Pre-destination???

[Easystreet]

I don’t know a single Calvinist who would deny a profession of faith is necessary, or belief in God, or that a decision needs to be made. The question is what causes us to do these things?

Take a look at Romans 8:

Verses 1-4: Without Christ we are in the sinful nature/mind and under the law of sin and death.
Verse 6-7: The sinful mind is both hostile to God and cannot submit to God’s law.
Verse 8: Those controlled by the sinful nature can not please God.

The problem with your view is that you force a definition on the text that is not there. Because man is sinful and commits sin and does not seek God does not speak to any ability within man to understand his state and accept the solution. Calvinism confuses the sinful state of man to mean inability. Just because man is running from God because of his sinful nature does not negate his capacity to know, reason, and accept a solution to his delema. Dead in sin and tresspasses is not the same as cessation of body and spirit. Man, in his living state, did not cease to have the cpacity to understand. Yes sin blinds and sin captivates but sin does not kill the ability to think. God prusues man and tells him you are a sinner and you are going to hell here is the solution to your problem will you accept my payment for your sinsick soul. Yes or No. Most say no. A few say yes.



Paul clearly tells us in verse 9 who has the sinful mind, who is hostile to God’s law, and who is unable to submit to God’s law. The complement of you, as indicated by the “You, however”. Verses 1-8 (especially 6-8) seem to be painting a picture of people in of themselves unable to turn to God. And verse 9 makes it clear his talking about unbelievers.

What about verses like John 6:44, John 6:65, 1 Corinthians 2:14?

No one can keep the law. No one can love God with all their heart, mind, and soul. That is impossible.

If a person could perfectly keep the law he would be saved. But no man except Christ was able to do that.

We know the state of all mankind. The solution is Christ. When one believes in the perfect sacrifice one is saved. It is not a question of man's sinful nature - that is absolutely so. It is a question of God's perfect sacrifice which makes it possible for all sinful men to accept God's provisions, or solution to his state.

 

[Markea]

Umm,... what isn't arbitrary about that? I only ask 'cause I know a guy who knows a guy who doesn't trust in Jesus.(iI's true, they're out there!)
I don't see how those who DO trust Him, aren't "certain individuals", tho.

What I mean when I say that it isn't arbitrary, is that God saves people for a reason.. for THE reason actually.. and that reason is because they trust in His Son for the forgiveness of their sins.. after they hear the gospel.. ie,

[bible]Ephesians 1:13-14[/bible]

IOW, God didn't seal these people for no reason at all, they were sealed with His Spirit of promise because they trusted in Him.

Others don't trust Him.. they might reject the love of the truth by which they too could be saved.. it's not that they couldn't be saved.. they rejected the very means of salvation which was available to them.

In fact, I can't imagine how anything in Creation could be UNcertain to an Omniscient, Omnipotent Creator, who in His determinate council, knows the number of hairs on our heads, & when a sparrow falls. He isn't merely clairvoyant about random chance, fixing a busted Creation, He knew what He was doing, before He did it.

I completely agree.. He seals those who do actually place their faith and trust in Him, after they hear and believe the gospel.

 

[Easystreet]

I Peter 1: 1 "chosen
2. according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Regardless of how you believe -- any statement that says Election is not based upon "foreknowledge" is Biblically incorrect.

The sticking point is what follows: by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood



So what is foreknowledge pointing to? Not election but " by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood:


Lets be frank, God has absolute knowledge will anyone dispute that?


If you are a Calvinist or Arminian or Neither (as I ) Foreknowledge just is. Before whatever with God foreknowledge is. God is all knowing and God was all knowing before He planned to plan. For God all is ever present but for us we are sequential.


We live in the realm of time and space and we relate do sequence of time and space. In that God has told us how to understand it in our terms then what is the big deal with all this belief that foreknowledge does not exist with reference to all that God says, and does?
For me the following written by Peter “ by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: is his way of saying a person must be saved or believe in Christ of which at that time they are saved. It was ordained by God that Christ would die and the Bible tells us He was slain from the foundation of the world. Look carefully at this verse: Eph. 1:4. just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
God sees us in Christ before the foundation of the world because God has absolute foreknowledge and your life is not surprise to Him. He was not caught off guard by your decision to trust in Christ. He saw you in Christ before He created this world.

