Pre-destination???

[ticker]

Wow that's great!

Thanks so much for sharing that. That's very interesting.

God bless you!

 

[Nachtjager]

The problem with Calvinism or the "reformed" view, is that it's full of wonderful complex language and word play to explain away something that's painfully simple and flawed. "Predestined" and "foreordained" are two sides of the same coin. Those "elect" and "predestined" are chosen to go to heaven, those "foreordained" for judgement will go to hell. This supposedly leaves God's fairness and impartiallity intact. IT DOESN'T!

If I decide I want a cheeseburger today instead of chicken, then I have chosen the cheeseburger and decided to not choose the chicken. I HAVE MADE A CHOICE WHICH EFFECTS BOTH THINGS, not just one. If God, being sovereign and just, chooses to save just the elect and not others, then He has CHOSEN to send some to hell, not by justice, but by CHOICE! And if that is true, then God is not just and God is not sovereign. HE IS JUST AND SOVEREIGN! Therefore, Calvinism, penned by a guy in the 1600s, is likely incorrect in its interpretation of what Paul was trying to say. There can be no other spiritual or logical explanation, sorry.

Jesus is the key to salvation, the life ring that has been thrown into the world by a merciful God for drowning sinners to grab onto and be saved. The instrument of our salvation is there, we see it, and we must choose to accept the offer and be saved, or pass it by and trust to ourselves that we can make it on our own (and metaphorically drown). To say that God witholds throwing that life ring to all men is contrary to the entire New Testament teachings of Christ, and I'd rather believe HIM than believe a guy named Calvin. Certainly none of us deserve salvation because we're all sinners, but to say that "some will get it and some won't, just because, and that's the end of it" is ludicrous! MY Bible says this in 1 Timothy, Chapter 2

1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
8 I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.

I would remind Calvinists of the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector, where the righteous man stood in the temple thanking God that he was righteous and so much better than the lowly person on his knees begging for forgiveness. One man was convinced he was doing God's will and was holy, the other was humbly asking for God's grace, which one did JESUS say was correct?

God bless all, not trying to ruffle feathers, it just astounds me that so many Christians don't seem to understand the gravity of this issue.

 

[LoG]

God bless all, not trying to ruffle feathers, it just astounds me that so many Christians don't seem to understand the gravity of this issue.

I agree with you Nachtjager. Calvinism is a corruption of not only the scriptures but of the writings of Calvin himself.
I did a Google search of "did Calvin believe in Calvinism"
and came up with this site that quotes some of his writings. Calvin quotes

He calls all men to himself, without a single exception, and gives Christ to all, that we may be illumined by him. (Isaiah 3:295)

When we pray, we ought, according to the rule of charity, to include all. (Jeremiah 2:248)

God invites all indiscriminately to salvation through the Gospel, but the ingratitude of the world is the reason why this grace, which is equally offered to all, is enjoyed by few. (Synoptic Gospels 1:116)

As no man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open to all men; neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief. (Acts 1:92)

Though it is offered to all for salvation, it does not yield this fruit in any but the elect. (Synoptic Gospel. 2:257)

God ...shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to faith in Christ ...For Christ is made known and held out to the view of all, but the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens, that they may seek him by faith. (John 1:125)


Paul makes grace common to all men, not because it in fact extends to all, but because it is offered to all. (Romans 117-118)

Christ ... kindles for all indiscriminately the torch of his gospel; but all have not the eyes of their minds opened to see it, but on the contrary Satan spreads the veil of blindness over many. (General Epistles 273-274)

God commands [the gospel] to be offered indiscriminately to all. (Genesis 1:503)

[God]...commands his threatenings to be proposed to the elect, and reprobate, in common. (Genesis 1:255)

God's mercy is offered for the worst of men. (Four Last Books of Moses 3:240)

It is our duty to pray for all who trouble us; to desire the salvation of all men. (Psalm 4:283)


Yet it is highly useful to us, that the Evangelist introduces Christ exclaiming aloud, Let all who thirst come to me. For we infer from it that the invitation was not addressed to one or two persons only, or in a low and gentle whisper, but that this doctrine is proclaimed to all, in such a manner that none may be ignorant of it, but those who, of their own accord shutting their ears, will not receive this loud and distinct cry. (Comments on John 7:37)


