Pre-destination???

[vekarppe]

It doesn't mean that WE were chosen from the foundation of the world..(Ephesians itself refutes that idea).. it means that Christ was chosen from the foundation of the world (as He is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world)

Lets see what Ephesians 1 say:

• There is selection (vv. 4, 5, 11).
• It is based on the purpose and the counsel of God own will (vv. 5, 9, 11).
• It is done before the foundation of the world (v. 4)
• Sphere of election is Christ ("In Him", v. 4)
• It apply only to those who hear the gospel and believe in Christ ("Us", vv. 4, 5, 11)

I do not understand how you can insist that we were not chosen from the foundation of the world ... this is exactly what Eph 1:4 says. Paul does not say here that Christ was chosen but we were in Him.

 

[Markea]

I do not understand how you can insist that we were not chosen from the foundation of the world ... this is exactly what Eph 1:4 says. Paul does not say here that Christ was chosen but we were in Him.

This is why we do not build doctrine from one portion of scripture alone..

First.. we already noted that Ephesians 2 teaches that we were DEAD, lost in trespasses and in sins.. and that in times past we walked as children of disobedience, according to the course of this world.. and were by nature children of wrath, even as others..

Ephesians 1:13 tells us when that all changed.. it was AFTER we trusted in Christ, AFTER hearing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation.. and how that AFTER we believed, we were THEN sealed with the Holy Spirit of God..

So, are you gonna tell me that YOU were chosen before the foundation of the world.. or is it AFTER you trusted in Christ..?

Furthermore.. we know who was chosen from the foundation of the world.. the Lord Jesus Christ was.. as scripture teaches that He is the Lamb which was slain from before the foundation of the world...

So.. add it up.. it was after we trusted in Christ, after we heard the truth of the gospel, and after we believed, that God sealed us with His Spirit.. before this.. we were by nature vessels of wrath, fit for destruction, even as others..

This is why the emphasis needs to be placed on the IN HIM portion of Ephesians 1:4.. because if we place it on the US part, then we'll start saying that we were chosen from before the foundation of the world.. but the scripture doesn't say that.. it says that we were chosen IN HIM from before the foundation of the world..

For example.. if a person hears the gospel today, and then trusts in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins.. God knowing that persons heart.. seals that person with the Holy Spirit of promise.. if they rejected the gospel, then God would not seal them with the Holy Spirit, and they would not be saved..

So.. the PROVISION is there, and that provision was established from before the foundation of the world.. that whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD (the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world) shall be saved..

That's why Paul writes that God chose us IN HIM from before the foundation of the world.. because He did.. although He affords that same provision to all of Adam's race, not to randomly chosen individuals.. because that places the emphasis on us, rather than on God..

 

[vekarppe]

we already noted that Ephesians 2 teaches that we were DEAD, lost in trespasses and in sins.. and that in times past we walked as children of disobedience, according to the course of this world.. and were by nature children of wrath, even as others..

Yes, but what is problem here? How does this contradict Divine election?

Ephesians 1:13 tells us when that all changed.. it was AFTER we trusted in Christ, AFTER hearing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation.. and how that AFTER we believed, we were THEN sealed with the Holy Spirit of God..

So, are you gonna tell me that YOU were chosen before the foundation of the world.. or is it AFTER you trusted in Christ..?

Election is necessary because we are totally depraved sinners. In other words, we would not choose God unless he first chose us.

Election does not obliterate human responsibility. Each person is held responsible before Almighty God as to what they will do with his Son. "There are unsaved people alive today, who, though elect, are now lost and will not be saved until they believe." (C. C. Ryrie) Cf. Ephesians 2:3.

D. B. Wallace

So I am saying that we (the believers) are chosen before the foundation of the world but we are not saved until we believe.

That's why Paul writes that God chose us IN HIM from before the foundation of the world.. because He did.. although He affords that same provision to all of Adam's race, not to randomly chosen individuals.. because that places the emphasis on us, rather than on God..