Rev.13:8. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9. If any man have an ear, let him hear.

 

[Rick Otto]

What I mean when I say that it isn't arbitrary, is that God saves people for a reason.. for THE reason actually.. and that reason is because they trust in His Son for the forgiveness of their sins.. after they hear the gospel.. ie, [bible]Ephesians 1:13-14[/bible]

IOW, God didn't seal these people for no reason at all, they were sealed with His Spirit of promise because they trusted in Him.
>>>>>"Man, Markea! I thought the reason the they trust in His Son is because in His mercy on them, He regenerated them, making them able to do His work... believe."

Others don't trust Him.. they might reject the love of the truth by which they too could be saved.. it's not that they couldn't be saved.. they rejected the very means of salvation which was available to them.
quote]
>>>???Whaddaya mean "couldn't"? I thought He does save, did save, not offered a chance at salvation, if you are lucky enough to hear it, lucky enough to choose it and manage to hang on to it for the rest of your life.

 

[Citizinsane]

if god wanted us to fly, he would have given us tickets.

 

[Rick Otto]

Mercy is the ticket.

 

[Markea]

>>>>>"Man, Markea! I thought the reason the they trust in His Son is because in His mercy on them, He regenerated them, making them able to do His work... believe."

I don't see God making some able to believe while others are not afforded that same thing.. if that were to be the case.. then it's simply a matter of mechanics.. able, not able.. etc..

The gospel itself IS the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes.. not to every one that is enabled to believe. His words are SPIRIT and LIFE, and it's the goodness within that gospel which is able to lead us to repentance.. and then to faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ.

He is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.. but some like darkness rather than the light..because of their own deeds.

Case in point.. I've shared the gospel many times with this particular person, and it's not a matter of his not being able to comprehend it, or receive it.. he simply doesn't want his life to change from where it is now.. he likes it just the way it is..

This may not be the case for countless others.. although it speaks volumes to me.. it's not that he is unable.. he is unwilling to come to Christ because he knows what a drastic change it will bring.

>>>???Whaddaya mean "couldn't"? I thought He does save, did save, not offered a chance at salvation, if you are lucky enough to hear it, lucky enough to choose it and manage to hang on to it for the rest of your life.

Here it sounds as though you believe that God is forcing His own will upon others so that they become saved.. I can't imagine why people attribute this sort of thing to God.

God doesn't demand surrender.. that's Islam.. God wins the hearts and minds of His people through the immense love and grace of His Son.. He has made peace through the blood of His cross..

God offers the FREE GIFT of salvation, and that free gift extends UNTO ALL although it's only UPON ALL those who receive Him, that believe Him.. that trust in Him.. that receive the good seed of the word of God into their hearts..

 

[Markea]

Mercy is the ticket.

The scriptures teach that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation.. not mercy.. although His mercy is an essential ingredient in extending the free gift of salvation unto all..

[bible]Romans 5:18[/bible]

 

[Nachtjager]

John 7:17 If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

And consider the crux of the position when looked at in Young's Literal Translation of the Greek:

Romans 8:29 because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;

I still believe Calvinists have it completely wrong on predestination. I've found four different Greek words just in the last month in the place of "predestined" in Romans. Each alternately meaning "appoint", "mark", "destine" or "determine." At the end of the day, (or time) I think it will come down to a simple misunderstanding of what Paul was trying to say.

In regards to Jesus's saying "I chose you, you didn't choose me," remember, he was speaking to his twelve disciples in that text, not the world. And I think Lion of God nailed with the parable of the wedding feast - all are invited, it is up to those who choose to attend.

To accept the Calvinist view that all deserve hell and God spares some while He doesn't spare others, flies in the face of the the rest of the NT, please see my earlier post (POST 27) of what the Calvinist view does to many NT passages. I have a great deal of trouble accepting that several scriptures out of the thousands in the NT contradict what most everything else clearly states.