It would have done us no good for Christ to have been given by the Father as the author of salvation, if He had not been available to all without distinction...We should know that salvation is openly displayed to all the human race, for in all reality He is called son of Noah and son of Adam... (Comment on Matthew 1:1-17; Luke 3: 23-38)

Seeing that in His Word He calls all alike to salvation, and this is the object of preaching, that all should take refuge in His faith and protection, it is right to say that He wishes all to gather to Him. Now the nature of the Word shows us that here there is no description of the secret counsel of God - just His wishes. Certainly those whom He wishes effectively to gather, He draws inwardly by His Spirit, and calls them not merely by man's outward voice. If anyone objects that it is absurd to split God's will, I answer that this is exactly our belief, that His will is one and undivided: but because our minds cannot plumb the profound depths of His secret election to suit our infirmity, the will of God is set before us as double. (Comment on Matthew 23:37)

And when he says the sin of the world he extends this kindness indiscriminately to the whole human race, that the Jews might not think the Redeemer has been sent to them alone...John, therefore, by speaking of the sin of the world in general, wanted to make us feel our own misery and exhort us to seek the remedy. Now it is for us to embrace the blessing offered to all, that each may make up his mind that there is nothing to hinder him from finding reconciliation in Christ if only, led by faith, he comes to Him. (Comment on John 1:29)

Paul makes grace common to all men, not because it in fact extends to all, but because it is offered to all. Although Christ suffered for the sins of the world, and is offered by the goodness of God without distinction to all men, yet not all receive him. (Comment on Romans 5:18)

Reading some of Calvins writings, I think he must be rolling in his grave because of what some men have done with them to substantiate Calvinism and Reformed theology.

 

[StephanStrategy]

The problem with Calvinism or the "reformed" view, is that it's full of wonderful complex language and word play to explain away something that's painfully simple and flawed. "Predestined" and "foreordained" are two sides of the same coin. Those "elect" and "predestined" are chosen to go to heaven, those "foreordained" for judgement will go to hell. This supposedly leaves God's fairness and impartiallity intact. IT DOESN'T!

But that is just it. God does not have to save anyone. He would be just a just and gracious to let all of us dies in our sins which is what we deserve. No one is going to hell because of God's choice, they go because of what they do. I would say God absolutely has the right to pick whooever He would and reject whosoever He would.

God chose Abrahm, not because Abraham "earned" the right to be chosen or because he said he would follow God. God came to him first and tols him to go to the land.

God chose Isaac over Ishmael, even though Abraham asked that Ishmael would be part of the covenant.

God even tells Israel that He chose them (Ezk. 20:5) and that He would make Himself known to them and bring them to the land.

Is it not God's right to chose whoever He would? Must He bow to our desires because we say so or because we think it unfair in our own minds?

If I decide I want a cheeseburger today instead of chicken, then I have chosen the cheeseburger and decided to not choose the chicken. I HAVE MADE A CHOICE WHICH EFFECTS BOTH THINGS, not just one. If God, being sovereign and just, chooses to save just the elect and not others, then He has CHOSEN to send some to hell, not by justice, but by CHOICE! And if that is true, then God is not just and God is not sovereign. HE IS JUST AND SOVEREIGN! Therefore, Calvinism, penned by a guy in the 1600s, is likely incorrect in its interpretation of what Paul was trying to say. There can be no other spiritual or logical explanation, sorry.

I disagree with you here. People are going to hell because they sin. It is only by God's grace that anyone is saved. Not by anything we do because there is nothing we can do that earns our salvation.

Jesus is the key to salvation, the life ring that has been thrown into the world by a merciful God for drowning sinners to grab onto and be saved. The instrument of our salvation is there, we see it, and we must choose to accept the offer and be saved, or pass it by and trust to ourselves that we can make it on our own (and metaphorically drown). To say that God witholds throwing that life ring to all men is contrary to the entire New Testament teachings of Christ, and I'd rather believe HIM than believe a guy named Calvin. Certainly none of us deserve salvation because we're all sinners, but to say that "some will get it and some won't, just because, and that's the end of it" is ludicrous! MY Bible says this in 1 Timothy, Chapter 2

1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
8 I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.

