Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[Big Mouth Nana]

more exactly, post trib say that pre trib are responsible for christians and others believing that the ac is Jesus, because post trib say that ac comes first
but pre trib do not only say that Jesus comes first- rapture- but that He comes in the clouds as is said in Gods written word
obama and the other ac canditates includind satan do not come in the clouds of heaven, only Christ comes in this manner

Post trib doesn't say that pre-trib are responsible for Christians believing that the AC is Jesus. Where you got that is anyones guess. Satan is the only one who can make a person believe a lie...a Satanic delusion. The Antichrist does come first as plainly written in scripture, not Christ coming first...who is deluded here? Christ comes immediately after the tribulation according to Matt 24:29-31. The abomination of desolation happens in Matt 24:15, at the beginning of the tribulation and before we leave.
Matt 24:33 plainly says, So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. That "it" that it is talking about is Jesus' return.

 

[&Abel]

the man of lawlessness does not claim to be jesus or the jewish messiah

daniel 11 is clear that not only will he exalt himself above every so called god and the one and only true god but he will show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant(hes going to be enraged with the holy covenant and probably Israel in general)

the world will follow him because of his overwhelming power "who is able to make war with him?"

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

the man of lawlessness does not claim to be jesus or the jewish messiah

daniel 11 is clear that not only will he exalt himself above every so called god and the one and only true god but he will show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant(hes going to be enraged with the holy covenant and probably Israel in general)

the world will follow him because of his overwhelming power "who is able to make war with him?"

2 Thess 2:4 ~ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
A lot of people do not distinguish between God and Jesus...actually, they are the same person and looked at the same way. Some will think that he is Jesus, and Israel will believe that he is the Messiah.

 

[&Abel]

how could they think hes jesus or the jewish messiah when he encourages them to forsake their beliefs?

he will display himself as god but not any known god(he'll claim to be above them all)

hes going to speak monstrous things against god of gods

people are not going to think hes jesus

 

[Super Kal]

simple, &Abel... miraculous signs and wonders.
don't forget, even Satan was an angel of light at one point... in fact, he was at the left hand of God.

the Bible itself says exactly what will happen (2 Thessalonians 2:4)
"He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god and object of worship. As a result, he seats himself in the sanctuary of God and himself declares that he is God"

He does have that ability, and people are going to fall for it... It's our job to keep God's Word in oru mind so that we won't be decieved.

 

[&Abel]

he will claim to be god and ppl will follow him but he won't claim to be jesus and I don't believe ppl will believe hes jesus...and they won't think hes the jewish messiah either

I believe hes going to try and convince ppl the god of the bible is false

hes going to appeal to those who are not believers in jesus and don't want jesus to be real...he will appeal to their lust for us to be wrong and there naturalistic mindset(they will only believe because of what they see)

those signs could be the great power and authority he gains over the earth(at least in part)

hes going to encourage ppl to abandon their faith in the god of the bible(it specifically says that he'll speak monstrous things against him)

 

[Super Kal]

&Abel, what you or I believe in doesn't matter whatsoever... the only thing that matters when it comes to God is His Word, and nothing else.

if God said the man will proclaim to be God in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, it's the truth, because Christ said "heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall never pass away" (Matthew 24:35)

 

[&Abel]

20"Then in his place one will arise who will (Y)send an oppressor through the [a]Jewel of his kingdom; yet within a few days he will be shattered, though not in anger nor in battle.
21"In his place a despicable person will arise, on whom the honor of kingship has not been conferred, but he will come in a time of tranquility and (Z)seize the kingdom by intrigue.
22"The overflowing (AA)forces will be flooded away before him and shattered, and also the prince of the covenant.
23"After an alliance is made with him he will practice deception, and he will go up and gain power with a small force of people.
24"In a time of tranquility he will enter the (AB)richest parts of the realm, and he will accomplish what his fathers never did, nor his ancestors; he will distribute plunder, booty and possessions among them, and he will devise his schemes against strongholds, but only for a time.
25"He will stir up his strength and courage against the (AC)king of the South with a large army; so the king of the South will mobilize an extremely large and mighty army for war; but he will not stand, for schemes will be devised against him.
26"Those who eat his choice food will destroy him, and his army will (AD)overflow, but many will fall down slain.
27"As for both kings, their hearts will be intent on (AE)evil, and they will (AF)speak lies to each other at the same table; but it will not succeed, for the (AG)end is still to come at the appointed time.
28"Then he will return to his land with much plunder; but his heart will be set against the holy covenant, and he will take action and then return to his own land.
29"At the appointed time he will return and come into the South, but this last time it will not turn out the way it did before.
30"For ships of (AH)Kittim will come against him; therefore he will be disheartened and will return and become enraged at the holy covenant and take action; so he will come back and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant.
31"Forces from him will arise, (AI)desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice And they will set up the (AJ)abomination of desolation.
32"By (AK)smooth words he will turn to godlessness those who act wickedly toward the covenant, but the people who know their God will display (AL)strength and take action.
33"(AM)Those who have insight among the people will give understanding to the many; yet they will (AN)fall by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plunder for many days.
34"Now when they fall they will be granted a little help, and many will (AO)join with them in (AP)hypocrisy.
35"Some of those who have insight will fall, in order to (AQ)refine, (AR)purge and make them (AS)pure until the (AT)end time; because it is still to come at the appointed time.
36"Then the king will (AU)do as he pleases, and he will exalt and (AV)magnify himself above every god and will (AW)speak monstrous things against the (AX)God of gods; and he will prosper until the (AY)indignation is finished, for that which is (AZ)decreed will be done.
37"He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the desire of women, nor will he show regard for any other god; for he will magnify himself above them all.