According to Romans 8:29 God predestined those whom he foreknew. Next verse tells us that "those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." So there is number of people who are elected by God and they will also be saved ("glorified").

 

[Markea]

Yes, but what is problem here? How does this contradict Divine election?

It doesn't, unless you're going to tell me that election means that only certain individuals can be saved apart from their receiving or rejecting Christ.

Election is necessary because we are totally depraved sinners. In other words, we would not choose God unless he first chose us.

So according to your thinking here.. the gospel is pointless unless God allows us to believe it.. is that correct..?

Election does not obliterate human responsibility. Each person is held responsible before Almighty God as to what they will do with his Son. "There are unsaved people alive today, who, though elect, are now lost and will not be saved until they believe." (C. C. Ryrie) Cf. Ephesians 2:3.

I'd agree if you'd extend that grace to every person and then have it based upon their receiving or rejecting Christ as their Saviour.

So I am saying that we (the believers) are chosen before the foundation of the world but we are not saved until we believe.

There's no scriptural basis for that.. there is a scriptural basis for Christ being chosen from before the foundation of the world.. but not us.. we're chosen in Him.. because of Him, because we trusted in Him.. not for some arbitrary reason.. but because we received Him after hearing the gospel.

According to Romans 8:29 God predestined those whom he foreknew. Next verse tells us that "those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." So there is number of people who are elected by God and they will also be saved ("glorified").

And the LORD is calling all men everywhere to repent.. do you believe that..? And this is also written in the present tense.. although we're not glorified yet..

Again... this is a dead horse.. we've beat it long enough.. I hope that you can see the other side of the coin..

 

[vekarppe]

It doesn't, unless you're going to tell me that election means that only certain individuals can be saved apart from their receiving or rejecting Christ.

Ok, so no problems there.

So according to your thinking here.. the gospel is pointless unless God allows us to believe it.. is that correct..?

Word "allow" is incorrect because it gives a picture that God prevents men from being pardoned. And that is not true. Rather God make us able to believe by changing our heart.

I'd agree if you'd extend that grace to every person and then have it based upon their receiving or rejecting Christ as their Saviour.

Yes.

There's no scriptural basis for that.. there is a scriptural basis for Christ being chosen from before the foundation of the world.. but not us.. we're chosen in Him.. because of Him, because we trusted in Him .. not for some arbitrary reason.. but because we received Him after hearing the gospel.

I see this is hard case to you. But first, Scripture never speaks of our faith as the reason God chose us.

Think about Jacob and Esau: "Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad -- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call -- she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'" (Romans 9:11-13)

Eph 1:5 He predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will.

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

2 Tim. 1:9 God saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began.

Second, several passages in the New Testament seem to affirm quite clearly that God ordained beforehand those who would be saved. There is some:

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Eph 1:4-5 Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will.

1 Thess. 1:4–5 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.

Thess. 2:13 But we must always thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God has chosen you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

And the LORD is calling all men everywhere to repent.. do you believe that..?

Yes.

 

[BBAS 64]

Well, then thanks for the reading lesson Bill. I mentioned that the only difference in our initial reading was that you placed the emboldened EMPHASIS on US, and I placed it on HIM..

That's it. Although again, thanks for explaining how to read.



So, are you saying that YOU were IN HIM while you were DEAD and lost in trespasses and in sins.. ?

I'm not sure what your point is here.. although perhaps you can enlighten us as to how you READ this..

[bible]Ephesians 1:13-14[/bible]

Clearly it was AFTER we trusted in Christ, AFTER we heard the gospel of truth, that it was THEN that God sealed us with the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2 makes it clear that in times past (prior to that) we walked according to the course of this world, and were by nature children of wrath, even as others..

So if you're suggesting that you were IN CHRIST then, then that's a new one for me.. although it's not surprising.. it often amazes me what folks write on these boards from time to time.. :o

Good Day, Markea

It may be a good idea to exergete the whole chapter, verse 13, is dependant in a contexual manner to the things written before it like verse 4. Are you up to the task??

