in the cities when the abomination
of desolation occurs (Daniel 11:31), but who will be
empowered by God to do amazing things and teach a lot
of people, before they are killed or captured (Daniel
11:33b). Some of them will be tortured (Daniel 11:35,
cf. Revelation 2:10).

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

In Revelation 12:1, the church is seen clothed with
the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), just as later
she is seen clothed with righteousness (Revelation
19:8). Only those with faith in Jesus have
righteousness (Romans 3:22-26), and no one with faith
in Jesus is outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

In Matthew 24:16, those in Judaea are those in the
many churches which are in Judaea today, just as
there were churches in Judaea in the first century
(Galatians 1:22).

The twelve stars set over the church in Revelation
12:1 represent the twelve apostles set over the
church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

There's no dichotomy between the church and the
twelve tribes of Israel, for all Jews in the church
remain Israel and part of the tribes in which they
were born (Romans 11:1), and all Gentiles in the
church have been grafted into the good olive tree of
Israel (Romans 11:24, cf. Jeremiah 11:16), the Jews'
own olive tree (Romans 11:24b), and so have been
grafted into the various tribes of Israel (cf.
Ezekiel 47:41-43). All Gentiles in the church are the
seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:29), fellow citizens in
Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19).

So the whole church is the twelve tribes of Israel
(Revelation 21:9b,12b). This is necessary because
the new covenant by which the church is saved
(Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians
3:6, Hebrews 9:15) is made only with Israel (Jeremiah
31:31-34).

Not only is the woman in Revelation 12 the church, so
is the "man child", who is caught up to the throne of
God right before the 42-month world reign of the
Antichrist begins (Revelation 12:5-6), and who
represents the 144,000 male virgins part of the church
(Revelation 14:4) being caught up to the throne
(Revelation 14:5) after they've gone through the first
half of the tribulation, consisting of the seal events
of Revelation 6 and the first six trumpet events of
Revelation chapters 8-9. The 144,000 part of the
church will be sealed for protection before the
trumpet events begin (Revelation 7:3-4, cf. 9:4).

After the 144,000 part of the church is caught up to
the throne of God (Revelation 12:5, 14:5), the rest
of the church on the earth will either flee into
protected wilderness places during the reign of the
Antichrist (Revelation 12:6), or be trapped in the
cities to suffer the wrath of Satan (Revelation 12:17,
cf. 2:10) and be captured and beheaded by the
Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4).

It does make sense that the church would run and hide
from the Antichrist, as in Revelation 12:6, for the
church is commanded to flee from persecution (Matthew
10:23), and specifically commanded to flee when it
sees the Antichrist commit the abomination of
desolation (Matthew 24:15-16), which is the event of
Daniel 11:31,36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4. Also, it's
a general truth that when the wicked rise, men hide
themselves (Proverbs 28:28,12). A prudent man
foresees the evil and hides himself (Proverbs 22:3,
27:12).

Daniel 11:32b-33a refers to some of the Christians
who will be trapped in the cities when the abomination
of desolation occurs (Daniel 11:31), but who will be
empowered by God to do amazing things and teach a lot
of people, before they are killed or captured (Daniel
11:33b). Some of them will be tortured (Daniel 11:35,
cf. Revelation 2:10).

Don't be surprised here, but we will just have to continue to disagree. Daniel 11:31 doesn't say a thing about Christians being trapped in the cities..although I am sure some will be, as there are Christians living in the Holy Land. Those fleeing to the mountains are the remnant, and that is what Matt 24:16 is referring to. God doesn't turn to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles happens. This has to happen somewhere right at the end of the tribulation when God turns to Israel. This mountain that Jesus is going to touch down on is the Mt of Olives where the remnant are going to flee to:
Zech 14:4-5 ~ And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD "my" God shall come (Zechariah's God), and all the saints with thee.
This is when we fight the antichrist armies at Christ's return. The remnant have fled to the mountains right after the abomination of desolation during the tribulation (Matt 24:15-16)...not us!! Christ splits the mountain, and they go through to the valley from the mountains where they were. They flee, Christ comes, we are changed, and the remnant are saved...simple. You have a "nerdy" weak view of the Lords church. Here we are with His Holy Spirit on the inside of us, and we run for all it's worth..geesh!!!!!! No one in biblical history that I can think of has ever ran in the face of diversity. Try reading Fox's Book of Martyers. These were Protestants from the 16th century that were tortured to death. Some were sawed assunder and burnt at the stake while they were still preaching the gospel in these situations. Noah didn't run, Stephen didn't run from the stoning, David didn't run from the giant, Lot and his family didn't run from Soddom, but watched it destroyed. Have fun with the remnant Bible2 lol.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This is when we fight the antichrist armies at Christ's return. The remant have fled to the mountains during the tribulation...not us!! They flee, Christ comes, we are changed, and the remnant are saved...simple.