Titus 3:3-7 - Foe we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, decieved, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending out life in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, bt according to His mercy, by the washing of regenerationand renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

2 Timothy 1:8-9 - Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffeing for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,...

God chose us according to His own purpose not because we chose Him. How could we? We were broken, sinful, fallen, dead.

I would remind Calvinists of the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector, where the righteous man stood in the temple thanking God that he was righteous and so much better than the lowly person on his knees begging for forgiveness. One man was convinced he was doing God's will and was holy, the other was humbly asking for God's grace, which one did JESUS say was correct?

The man begging for forgiveness. I am failing to see your point here though. Are you saying that I am not or did not beg for God's forgiveness when I came to believe in Christ. Are people who believe in Reformed Theology incapable of being saved? I do get what your point is here.

God bless all, not trying to ruffle feathers, it just astounds me that so many Christians don't seem to understand the gravity of this issue.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here. We are not going to settle this issue anytime soon. This debate has gone on since the 1500's and will continue.

Don't worry, my feather's aren't ruffled and I hope yours are not either.

Mike

 

[Iosias]

If God predetermines some people to heaven, then He necessarily also predetermines all others to hell.

Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

I would advise you read through the Canons of Dordt

First Head of Doctrine - Divine Election and Reprobation

Article 1 - All Mankind Condemnable Before God​

Since all men have sinned in Adam, lie under the curse, and deserve eternal death, God would have done injustice to no one if He had willed to leave the whole human race in sin and under the curse, and to condemn it on account of its sin, according to these words of the apostle: that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God (Rom_3:19). All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom_3:23); and, the wages of sin is death (Rom_6:23).

Article 2 - The Sending of the Son of God​

But in this the love of God was made manifest, that He sent His only-begotten Son into the world, so that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life (1Jo_4:9; Joh_3:16).

Article 3 - The Preaching of the Gospel​

So that men may be brought to faith, God mercifully sends heralds of this most joyful message to whom He will and when He wills. By their ministry men are called to repentance and to faith in Christ crucified. For how are they to believe in Him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? And how can men preach unless they are sent? (Rom_10:14, Rom_10:15)

Article 4 - A Twofold Outcome​

The wrath of God remains upon those who do not believe this gospel. But those who receive it and embrace Jesus the Saviour with a true and living faith are delivered by Him from the wrath of God and from destruction, and are given eternal life.

Article 5 - The Cause of Unbelief, the Source of Faith​

The cause or guilt for this unbelief, as well as for all other sins, is by no means in God, but rather in man. Faith in Jesus Christ and salvation through Him, however, is the free gift of God, as it is written: By grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God (Eph_2:8). Similarly, It has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should . . . believe in Him (Phi_1:29).

Article 6 - God’s Eternal Decree​

That God in time confers the gift of faith on some, and not on others, proceeds from His eternal decree. For all His works He knows from eternity (Act_15:18), and He accomplishes all things according to the counsel of His will (Eph_1:11). According to this decree He graciously softens the hearts of the elect, no matter how hard they may be, and inclines them to believe; those not elected, however, He leaves in their own wickedness and hardness by a just judgment. And here especially is disclosed to us the profound, merciful, and at the same time just distinction between men equally worthy of condemnation, or that decree of election and reprobation which has been revealed in God’s Word. Although perverse, impure, and unstable men twist this decree to their own destruction, it provides unspeakable comfort for holy and God-fearing souls.

Article 7 - Election Defined​

Election is the unchangeable purpose of God whereby, before the foundation of the world, out of the whole human race, which had fallen by its own fault out of its original integrity into sin and perdition, He has, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His will, out of mere grace, chosen in Christ to salvation a definite number of persons, neither better nor more worthy than others, but with them involved in a common misery. He has also from eternity appointed Christ to be the Mediator and Head of all the elect and the foundation of salvation and thus He decreed to give to Christ those who were to be saved, and effectually to call and draw them into His communion through His Word and Spirit. He decreed to give them true faith in Him, to justify them, to sanctify them, and, after having powerfully kept them in the fellowship of His Son, finally to glorify them, for the demonstration of His mercy and the praise of the riches of his glorious grace. As it is written: God chose us in Christ, before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. He destined us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved (Eph_1:4, Eph_1:5, Eph_1:6). And elsewhere, Those whom He predestined He also called; and those whom He called He also justified; and those whom He justified He also glorified (Rom_8:30).