Christ was cruicfied before the foundations, does that mean he was so before he went to the cross?

Was there any thing that was out side God's controll that could have stopped it from happing in the fullness of time?

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Agreed, but he does not nor is he obligated to quicked every body.

You here is a pronoun, to which noun/pronoun does it refer??

There I have gone and done it again....

In Him,

Bill

 

[Rick Otto]

So I'll ask you the same question..

Are you going to suggest that YOU were IN CHRIST while you were DEAD and lost in trespasses and in sins.. or was it after you trusted in Christ, after hearing the gospel and then believing.. ?

We were "IN CHRST" in God's Determinate Council, in His holy intention, not in His spleen or His liver. Sealing comes after hearing(understanding) & believing (a gift, that not of ourelves).

 

[Markea]

Word "allow" is incorrect because it gives a picture that God prevents men from being pardoned. And that is not true. Rather God make us able to believe by changing our heart.

So in essence.. you're saying that God did not win your heart, He did not win your trust, He did not convince you in your mind that you need a Saviour.. You're saying that He enabled that all happen..for YOU, but not for all..

What about those that do not believe..? He just didn't enable them to believe Him.. ? Is that what you believe..? Did He enable you to believe that as well, or is that something that you came to believe on your own..?

I see this is hard case to you. But first, Scripture never speaks of our faith as the reason God chose us.

Really..? the scriptures talk about God reasoning with humanity.. about His goodness leading people to repentance.. convincing people of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment..

But you think that He simply chooses people apart from all of that.. for no reason at all..?

Think about Jacob and Esau: "Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad -- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call -- she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'" (Romans 9:11-13)

This is where many calvinists take a dive off the deep end imo.. because they torture the doctrine of God's elective purpose (the older serving the younger), and confound it with salvation. As far as a calvinist is concerned.. election and salvation mean the same thing.

Eph 1:5 He predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will.

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

2 Tim. 1:9 God saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began.

That's right.. the only problem is that calvinists read into these texts that this is afforded to specific individuals.. and not to all of Adam's fallen race.

Second, several passages in the New Testament seem to affirm quite clearly that God ordained beforehand those who would be saved. There is some:

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Eph 1:4-5 Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will.

1 Thess. 1:4–5 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.

Thess. 2:13 But we must always thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God has chosen you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

And again.. this is all perfectly true.. although why would anybody read into it that it's for some of Adam, and not for all.. ?

We're also told plainly in the scriptures that the Lord Jesus Christ is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world, but that some loved darkness because their deeds were evil.. that some will reject the love of the truth that they (also) might be saved..

It's never about them not being ABLE to be saved.. it's about their rejecting the very means of their salvation.

 

[Markea]

Agreed, but he does not nor is he obligated to quicked every body.

Who told you this..?

Isn't God love..? Isn't He the one who would leave the ninety and nine and go to look for that one who is lost..?

How can you suggest that the Lord is not responsible for the least of His creation.. He created ALL things and by Him they consist.. you folks simply claim that He passes over portions of His own creation as if He could care less.. although the scriptures tell us that He looks for the blood.. in the OT it was to be applied to the door posts.. and in the NT He sees the blood of His Son applied to the heart and mind of His creatures..

There I have gone and done it again....

In Him,

Bill

Keep slappin yourself Bill.. perhaps you'll see the Lord Jesus Christ in a different light than that of Lord Calvin..

 

[Markea]

We were "IN CHRST" in God's Determinate Council, in His holy intention, not in His spleen or His liver. Sealing comes after hearing(understanding) & believing (a gift, that not of ourelves).

AND you were DEAD and lost in trespasses and in sins.. you were NOT in Christ before He sealed you with His Spirit.. and the reason why He sealed you with His Spirit is because you trusted in Him..

Did God win your heart..? Did He win your trust..? Or was that all just a mechanical process which you were totally oblivious to..?

 

[vekarppe]

Really..? the scriptures talk about God reasoning with humanity.. about His goodness leading people to repentance.. convincing people of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment..