I am ready to Fight!!! Bring it on!!!!

zeph 1:7 Be-hushed! from faces/before of my-Lord YHWH, that near Day of YHWH. That YHWH prepares a Sacrifice, He sanctifies ones-being-Called/07121 qara' of Him. 8 And He becomes in Day of sacrifice of YHWH.........

Reve 17:14 These with the lamb-kin shall be battling, and the lamb-kin shall be conquering them. That Lord of Lords He is, and King of Kings. And the-ones with Him called-ones/klhtoi <2822> and elect-ones/eklektoi <1588> and faithful-ones

 

[Bible2]

We shouldn't be surprised by disagreement, but we
don't have to continue to disagree (1 Corinthians 1:10).

---


While Daniel 11:31 doesn't refer to Christians
getting trapped in the cities at the abomination of
desolation (or shortly thereafter), many Christians
could still get trapped, for the Antichrist could
block the roads leading out of the cities, and circle
the cities with flying drones to shoot anyone trying
to flee off-road, whether by car or by foot. He could
then round up all of the Christians in the cities and
imprison and behead them (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13,
20:4).

--

There are Christians living in Judaea today, and they
are commanded to flee into the mountains when they
see the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15-16),
probably because the Antichrist will start his
persecution against Christians there.

But the Antichrist will gain power over the entire
world (Revelation 13:7b), not just Judaea, so the
Antichrist's war against Christians (Revelation
13:7-10) will be worldwide. Christians will be hated
and killed in every nation (Matthew 24:9-13). So
Christians in every nation need to be prepared to
flee into mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16),
wilderness places (Revelation 12:6), when they see
the abomination of desolation.

Those fleeing into the mountains, the wilderness, in
Matthew 24:16 and Revelation 12:6 are the remnant of
Christians who will have survived the first half of
the tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-9).

---

God won't turn to one blinded part of elect Israel
until the fulness of the Gentiles happens (Romans
11:25-31). This probably will happen sometime during
the tribulation, for God will turn to the one blinded
part of elect Israel at the second coming (Romans
11:26, Zechariah 12:10-14), which will happen
immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 12:29-30).

God has already turned to other parts of elect Israel
which aren't blinded, for he turned to Israel at the
very start of the church (Acts 2:36-42); indeed, the
church was started by Israelite apostles (e.g. Romans
11:1). And parts of elect Israel have been saved ever
since that time, down until this day (e.g. "Jews For
Jesus"). So it's not like Jews can't get saved now;
it's just one group of them that will remain blinded
until the second coming (Romans 11:25-31).

And there is no dichotomy between the church and
Israel, for Jews in the church remain Israel
(Romans 11:1), and Gentiles in the church have been
grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians
2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). So the whole church is
Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b). This is necessary
because the new covenant by which the church is saved
(Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians
3:6, Hebrews 9:15) is made only with Israel (Jeremiah
31:31-34).

---

The mountain that Jesus is going to touch down on at
his second coming is the Mount of Olives (Zechariah
14:4, Acts 1:11-12). The Mount will split in two
and a valley will be created through which the Jews
in Jerusalem will flee (Zechariah 14:4b-5) a great
battle going on there between all the armies of the
world on the one hand and Jesus on the other
(Zechariah 14:2-3, Revelation 19:19-21, cf. 16:12-16).

---

In Zechariah 14:5, "the LORD my God" is YHWH, who is
the God of the church, for Jesus was quoting from
Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:18b in Mark
12:29-30; and Jesus himself is YHWH (cf. John 10:11 &
Psalms 23:1, Luke 18:19; Zechariah 14:3-4), one with
the Father (John 10:30).

---

The church won't fight the Antichrist's armies at
Christ's return. Christ will tread the winepress alone
(Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15). The church will just
watch, from behind him (Revelation 19:14).

---

Zechariah 14:5 isn't the same event as Matthew 24:16,
for Zechariah 14:5 won't happen until the second
coming, while Matthew 24:16, which is at the same
time as Revelation 12:6, will happen 1,335 days
before the second coming, at the abomination of
desolation (Matthew 24:15-16, Daniel 12:11-12,
Revelation 16:15).

Zechariah 14:5 happens after Christ has already
landed (Zechariah 14:4). Before he lands, the church
will be caught up into the clouds to meet him in the
air (1 Thessalonians 4:17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1,
Matthew 24:31) to be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark
13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds
before the church mounts white horses and comes back
down from the clouds with Jesus as he wages war
(Revelation 19:14-21).