Article 8 - One Decree of Election​

There are not various decrees of this election, but it is one and the same decree concerning all those that are to be saved under both the Old and the New Testament. For Scripture declares that the good pleasure, purpose, and counsel of the will of God is one. According to this purpose He has chosen us from eternity both to grace and to glory, both to salvation and to the way of salvation, which He prepared for us that we should walk in it (Eph_1:4, Eph_1:5; Eph_2:10).

Article 9 - Election Not Based on Foreseen Faith​

This election is not based on foreseen faith, the obedience of faith, holiness, or any other good quality of disposition, as a cause or condition in man required for being chosen, but men are chosen to faith, the obedience of faith, holiness, and so on. Election, therefore, is the fountain of every saving good, from which flow faith, holiness, and other saving gifts, and finally eternal life itself, as its fruits and effects. This the apostle teaches when he says, He chose us (not because we were, but) that we should be holy and blameless before Him (Eph_1:4).

Article 10 - Election Based on God’s Good Pleasure​

The cause of this gracious election is solely the good pleasure of God. This good pleasure does not consist in this, that out of all possible conditions God chose certain qualities or actions of men as a condition for salvation, but in this, that out of the common mass of sinners he adopted certain persons to be His own possession. For it is written, Though they (the children) were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, and so on, she (namely, Rebecca), was told, "The elder will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (Rom_9:11, Rom_9:12, Rom_9:13) And, as many as were ordained to eternal life believed (Act_13:48).

Article 11 - Election Unchangeable​

As God Himself is most wise, unchangeable, allknowing and almighty, so His election can neither be undone and redone, nor changed, revoked, or annulled; neither can the elect be cast away, nor their number be diminished.

Article 12 - The Assurance of Election​

The elect in due time, though in various stages and in different measure, are made certain of this their eternal and unchangeable election to salvation. They attain this assurance, however, not by inquisitively prying into the hidden and deep things of God, but by observing in themselves, with spiritual joy and holy delight, the unfailing fruits of election pointed out in the Word of God - such as a true faith in Christ, a childlike fear of God, a godly sorrow for their sins, and a hungering and thirsting after righteousness.

Article 13 - The Value of This Assurance​

The awareness and assurance of this election provide the children of God with greater reason for daily humbling themselves before God, for adoring the depth of His mercies, for cleansing themselves, and for fervently loving Him in turn who first so greatly loved them. It is therefore not true at all that this doctrine of election and the reflection on it makes them lax in observing the commands of God or falsely secure. In the just judgment of God, this usually happens to those who rashly presume to have the grace of election, or idly and boldly chatter about it, but refuse to walk in the ways of the elect.

Article 15 - Reprobation Described​

Holy Scripture illustrates and recommends to us this eternal and undeserved grace of our election, especially when it further declares that not all men are elect but that some have not been elected, or have been passed by in the eternal election of God. Out of His most free, most just, blameless, and unchangeable good pleasure, God has decreed to leave them in the common misery into which they have by their own fault plunged themselves, and not to give them saving faith and the grace of conversion. These, having been left in their own ways and under His just judgment, God has decreed finally to condemn and punish eternally, not only on account of their unbelief but also on account of all their other sins, for the declaration of His justice. This is the decree of reprobation, which by no means makes God the author of sin (the very thought is blasphemous!), but rather declares Him an awesome, blameless, and just judge and avenger thereof.

 

[Markea]

But that is just it. God does not have to save anyone. He would be just a just and gracious to let all of us dies in our sins which is what we deserve. No one is going to hell because of God's choice, they go because of what they do. I would say God absolutely has the right to pick whooever He would and reject whosoever He would.

I think that this statement denies the very nature of who God is.. ie, His love.. and so if He is the Lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world.. this speaks to His love being preeminent in everything.