 

[Super Kal]

sooo... you're saying God (since He wrote the Bible) is a liar and contradicts Himself... is that what you're saying?

 

[&Abel]

no you've simply misinterpreted the passage

if you would have taken my advice and read daniel 11 you would know this

hes going to present himself as god...hes just not going to claim to be of the god of the bible(or any other "god")

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I agree with "&Abel".

He is not going to claim to be Jesus or YHWH or any other god. He's so proud that he claims to be above every other god and all that is worshipped as the Bible states.

People forget that many religions have a Messianic figure or god that they are waiting for. If some being claims to be god and backs it up with miraculous signs while dissing the One True God (which the world hates anyway), it won't take much for people to believe the lie because they WANT to believe it.

Islam is waiting for their mahdi. Hinduism is waiting for ...well, just about any being that claims to be a god or the incarnation of a god. Judaism and Christianity are waiting for a savior.

This anti-christ guy will blaspheme God, slander God and those who live in heaven...he'll be anti-christian and by association, anti-Jewish as well. Since Israel is still mostly blinded, 2/3 are predicted to believe the lie according to Zechariah. I was told once by a Jewish guy that they are not expecting the Son of God, they are expecting an annointed man like Moses to be their savior. So, when a man steps into the temple and declares himself to be God, people who have come to know the truth will know what's going on while people of other religions will fall for it.

&Abel is right. He will NOT claim to be Jesus. The devil thinks he's above Jesus, above God himself. He's not going to pretend to be anyone but stake the claim that he is God above all gods and since people need signs and wonders, he'll provide signs and wonders and people will fall for it.

I don't think I've ever read one scripture that says the anti-christ will claim to be Jesus himself...has anyone else come across a scripture like that?

 

[Super Kal]

how am I misinterpreting it when it clearly says "himself declares that he is God"?
is simply says that, through and through, you don't have to look into it at all...

and you also have to consider the world today...

this beast can be proud all it wants, but unless it doesn't have the proof to back it up, people are going to think this beast is nuts, and does that happen?... no... it says people will be astonished and follow after the beast... how exactly are people going to follow it if all it does is talk the talk and never walk the walk?

the one reason people don't believe that there is a God is because they don't see hard evidence, such as miracles, signs, and wonders... skeptics need hard, cold, facts and evidence to be convinced... has Satan been able to do that in the past and convince the world to believe that there is no God?... of course. Satan is gonna need hard evidence to prove his lie and make people believe that he says who he is is true (even though it's not), so it could a combination of both... not just saying he is above everything else, but also having the "proof" to back it up, and people will fall for it because people don't read the Bible.

this is simply the way I see it... for me in my life, I was a skeptic, and I had to have proof that God did exist, and He gave it to me... Satan does offer the same experience, except it will be completely false.


most of that, though, is, of course, the futurist view... something I don't personally believe in

 

[HisdaughterJen]

how am I misinterpreting it when it clearly says "himself declares that he is God"?
is simply says that, through and through, you don't have to look into it at all...

and you also have to consider the world today...

this beast can be proud all it wants, but unless it doesn't have the proof to back it up, people are going to think this beast is nuts, and does that happen?... no... it says people will be astonished and follow after the beast... how exactly are people going to follow it if all it does is talk the talk and never walk the walk?

the one reason people don't believe that there is a God is because they don't see hard evidence, such as miracles, signs, and wonders... skeptics need hard, cold, facts and evidence to be convinced... has Satan been able to do that in the past and convince the world to believe that there is no God?... of course. Satan is gonna need hard evidence to prove his lie and make people believe that he says who he is is true (even though it's not), so it could a combination of both... not just saying he is above everything else, but also having the "proof" to back it up, and people will fall for it because people don't read the Bible.

this is simply the way I see it... for me in my life, I was a skeptic, and I had to have proof that God did exist, and He gave it to me... Satan does offer the same experience, except it will be completely false.


most of that, though, is, of course, the futurist view... something I don't personally believe in

2Th 2:4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Rev 13:6He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.