---

Someone doesn't have a nerdy, weak view of the church
for pointing out that the church is commanded to flee
into the mountains at the abomination of desolation
(Matthew 24:15-16), and that the church will flee into
the wilderness at that time, which will be the start
of the Antichrist's 3.5-year world-reign (Revelation
12:6, 13:5b), for the church has always been commanded
to flee persecution (Matthew 10:23), and Paul the
apostle fled persecution (Acts 17:5-15).

This fleeing isn't commanded so that the church will be
seen as nerdy or weak, but so that the church can
continue to preach where it isn't being persecuted and
where people need to hear the gospel (Matthew 10:23).
Why waste time fighting with people in one place who
don't want to hear the gospel when there are so many
other people in other places who haven't heard it yet
and will be willing to hear it?

It just makes sense to move on whenever persecution
arises, not only so that others can hear the gospel
but so that one doesn't overly harden the hearts of
the people who are doing the persecuting. Once
unbelievers get hostile against someone who is
preaching to them, they aren't going to suddenly
cool down if the person preaching just stands there
and keeps on preaching to them; they're going to
get madder and madder, harden their hearts more and
more against the preaching, to where they might
never give any other preacher a chance in the future.
But if a preacher calmly walks away when hostility
starts, the angry hearts of the unbelievers can
begin to cool down right away, so that their hearts
could be willing to give another preacher in the
future a chance.

So it just makes sense to walk away whenever
persecution arises, not out of nerdiness or weakness,
but cool calculation, for the benefit of others.

No one has said that believers should ever "run" away
from anything in the sense of literally running like
a frightened deer, for that can incite the attack-mode
of persecutors no less than it incites the attack-mode
of dogs. But simply walking away calmly and coolly
from a persecutor, without any fear whatsoever, can
help a persecutor to cool down. And if a persecutor
comes after a believer anyway and, say, hits him, then
the believer should calmly turn around and turn the
other cheek to show that he has no intention of
fighting the persecutor (Matthew 5:39), and also to
show that he has no fear of the persecutor. And if he
gets hit again, he should simply try to walk away again
until the persecutor tires of following him.

---

Fox's Book of Martyrs refers to people who were killed
for their faith. It refers to people who were captured
and usually imprisoned or tied up so that they couldn't
walk away from the persecution. This is how it will be
for those in the church who won't or can't flee from
the cities when they see the abomination of desolation:
they'll be captured and beheaded by the Antichrist
(Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4).

---

Noah wouldn't have walked away from any persecution he
may have suffered while building the ark, because he
had to stay and build the ark if he and his family were
to survive the approaching flood.

Stephen could have tried to calmly walk away from his
stoning (Acts 7:59), but the enraged mob could have
surrounded him on all sides and pushed him back, into
the center, until he fell down from the blows of the
stones. Jesus calmly walked away from an enraged mob
that was about to kill him (Luke 4:29-30), so that
he could teach other people somewhere else (Luke 4:31).

David didn't walk away from the giant because he was
under the old covenant, where it was okay to hate and
kill the enemies of Israel (1 Samuel 17:45-54).
Indeed, it was David who intentionally looked for a
fight with the giant (1 Samuel 17:32). But under the
new covenant, believers must love their enemies
(Matthew 5:43-44) and never fight against them
physically (2 Corinthians 10:3-5), even in revenge if
they're physically hit by their enemies (Matthew
5:39). They that take up the sword shall perish with
the sword (Matthew 26:52).

The Bible doesn't say that Lot and his family were
persecuted in Sodom before the angels arrived. And
after they arrived, Lot's house got surrounded by
a mob (Genesis 19:4) which was about to break down
his door (Genesis 19:9). So Lot and his family
couldn't have walked away; they were trapped in their
house. It was only by a miracle performed by the
angels that Lot and his faimly weren't all killed
(Genesis 19:11).

 

[HumbleServant94]