But you think that He simply chooses people apart from all of that.. for no reason at all..?

Yes, but not wihtout reason. Reason is God mercy and glory. Another option is to believe that salvation is completely dependent on men decision; God [SIZE=-1]doesn't originate men[/SIZE] salvation. And that is at least as hard to believe.

 

[Markea]

Yes, but not wihtout reason. Reason is God mercy and glory.

So your view of the Lord is that He is only merciful to those whom He enables to believe.. and that He is glorified in that.

Another option is to believe that salvation is completely dependent on men decision; God [SIZE=-1]doesn't originate men[/SIZE] salvation. And that is at least as hard to believe.

Salvation is not completely dependent upon a person trusting in Christ.. because they could not have trusted in Christ in the first place if it wasn't for the gospel of God concerning His Son.. nor if it was not for the goodness of God which leads us to repentance.. nor if it was not for the power of the Holy Spirit of God which convinces of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment.

Your position implies that all of this is reduced to God either enabling a person to believe it or not believe it..

The scriptures tell us that God knows the heart.. that He looks upon the heart.. man often looks to outward appearances but God weighs the motive of the heart.. and when people hear the gospel, it penetrates the heart.. it pricks their heart.. and it's effectual in convincing a person that He is true, that He suffered and died for their sin.. and that He is for them, not against them..

God has no pleasure in the death of those that die in their sin, because He afforded them every possible means of being completely forgiven of it all..

 

[Rick Otto]

AND you were DEAD and lost in trespasses and in sins.. you were NOT in Christ before He sealed you with His Spirit..

Yes I was, & you admitted it with "AND" & then denied it... sounds like you're conflicted about it.

and the reason why He sealed you with His Spirit is because you trusted in Him..

And I trusted Him because He regenerated me along with eveyone else He placed in Christ before the foundation of the world. It wasn't a PHYSICAL placement Markea, it was a DESIGN PLACEMENT. It was a PREDESTINATING act.

Did God win your heart..? Did He win your trust..? Or was that all just a mechanical process which you were totally oblivious to?

You ask this because you are under the delusion that predestination obliterates personal responsibility. It does not:
Ac 2:23 - Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
God planned the crucifixion, but that didn't make Him evil, or its perpetrators any less guilty.

 

[Markea]

Yes I was, & you admitted it with "AND" & then denied it... sounds like you're conflicted about it.

Not sure what you're referring to here.. what did I deny Rick..? I understand that I was NOT IN CHRIST from before the foundation of the world.. because it was AFTER I trusted in Christ, AFTER I heard the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, and AFTER I believed, that God sealed me with His Spirit... it was THEN that I was IN CHRIST.

And I trusted Him because He regenerated me along with eveyone else He placed in Christ before the foundation of the world. It wasn't a PHYSICAL placement Markea, it was a DESIGN PLACEMENT. It was a PREDESTINATING act.

The only difference is that you think that He only affords salvation to some, but not others.. the other portion of His creation is simply without hope.. because your God didn't afford them the same grace..

The scriptures contradict this thought.. because He is the Saviour of all men, specially those that believe, and His grace extends UNTO ALL, although it is UPON all those that believe..

Of course you'll continue to believe that you're just a puppet without any creative capacity to think, believe, and trust on your own.. as I mentioned before.. there's nothing sovereign about that.. it's a simple computer program which many spiritually dead folks can manipulate all day long..

You ask this because you are under the delusion that predestination obliterates personal responsibility. It does not:
Ac 2:23 - Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
God planned the crucifixion, but that didn't make Him evil, or its perpetrators any less guilty.

I agree.. I know that the Lord Jesus Christ was the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world.. although His life, death, burial, and resurrection affords all things to be reconciled unto Himself.. all things.. whether they be things in heaven or things on earth..

Calvinists simply cannot accept that.. they must limit His reconciling ALL THINGS unto Himself only to those whom God has enabled to believe and trust..