Simply stated, I think the Calvinist view could be illustrated by a lifeguard on a beach watching over a bunch of swimmers. The tide goes out and none are capable of reaching the beach again on their own, thus, they are all going to drown. The lifeguard, who has a Jet Ski let's say, goes out into the water and saves some of them but lets the other ones drown. He has the power to save them all, but he doesn't, because, in his mind, they all knew the tide was going out, so thus, they all deserved to drown. That would be unthinkable to us, wouldn't it? But we are to believe that our almighty God acts this way?

Then there's the OT standby
Joshua 24:15 "But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

But, I guess the Calvinists will say God knew he was gonna' say that...

 

[WarriorAngel]

Is there such a thing as being pre-destined for heaven by God or do you belief that anyone become saved?

Justin Martyr argued that fate is wrong to believe. Aprox 130 AD.


For so we say that there will be the conflagration, but not as the Stoics, according to their doctrine of all things being changed into one another, which seems most degrading. But neither do we affirm that it is by fate that men do what they do, or suffer what they suffer, but that each man by free choice acts rightly or sins; and that it is by the influence of the wicked demons that earnest men, such as Socrates and the like, suffer persecution and are in bonds, while Sardanapalus, Epicurus, and the like, seem to be blessed in abundance and glory. The Stoics, not observing this, maintained that all things take place according to the necessity of fate. But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed. And this is the nature of all that is made, to be capable of vice and virtue. For neither would any of them be praiseworthy unless there were power to turn to both [virtue and vice]. And this also is shown by those men everywhere who have made laws and philosophized according to right reason, by their prescribing to do some things and refrain from others. Even the Stoic philosophers, in their doctrine of morals, steadily honour the same things, so that it is evident that they are not very felicitous in what they say about principles and incorporeal things. For if they say that human actions come to pass by fate, they will maintain either that God is nothing else than the things which are ever turning, and altering, and dissolving into the same things, and will appear to have had a comprehension only of things that are destructible, and to have looked on God Himself as emerging both in part and in whole in every wickedness; or that neither vice nor virtue is anything; which is contrary to every sound idea, reason, and sense.

 

[Matthan]

If God predetermines some people to heaven, then He necessarily also predetermines all others to hell. If that is the case, then will He have to judge Himself at the final judgement? After all, if He could save some, why not all? And if not all, then why not all?

But, if He lets us exercise our own ability to freely choose options in our lives, and we freely make the wrong choices (spiritually speaking), then we will be judged by Him for our making those choices. He did not cause us to make them, so His perfect holiness is preserved as He sits in judgement of His created beings.

Matthan

 

[Easystreet]

If God predetermines some people to heaven, then He necessarily also predetermines all others to hell. If that is the case, then will He have to judge Himself at the final judgement? After all, if He could save some, why not all? And if not all, then why not all?

But, if He lets us exercise our own ability to freely choose options in our lives, and we freely make the wrong choices (spiritually speaking), then we will be judged by Him for our making those choices. He did not cause us to make them, so His perfect holiness is preserved as He sits in judgement of His created beings.

Matthan

Preach it brother. Right on.

 

[JonF]

If God predetermines some people to heaven, then He necessarily also predetermines all others to hell. If that is the case, then will He have to judge Himself at the final judgement? After all, if He could save some, why not all? And if not all, then why not all?

But, if He lets us exercise our own ability to freely choose options in our lives, and we freely make the wrong choices (spiritually speaking), then we will be judged by Him for our making those choices. He did not cause us to make them, so His perfect holiness is preserved as He sits in judgement of His created beings.

Matthan

This assumes we are owed salvation, for God’s view on what He has the right to do with His grace Matthew 20:1-16 and focus on verse 15.

 

[DeaconDean]

If God predetermines some people to heaven, then He necessarily also predetermines all others to hell. If that is the case, then will He have to judge Himself at the final judgement? After all, if He could save some, why not all? And if not all, then why not all?

But, if He lets us exercise our own ability to freely choose options in our lives, and we freely make the wrong choices (spiritually speaking), then we will be judged by Him for our making those choices. He did not cause us to make them, so His perfect holiness is preserved as He sits in judgement of His created beings.

Matthan

Preach it brother. Right on.