I have often wondered if there would be any significant difference between pre-tribbers going through the tribulation then post trib believers..which I am post. The bible states in John 8:32... And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Does that mean that those who do not see the truth are in more serious peril during the tribulation then those who are post who have received the truth?
The reason that I have these questions is because I was pre-trib for 35 years..post for about 5 years now. When I was pre-trib, it seemed like I had less worries about what was coming on the earth because I wouldn't be here. When I first discovered that post trib catching away was the truth, I was in shock for awhile, but now I am at peace knowing what to expect...and actually more grateful to God for showing me the truth since it has sunk in. In 2 Tim 4:3-4 it states this... For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4) And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. Now I believe that this has been going on since "whoever" started the pre-trib "fable." It has followed a long line of well known bible scholars/teachers such as John Darby, even as most recent, Hal Lindsay, Tim LaHay, and even preachers are expounding it on the Christian channels on TV. John Hagee, the pompous hypocrite that he is, said one day while I was watching 3 years ago, that the post trib rapture is the biggest lie that Satan ever perpetrated. He even said..DON'T YOU BELIEVE IT!! I haven't watched him since.
Now, I am wondering if people that follow this teaching and believe in a pre-trib rapture are going to be totally blind sided once the tribulation hits. God expects every one of us to search His Word for ourselves, and not rely on the truth of mans gospel from the pulpit, or what we have heard from our families carried down to us. Will this be considered believing a Satanic deception and pay the penalty in the end? If they can't even see the post trib rapture in the Word, will they even know who the Antichrist is once he is revealed? The bible doesn't really say anything about believing a "time line" lie, but it does say something about believing unsound doctrine. I DO believe that Satan started this lie for a very good reason...what is that reason and for what purpose?
I do believe that those who are full of what Word will know what is going on once this starts..unless they freak out thinking..OH NO, the rapture didn't happen. What do I do now??!! These are just some thoughts that I have had roaming through my head for awhile.

Personally, I'm a pre-trib believer. I know that you are offended by what John Hagee said, but it is really offending for me for you to say that it's all a lie. Besides, what BW said was what I was going to say, so there you go. I'm not going more into this.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Don't be surprised here, but we will just have to continue to disagree. Daniel 11:31 doesn't say a thing about Christians being trapped in the cities..although I am sure some will be, as there are Christians living in the Holy Land. Those fleeing to the mountains are the remnant, and that is what Matt 24:16 is referring to. God doesn't turn to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles happens. This has to happen somewhere right at the end of the tribulation when God turns to Israel. This mountain that Jesus is going to touch down on is the Mt of Olives where the remnant are going to flee to:
Zech 14:4-5 ~ And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD "my" God shall come (Zechariah's God), and all the saints with thee.
This is when we fight the antichrist armies at Christ's return. The remnant have fled to the mountains right after the abomination of desolation during the tribulation (Matt 24:15-16)...not us!! Christ splits the mountain, and they go through to the valley from the mountains where they were. They flee, Christ comes, we are changed, and the remnant are saved...simple. You have a "nerdy" weak view of the Lords church. Here we are with His Holy Spirit on the inside of us, and we run for all it's worth..geesh!!!!!! No one in biblical history that I can think of has ever ran in the face of diversity. Try reading Fox's Book of Martyers. These were Protestants from the 16th century that were tortured to death. Some were sawed assunder and burnt at the stake while they were still preaching the gospel in these situations. Noah didn't run, Stephen didn't run from the stoning, David didn't run from the giant, Lot and his family didn't run from Soddom, but watched it destroyed. Have fun with the remnant Bible2 lol.

Point to one scripture that says the church fights the anti-christ's armies.


Prove that Matt 24 is referring to the reign of the anti-christ. The words "Abomination of Desolation" are not found in Revelation.

 

[&Abel]

they are in daniel though

 

[HisdaughterJen]

they are in daniel though

Yes. I'm not saying that the abomination didn't/doesn't happen...I'm saying that Matt 24 is not talking about the anti-christ.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Personally, I'm a pre-trib believer. I know that you are offended by what John Hagee said, but it is really offending for me for you to say that it's all a lie. Besides, what BW said was what I was going to say, so there you go. I'm not going more into this.

The pre-trib rapture is a lie. If people can't understand that Jesus is only coming one time in the clouds with the sound of the trumpet in Matt 24:29-31, then there is only one explanation...mass delusion. There is nowhere in scripture that states that He is coming back again for the remnant with another trumpet sounding. J-E-S-U-S = ONE TIME COMING...Immediately after the tribulation. If that offends you, I can't help that. The truth is the truth!!

 

[HumbleServant94]

The pre-trib rapture is a lie. If people can't understand that Jesus is only coming one time in the clouds with the sound of the trumpet in Matt 24:29-31, then there is only one explanation...mass delusion. There is nowhere in scripture that states that He is coming back again for the remnant with another trumpet sounding. J-E-S-U-S = ONE TIME COMING...Immediately after the tribulation. If that offends you, I can't help that. The truth is the truth!!

Then I guess you should know that the truth is the fact that post-trib is a lie. As said before, it removes the hope. The rapture is called the BLESSED HOPE. Plus in the Bible Jesus says it will happen quickly when no one expects it. That would have to be an ordinary day. Not during the tribulation. Honestly! It comes before!