 

[cygnusx1]

That said, Luther did come down firmly on the side of predestination.

Luther’s strong position on predestination stands in stark contrast to modern apathy over the issue. Most Christian laypeople don’t even find the issue of predestination important enough to discuss at the dinner table, much less start a Reformation over! But it is easy to see why Luther held this doctrine as the most important of all[5]. Salvation by grace alone means that we are converted by grace alone, not by grace plus freewill.
Catholics opposed Luther by saying that they, too, taught the necessity of grace to save us. Strictly speaking, this is true, but the role of grace is completely different under the two systems. “What the [Roman Catholics] described as grace, Luther described as legalism.”[6] Under the Catholic view of salvation, God gives us grace and expects us to cooperate with this grace by our own freewill. Under the Reformed view, the grace of God is completely effective in saving those people it is given to. This later understanding of grace glorifies God because it gives him all of the credit for salvation. It humbles man because it admits that he is spiritually helpless to save himself by an act of willing or working. At bottom, we are not Christians because we were wise enough to make the right decision or worked hard enough to get it. We are Christians because God decided to save us. D. A. Carson presents the following analogy:

Picture a judge rightly condemning ten criminals, and offering each of them pardon. Five of them accept the pardon, the other five reject it (the relative numbers are not important). But in this model, even though those who accept the pardon do not earn it, and certainly enjoy their new freedom because of the judge’s “grace,” nevertheless they are distinguishable from those who reject the offer solely on the basis of their own decision to accept the pardon. The only thing that separates them from those who are carted off to prison is the wisdom of their own choice. That becomes a legitimate boast. By contrast, in the Calvinistic scheme, the sole determining factor is God’s elective grace.[7]

In reality, no one can boast in his choice to become a Christian because it is God who causes us to choose Christ. Paul wrote, “But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise . . . so that no one may boast before him” (1 Cor. 1:27, 29). Paul was opposed to any doctrine that gave man some of the credit for his salvation. This is why he adamantly opposed salvation by works. He wrote, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast” (Eph. 2:8-9). Salvation is not based on works so that no one can boast in his own endeavors to make himself a Christian. It is also true that the reason God predestines some men to be saved and not others is so that Christians will not think they were saved by their own works. Again Paul says,

Not only that, but Rebekah's children [Jacob and Esau] had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad – in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls--she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated” (Rom. 9:10-13).

Paul’s argument is that the reason Jacob’s salvation was not based on works is because it was based on God’s sovereign choice. It is crucial to see this point. Later in Romans Paul says the same thing: “at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace” (Rom. 11:5-6). The grace of salvation is the grace of election; no work we do can initiate our conversion to Christ because God’s choice of us based on his grace, not our works. If salvation is based on our freewill, then the words of Paul are meaningless when he says, “So then [salvation] does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy” (Rom. 9:16, nasb). I do not think that Paul could have been clearer in his assertion that holding onto a doctrine of freewill is dangerously close to holding onto a doctrine of salvation by human effort.
The connection between freewill and works-based salvation was not imagined by Luther. It is made explicit in some discussions of freewill even today. James Sennet, in an article already referred to in this essay, speculates as to why God would have given man freewill in the first place: “One might . . . suggest that [the value of] freedom . . . is the potential for or actual possession of a certain God-like quality – the quality of self-determined righteousness [!!!].”[8] What this quotation shows is that exalting freewill can directly lead to the idea that men make themselves righteous by their own will-power and works. The New Testament screams against this conclusion on nearly every page! Contrast Sennet’s view with Saint Paul’s: “not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law” (Phil. 3:9); “he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy” (Tit. 3:5); “[God] has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time” (2 Tim. 1:9). I am struck as to why anyone would think that the value of freewill is in its potential for men to make themselves righteous by their own choosing. I hope my readers can see that taking freewill to its logical extreme opens the door for believing we are saved by human merit. The view that we are saved by a “self-determined righteousness” is exactly the error Paul spent so much energy and frustration trying to refute.

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