 

[Super Kal]

again, people aren't going to believe the talk if you don't have the proof to back it up, and that, Jen, is truth.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

again, people aren't going to believe the talk if you don't have the proof to back it up, and that, Jen, is truth.

Well, I wholeheartedly agree with that. The Bible says that there will be false miracles and a grand delusion that deceive people.

2Th 2:9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,
2Th 2:10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
2Th 2:11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie




Rev 13:13And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.

Interesting that one of the "miraculous signs" that convinces people that he is god is "causing fire to come down from heaven to earth". Now, that's interesting in light of what God does in Ezek 38/39 that convinces people that God has come/returned at the time that the sun/moon darken at the beginning of the day of the Lord/Wrath before God allows the anti-christ to begin to reign.

Eze 38:22I will execute judgment upon him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him.

Eze 39:6I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in safety in the coastlands, and they will know that I am the LORD




Consider this:
He COULD claim that he is the leader of a master race who has come to the earth to defend us from an enemy alien group who will arrive in 3 1/2 years to destroy the planet. I seriously think people would rather believe THAT lie than the truth that he is the anti-christ and that Christ will arrive 3 1/2 years later.
He would tell the world that there is no god but him and they'd believe it.
The devil has been setting the stage for such a lie with the Roswell thing, the UFO sightings, "alien" abductions, and crop circles for the last 60 years.

 

[&Abel]

think about it like this...to claim he is jesus would be helping jesus in a sense...even if ppl believed the deception of him being jesus they are still believing it because of their belief in jesus

satan wants to pull us away from jesus...to claim he was jesus would encourage ppl to read their bibles and realize who he is

even if this man doesn't know who he is(and I think he does and is ok with it) satan is still at work in him

and we have provided all the proof from the bible of what we are saying, you simply don't want to see it Kal

 

[A Witness]

think about it like this...to claim he is Jesus would be helping Jesus in a sense...even if ppl believed the deception of him being Jesus they are still believing it because of their belief in Jesus

The Muslims have two sets of books: the Qur'an and their Hadith. The Hadith say Issa (Jesus), who did not die in 30AD but rather was taken up into heaven by God, will return during the end-times. The Hadith say Jesus (Issa) will come down from the sky to the White Minaret in Damascus, Syria. At that point, he will first prove to the world he is Jesus by performing great miracles similar to those Jesus performed. Later, he will tell all the worlds Christians that he is the Christ of the NT and will say the Bible was written by men and was not his teachings.

My question is, In your opinion does this disagree with the Bible assuming the Muslim Issa is the false prophet (Land Beast) of Revelation 13:11-18? If you can point me to where this could be true or false in the Bible I would appreciate it.

 

[&Abel]

I don't believe hes going to claim to be a messiah only because to be a messiah is to be below the god that has sent you

he will claim to be the one and only god(top dog)...a god above all gods before him, just like satan said he would exalt himself above the heavens(or something to that effect)

it is possible though...I don't have any info for ya off hand but if I come across it I will post

definitely interesting thx for posting

 

[HisdaughterJen]

The Muslims have two sets of books: the Qur'an and their Hadith. The Hadith say Issa (Jesus), who did not die in 30AD but rather was taken up into heaven by God, will return during the end-times. The Hadith say Jesus (Issa) will come down from the sky to the White Minaret in Damascus, Syria. At that point, he will first prove to the world he is Jesus by performing great miracles similar to those Jesus performed. Later, he will tell all the worlds Christians that he is the Christ of the NT and will say the Bible was written by men and was not his teachings.

My question is, In your opinion does this disagree with the Bible assuming the Muslim Issa is the false prophet (Land Beast) of Revelation 13:11-18? If you can point me to where this could be true or false in the Bible I would appreciate it.

Well, I don't see where it is written in the Bible that the anti-christ beast or the false prophet beast come down from the sky at any point.

The fallen angels and the devil are cast down to the earth but the only one that comes from the sky is Jesus and there's nothing about a minaret in Damascus.

I think that Islam is just a distraction of the devil. It is distracting the world from the real beast until it takes control.

 

[Super Kal]

think about it like this...to claim he is jesus would be helping jesus in a sense...even if ppl believed the deception of him being jesus they are still believing it because of their belief in jesus

satan wants to pull us away from jesus...to claim he was jesus would encourage ppl to read their bibles and realize who he is

even if this man doesn't know who he is(and I think he does and is ok with it) satan is still at work in him

and we have provided all the proof from the bible of what we are saying, you simply don't want to see it Kal

&Abel, don't tell me what I do or don't want to see.
You do not know me.

2 Thessalonians says he will proclaim himself to be God...
that is God's Word, and I believe it.