So, iow.. He knew beforehand the fall of his creation, and had already sold everything that He had so to speak in order to redeem His creation back to Himself.

God chose Abrahm, not because Abraham "earned" the right to be chosen or because he said he would follow God. God came to him first and tols him to go to the land.

And Abraham actually did what God had asked him to do.. even in offering his son.. and because Abraham believed God, it was accounted to him as righteousness.

God chose Isaac over Ishmael, even though Abraham asked that Ishmael would be part of the covenant.

This is because Ishmael was after the flesh, while Isaac was the son of promise.. it's a perfect picture of the Christian life too.. the flesh comes first, then we're sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise after we trust in Him.. the only heir is the Spirit.. the flesh is to be cast out.

 

[StephanStrategy]

I think that this statement denies the very nature of who God is.. ie, His love.. and so if He is the Lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world.. this speaks to His love being preeminent in everything.

Do not forget that God is totally just as well. Pslam 5 even tells us that He hates those who sin (verse 5). That is not speaking of the sin there but the sinner himself.

While He is love, that is true, He is also a Judge. People do not slide by, our sin had to be paid for by blood and death. Either our own or Christ's shed for us. It is that serious.

And Abraham actually did what God had asked him to do.. even in offering his son.. and because Abraham believed God, it was accounted to him as righteousness.

I was speaking of Gen. 12 here. God tells Abraham to go and Abraham goes. The only thing that God says about it is that He promises Abraham to make him into a great nation and to bless him to be a blessing. There is no qualifier here. God simply chose him.

Gen. 15 is the verse you are referring to.

This is because Ishmael was after the flesh, while Isaac was the son of promise.. it's a perfect picture of the Christian life too.. the flesh comes first, then we're sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise after we trust in Him.. the only heir is the Spirit.. the flesh is to be cast out.

True. It is also interesting to note that even though Abraham is told that the promise and the covenant is for Isaac, both of his sons are given the sign of the covenant (i.e. circumcised). But that is a discussion for another day on another board.

Mike

 

[WarriorAngel]

Poor St Augustine, had he known he would be misinterpretted..........

 

[Rick Otto]

Yeah,... Poor Jesus, Poor Peter, Poor Paul...

Poor God, eh?

 

[Markea]

Do not forget that God is totally just as well. Pslam 5 even tells us that He hates those who sin (verse 5). That is not speaking of the sin there but the sinner himself.

I fail to see the point because we're all sinners.. so that puts all of us squarely in the same position. God is justified in offering the free gift of salvation to all, and this is what scripture testifies to.. that it is UNTO ALL and UPON ALL those that believe..

While He is love, that is true, He is also a Judge. People do not slide by, our sin had to be paid for by blood and death. Either our own or Christ's shed for us. It is that serious.

Of course it's serious.. Christ didn't die for nothing.. He died for the sin of the world. So that all of Adam's race could be justified in Him.

[bible]Romans 5:18[/bible]

I was speaking of Gen. 12 here. God tells Abraham to go and Abraham goes. The only thing that God says about it is that He promises Abraham to make him into a great nation and to bless him to be a blessing. There is no qualifier here. God simply chose him.

And this is what FAITH actually is.. embracing the promises of God..

True. It is also interesting to note that even though Abraham is told that the promise and the covenant is for Isaac, both of his sons are given the sign of the covenant (i.e. circumcised). But that is a discussion for another day on another board.

Mike

Circumcision of the flesh, which is done with hands, isn't what saves.. it's the circumcision of the heart.. the circumcision made without hands.. it simply reiterates that the flesh isn't going to profit anything.. but rather the Spirit is heir of all.

 

[TheMimic]

Well its real simple little turkeys, God knows everything, past, present, future. We have freewill. Now God knows all things remember. Well there ya have it. simpler than puttin a shoe on a donkey.

 

[Silenus]

As I've been reading this thread, I've thought of a question that I don't think is off the subject. Don't take my Presbyterian icon to heart . . . I chose it because a test told me that, of all the denominations, that is the one to which I am the closest. I am not a Calvinist or the other one, I take the position that C.S. Lewis takes, that both free will and predestination exist but our definitions are inadequate and causing contradiction . . . that being said, here is my question . . .