Thats it brothers, keep the flags flying.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[StephanStrategy]

If God predetermines some people to heaven, then He necessarily also predetermines all others to hell. If that is the case, then will He have to judge Himself at the final judgement? After all, if He could save some, why not all? And if not all, then why not all?

But, if He lets us exercise our own ability to freely choose options in our lives, and we freely make the wrong choices (spiritually speaking), then we will be judged by Him for our making those choices. He did not cause us to make them, so His perfect holiness is preserved as He sits in judgement of His created beings.

Matthan

I think this is the idea that most people get wrapped around, that God must save people. He must? Why? He does not have to save anyone.

Are we inheritly worthy of salvation? No.

Is He completely just and holy? Yes. Does he hate sin? Absolutley. Ps. 5:4-6: For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You. The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity. You destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deciet.

Clearly God hates sin. Yet, while we were His enemies, Christ died for us. We do not deserve salvation but He has chosen to save some.

God plans whatever comes to pass. He does not make us think or act, in those areas we are free. But since He is totally Sovereign, He is able to use the actions and free choices of creatures, and still have everything happen the way He has planned it.

Predestination is involved with our nature. Are we capable, in and of ourselves, to chose God? No. We do not think right; our nature, in our former selves, is set against Him. But God revealed Himself to us in such a way that made us capable of coming to Him freely but He moved first. We then responded.

In my mind, it makes perfect sense that we are predestined and free.

Mike

 

[StephanStrategy]

Deleted. I keep double posting. How does that happen?

 

[DeaconDean]

I think this is the idea that most people get wrapped around, that God must save people. He must? Why? He does not have to save anyone.

Are we inheritly worthy of salvation? No.

Is He completely just and holy? Yes. Does he hate sin? Absolutley. Ps. 5:4-6: For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You. The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity. You destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deciet.

Clearly God hates sin. Yet, while we were His enemies, Christ died for us. We do not deserve salvation but He has chosen to save some.

God plans whatever comes to pass. He does not make us think or act, in those areas we are free. But since He is totally Sovereign, He is able to use the actions and free choices of creatures, and still have everything happen the way He has planned it.

Predestination is involved with our nature. Are we capable, in and of ourselves, to chose God? No. We do not think right; our nature, in our former selves, is set against Him. But God revealed Himself to us in such a way that made us capable of coming to Him freely but He moved first. We then responded.

In my mind, it makes perfect sense that we are predestined and free.

Mike

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." -Rom. 9:14 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Deleted, double post

 

[ticker]

Are we capable, in and of ourselves, to chose God? No. We do not think right; our nature, in our former selves, is set against Him. But God revealed Himself to us in such a way that made us capable of coming to Him freely but He moved first. We then responded.

In my mind, it makes perfect sense that we are predestined and free.

Mike

Yeah...that sounds about right.

I've always been curious about how exactly we get saved. It's more than just us coming to God and making that all-important decision with our heart isn't it?...It's more like God making that first move to put the desire in our heart for us to make that decision...hence being actually saved, right? Otherwise, we've kind of done the saving for ourselves.

Also, while being that former (non-God loving) person that I was...where would I even begin to want to give my life to Christ? I can only think God predistined me to come to Him.

God bless

 

[StephanStrategy]

Yeah...that sounds about right.

I've always been curious about how exactly we get saved. It's more than just us coming to God and making that decision with our heart isn't it...more like God making that first move to put the desire in our heart for us to make that decision...hence getting actually saved, right? Otherwise, we've kind of done the saving ourselves.

So I guess we've been predestined to be saved through Grace, haven't we?

Cool!

The Reformed view would call putting "the desire in our heart" Regeneration. It is the first "step" in the ordo saludis (order of salvation). It is a way to look at how an individual becomes a member of the family of God.

In Regeneration, a person's "heart" is fixed so that they are able to respond to the free offer of the Gospel. When our heart is repaired, we see that God is not our enemy and that He Himself made atonement for our sin. Then we come to Him.

Again, this is the Reformed view of things (and is my background). There are those who would argue that grace is resistable but I do not believe that is the case.

Mike