Did Adam have free will, and not a compatibilist view of will but a libertarian view?

The reason I ask is because free will somewhere in the chain seems essential to fulfill biblical ideals of justice and to answer the problem of evil.

comments?

 

[TheMimic]

Yes, Adam and Eve had freewill...that is how they were able to choose the wrong.

 

[BBAS 64]

Poor St Augustine, had he known he would be misinterpretted..........

Good Day, WA

Hope you are well

Misinterpreted Ok I'll bite...

Intrepret this for me please...

What did He mean, then, in saying to them, "Ye are not of my sheep"? That He saw them predestined to everlasting destruction, not won to eternal life by the price of His own blood. Augustine on John 10, sheep discourse



In Him,

Bill

 

[Iosias]

Yes, Adam and Eve had freewill...that is how they were able to choose the wrong.

Quite true, they were made "able not to sin" however when they did sin and they died spiritually it meant that their will became in bondage to sin as Luther ably teaches in The Bondage of the WillI.

 

[emayarkay]

I spent a fair bit of time looking into all the scriptures on both sides of the argument without finding a conclusive argument. If pushed, I would sway toward the calvinist side of the argument.
I can't get past Romans 9 talking about God creating some to honour and some to dishonour and Him having mercy on whom he wills.
I also can't get by the scripture in Ephesians were we are told that faith is a gift from God. It takes faith to reach out to Jesus, but it is given as a gift (presumably to only some?)

 

[Rick Otto]

Try crossin' yer eyes & holdin' you're breath & run right past it!
I see people do it all the time without even thinkin' about it.

 

[Markea]

I can't get past Romans 9 talking about God creating some to honour and some to dishonour and Him having mercy on whom he wills.

Many calvinists use Romans 9 to support their doctrine.. which ultimately confuses ELECTION with SALVATION.. Romans 9 is speaking of election (ie, that's God's purpose according to election might stand), not salvation. Romans 10 actually speaks to salvation.. ie, whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I also think that many folks forget about the preceeding chapters in Romans when they come to Romans 9.. because the preceeding chapters teach us that ALL IN ADAM are condemned.. ie.. before we were saved, we too were vessels of wrath (dishonour) fit for destruction. So, it's not that God made some for honor and some for dishonour.. it's simply that we were ALL vessels which dishonoured Him, and then, after hearing the gospel, we placed our trust in Him, and He made us children of God.. vessels of honour.. and even a child of God can dishonour Christ.. if they're being carnal..

I also can't get by the scripture in Ephesians were we are told that faith is a gift from God. It takes faith to reach out to Jesus, but it is given as a gift (presumably to only some?)

And we're taught that faith comes by hearing.. and hearing (or understanding.. ie, I hear what you're saying) by the word of God.

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes.. not to everyone that is allowed to believe.

Paul says it like this..

[bible]Ephesians 1:13-14[/bible]

Notice that it was AFTER we trusted in Christ, AFTER we HEARD the GOSPEL of our salvation, that God sealed us with His Holy Spirit of promise..

This is salvation, and from the beginning God elected that all who place their trust in Christ, would be saved.

 

[ticker]

I bet God's having a good laugh right now watching us all trying to figure this out.

God bless you all!

 

[Rick Otto]

How is it Calvinists confuse election with what they're elected to - salvation?
Does Romans 10 tell who it is that actualy call upon the name of the Lord & are saved? Is it those who were placed in Christ before the foundation of the world - before any were born like Esaua & Jacob, so that election to salvation isn't based on anything they do?
Because Esau & Jacob hadn't done anything before God decided which one to love & which one to hate.

Calvinists don't teach that not all come under Adam's condemnation. It sounds almost as if you think they do.

Yes, the gift of faith comes by hearing.
Markea said:
"The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes.. not to everyone that is allowed to believe. "
Isn't everyone who believes, allowed to?
I thought grace allowed faith.
This doesn't sound right:
"This is salvation, and from the beginning God elected that all who place their trust in Christ, would be saved."
>It sounds like election is only about what would happen after anybody believed, but Romans clearly indicates election is about before anybody doing anything.
Ro 9:11 - (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth