Pre-destination???

[Markea]

How is it Calvinists confuse election with what they're elected to - salvation?

Because they often use Romans 9 in the context of salvation, while the context is election.. ie, that God's purpose according to ELECTION might stand.

Your following comments will reveal this I think..

Does Romans 10 tell who it is that actualy call upon the name of the Lord & are saved? Is it those who were placed in Christ before the foundation of the world - before any were born like Esaua & Jacob, so that election to salvation isn't based on anything they do?

The LORD Jesus Christ was the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world.. but WE were once children of disobedience, even as others.. and were vessels of wrath fit for destruction.. just as Ephesians 2 says.. so it's obvious that WE were not sealed from the foundation of the world.. we were DEAD and lost in trespasses and in sins, just like everyone else..

It was AFTER we trusted in Christ.. AFTER we heard the truth of the gospel, that we were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.. (Eph 1:13-14)

God's elective purposes are that all who place their trust in His Son will be adopted as children of God through Jesus Christ.

Otherwise.. it's all simply a game of puppets.. this one yes, this one no.. I can't even begin to imagine where people come up with such a ridiculous bottom line as that.. where's the glory in that.. even I can write a program that selects one over the other.. that's simple..

But the scriptures teach that He is that TRUE LIGHT which lighteth every man that comes into the world.. but that some reject the light, they love darkness, and will not come to the light.. they reject the love of the truth that they (too) might be saved.

Because Esau & Jacob hadn't done anything before God decided which one to love & which one to hate.

And this IS God's elective purpose.. that the ELDER (old man) shall serve the younger (new man in Christ)..

Calvinists don't teach that not all come under Adam's condemnation. It sounds almost as if you think they do.

It's simply good to remember what comes before Romans 9.. that we are all condemned in Adam.. we are ALL vessels of wrath fit to destruction before trusting in Christ, through the gospel of God concerning His Son, which is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes.

Yes, the gift of faith comes by hearing.
Markea said:
"The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes.. not to everyone that is allowed to believe. "
Isn't everyone who believes, allowed to?
I thought grace allowed faith.
This doesn't sound right:
"This is salvation, and from the beginning God elected that all who place their trust in Christ, would be saved."
>It sounds like election is only about what would happen after anybody believed, but Romans clearly indicates election is about before anybody doing anything.

Ro 9:11 - (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

IT is before anybody did or does anything.. we can't change the fact that God will adopt any person into His family because they trust in His Son.. this is election.. it's not about individuals.. it's about the elder serving the younger.

 

[mooduck1]

To understand this question you have to do the impossible - You have to be able to see the world from God's Point of view. You have to rememeber that God exists out side of time and space. As a result, from GOD's point of view you have Been created, are being created, and will be created all at once because, with God there is No time. God can't creat you without knowing your 'end'...but to HIM there is no 'end', no 'beginning' and no 'present'. "predestined' describes something thaty happens in the future...since to GOD there is not 'future' this point is just silly. God knows everything about you, and so you could say he has a plan for you and since he knows everything, and is soveriegn....Well... you can't call it 'predestination' but you could almost say he has a 'plan' for you, but that implies a timetable too...Perhapose the BEST you could say IS that God has a design that is specifically you.

Remeber though that from OUR POINT OF VIEW thier are time restrictions and we don't know the future...As a matter of practice, it's proibably healtier for us to LIVE as if our futures is not set, because from our point of view it probably isn't! does this make sense??

 

[Rick Otto]

I mean I know the difference between election & salvation, salvation being what it is one is elected to. Correct?
So if Paul was talking about election, what people get elected to is contextualy definitive.
Esau & Jacob, the individuals, had their destinies determined previous to their births, so that God's purposes are not, & are not seen to be, dependant upon human will or accomplishment - election "stands" independantly in that sense.
Rom9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Election to salvation is what Paul is talking about, & it happened before Creation.
True, the elder shall serve the younger in the spiritual sense, but the larger relevant fact in the physical sense, is that neither individual deserved election to salvation.
Election stands according to God's mercy, not according to human will or works.

 

[Markea]

I mean I know the difference between election & salvation, salvation being what it is one is elected to. Correct?
So if Paul was talking about election, what people get elected to is contextualy definitive.
Esau & Jacob, the individuals, had their destinies determined previous to their births, so that God's purposes are not, & are not seen to be, dependant upon human will or accomplishment - election "stands" independantly in that sense.
Rom9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Election to salvation is what Paul is talking about, & it happened before Creation.
True, the elder shall serve the younger in the spiritual sense, but the larger relevant fact in the physical sense, is that neither individual deserved election to salvation.
Election stands according to God's mercy, not according to human will or works.

Certain individuals are not elected to salvation.. because election affords ALL in Adam to be saved.. ie, all in Adam condemned, and yet ALL justified freely by faith in Christ..

That's God's elective purpose.. ie, God elected that ALL in Adam are condemned.. and God elected that ALL of Adam's race may be justified freely by trusting in Christ.

[bible]Romans 5:18[/bible]

Paul writes it like this in the 3rd chapter..

[bible]Romans 3:21-22[/bible]

Notice that it's unto all, although it is only upon all that believe..

IF it were some robotic process, where God allowed certain individuals to believe, and not others.. then there would be no need at all to make that distinction.. ie, unto all, and upon all.. He could simply say, upon all.. but the scripture doesn't say that..

 

[Rick Otto]

Certain individuals are not elected to salvation.. because election affords ALL in Adam to be saved.. ie, all in Adam condemned, and yet ALL justified freely by faith in Christ..

That's God's elective purpose.. ie, God elected that ALL in Adam are condemned.. and God elected that ALL of Adam's race may be justified freely by trusting in Christ.

[bible]Romans 5:18[/bible]

Paul writes it like this in the 3rd chapter..

[bible]Romans 3:21-22[/bible]

Notice that it's unto all, although it is only upon all that believe..

IF it were some robotic process, where God allowed certain individuals to believe, and not others.. then there would be no need at all to make that distinction.. ie, unto all, and upon all.. He could simply say, upon all.. but the scripture doesn't say that..

How does election afford all in Adam to be saved?
It sounds to me like you're saying He paid for everyman's sins, but that doesn't realy save us, we realy close the deal when we decide to, not Jesus. Do you see how that puts people in hell whose sins have been paid for?
Is that fair?

Election affords all, but not every... Romans 3:21's "all" is contextualized in Romans 3:29. "All men" is frequently used in opposition to "Jews only", not in reference to each & every soul that ever did or ever will live.
Salvation is hinged on belief, & belief is a gift of God not given to every individual.

Php 1:29 - For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

The reason you refer to "robotic process" is because you think predestination absolves personal responsibility. It does not.
The two issues are contrasted & resolved in one verse:

Ac 2:23 - Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Predestination & personal responsibilty do not cancel each other out. Predestination does not reduce us to robots.

 

[Markea]

How does election afford all in Adam to be saved?
It sounds to me like you're saying He paid for everyman's sins, but that doesn't realy save us, we realy close the deal when we decide to, not Jesus. Do you see how that puts people in hell whose sins have been paid for?

Election does afford all in Adam to be justified freely.. just as Romans 5 explains..

[bible]Romans 5:18[/bible]

That's what the word of God says.. because of one man (Adam) condemnation came upon all.. and because of the righteousness of one man (Christ, the last Adam), justification of life came upon all men..

Now, I'd be willing to bet that you agree that all in Adam are condemned, right..? So why not all in Christ justified..? That's the fulness of the context here isn't it.. ? Or does all only mean all for Adam, but it's diminished with respect to Christ..?

And.. we do NOT close the deal.. God does.. just as Ephesians 1:13 explains..

Is that fair?

Is it fair that men die in their sins..? Absolutely, especially when God afforded them the free gift of salvation which was rejected..

What's unfair is that they never had the choice at all.. that's calvinistic nonsense as far as I'm concerned.. so I don't buy what that man's sellin.

Election affords all, but not every... Romans 3:21's "all" is contextualized in Romans 3:29. "All men" is frequently used in opposition to "Jews only", not in reference to each & every soul that ever did or ever will live.

Right, it's the all means some trick.. lol.. for Adam it means all, but not for Christ, the last Adam.

Salvation is hinged on belief, & belief is a gift of God not given to every individual.

So the gospel is the power of God to every one that is given the gift to believe it. OK.. is that what you're selling..?

Php 1:29 - For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

That's right.. your only problem here is that you're reading into the text that this is only afforded to specific people.. the only reason a person comes to believe in Christ is because of the gospel.. and it goes out to all.. the Sower sows all over..

The reason you refer to "robotic process" is because you think predestination absolves personal responsibility. It does not.
The two issues are contrasted & resolved in one verse:

Ac 2:23 - Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Predestination & personal responsibilty do not cancel each other out. Predestination does not reduce us to robots.

I mentioned what I believe the scriptures mean by pre-destination.. it's not about individuals.. it's about God determining before the foundation of the world (pre) that every one who trusts in His Son, would be adopted into the family of God as sons and daughters.. this is our destination..

It has nothing to do with individuals... but rather with God determining this from the foundation of the world.

 

[vekarppe]

I mentioned what I believe the scriptures mean by pre-destination.. it's not about individuals.. it's about God determining before the foundation of the world (pre) that every one who trusts in His Son, would be adopted into the family of God as sons and daughters.. this is our destination.

Problem in this view is that God[SIZE=-1] (alone) does not originate[/SIZE] salvation, but salvation is completely dependent on man's decision. Is this what the New Testament teach? I have a tendency to think it is not.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing;
it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[BBAS 64]

Election does afford all in Adam to be justified freely.. just as Romans 5 explains..

[bible]Romans 5:18[/bible]

That's what the word of God says.. because of one man (Adam) condemnation came upon all.. and because of the righteousness of one man (Christ, the last Adam), justification of life came upon all men..

Now, I'd be willing to bet that you agree that all in Adam are condemned, right..? So why not all in Christ justified..? That's the fulness of the context here isn't it.. ? Or does all only mean all for Adam, but it's diminished with respect to Christ..?

And.. we do NOT close the deal.. God does.. just as Ephesians 1:13 explains..



Is it fair that men die in their sins..? Absolutely, especially when God afforded them the free gift of salvation which was rejected..

What's unfair is that they never had the choice at all.. that's calvinistic nonsense as far as I'm concerned.. so I don't buy what that man's sellin.



Right, it's the all means some trick.. lol.. for Adam it means all, but not for Christ, the last Adam.



So the gospel is the power of God to every one that is given the gift to believe it. OK.. is that what you're selling..?



That's right.. your only problem here is that you're reading into the text that this is only afforded to specific people.. the only reason a person comes to believe in Christ is because of the gospel.. and it goes out to all.. the Sower sows all over..



I mentioned what I believe the scriptures mean by pre-destination.. it's not about individuals.. it's about God determining before the foundation of the world (pre) that every one who trusts in His Son, would be adopted into the family of God as sons and daughters.. this is our destination..

It has nothing to do with individuals... but rather with God determining this from the foundation of the world.

Good day, Markea

The Scripture is clear:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

The Pronouns here refer to people, he choses people, and predestintes then as well. Even though these pronouns are not sigular they refer to people there is no way in the text to refute this.


In Him,

Bill

 

[vekarppe]

Is it fair that men die in their sins..? Absolutely, especially when God afforded them the free gift of salvation which was rejected..

What's unfair is that they never had the choice at all.. that's calvinistic nonsense as far as I'm concerned.. so I don't buy what that man's sellin.

God indeed invite all sinners to salvation in or through the gospel. Doctrine of election does not means that we do not have a choice in wheter we accept Christ or not. "We must affirm that the doctrine of election is fully able to accommodate the idea that we have a voluntary choice and we make willing decisions in accepting or rejecting Christ." (Wayne Grudem)

 

[LoG]

The Pronouns here refer to people, he choses people, and predestintes then as well. Even though these pronouns are not sigular they refer to people there is no way in the text to refute this.

The problem is in the way you read it.
Using a secular example: The school faculty at the beginning of the year, chose that those of us who have achieved the honor roll are predestinated/predetermined to be given special status and recognition at the end.

The faculty didn't choose the specific students but the students that were on the honor roll. The same way God chooses those who have successfully run the race to the finish line and the reward He will bestow on them.

 

[BBAS 64]

The problem is in the way you read it.
Using a secular example: The school faculty at the beginning of the year, chose that those of us who have achieved the honor roll are predestinated/predetermined to be given special status and recognition at the end.

The faculty didn't choose the specific students but the students that were on the honor roll. The same way God chooses those who have successfully run the race to the finish line and the reward He will bestow on them.

Good Day, Lion Of God

The way I read it

Ok let us have a look see. Using your 2 examples there are some very telling contextual issues here to address.

#1.

The school faculty at the beginning of the year, chose that those of us who have achieved the honor roll are predestinated/predetermined to be given special status and recognition at the end.

With in the text here we can see there is a clearly stated prereq. that needs to be forfilled you have to get honors to be reconized at the end.

Now the second...

The same way God chooses those who have successfully run the race to the finish line and the reward He will bestow on them.

Wait a second the way I read it you say???

Where is the

chooses those who have successfully run the race to the finish line and the reward

In the context of the passage I quoted, you assumed it with out even reading it, so the fact that I read it and you did not is clear... so

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Where in the contexxt do get this idea, the words are not even in the whole chapter. When you add to a context you misrepresent that which the text says.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Rick Otto]

Markea;Election does afford all in Adam to be justified freely.. just as Romans 5 explains.. That's what the word of God says.. because of one man (Adam) condemnation came upon all.. and because of the righteousness of one man (Christ, the last Adam), justification of life came upon all men..

All men that were in Christ, not simply "all men".
The condemnation came to all men IN ADAM,
likewise justification came to all men IN CHRIST, not just all men, or all men would go to heaven.

"Now, I'd be willing to bet that you agree that all in Adam are condemned, right..? So why not all in Christ justified..?

All in Christ ARE justified, I agree, but do you agree that not all men are IN Christ?

That's the fulness of the context here isn't it.. ? Or does all only mean all for Adam, but it's diminished with respect to Christ..?

Diminished to a remnant, I'd say, but only in quantity. The contextual quality that remains the same is that the affected men are IN the respective person. Not all men were mercifuly placed in Christ before creation, in His determinate council.
Eph 1:4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

And.. we do NOT close the deal.. God does.. just as Ephesians 1:13 explains..

You certainly DO "close the deal" if the deal depends upon you accepting or rejecting it.

Eph1:13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Is it fair that men die in their sins..? Absolutely, especially when God afforded them the free gift of salvation which was rejected..

Their. You just did it again. Man decides, God abides... exactly backward.

What's unfair is that they never had the choice at all.. that's calvinistic nonsense as far as I'm concerned.. so I don't buy what that man's sellin.

Life is unfair, unless you're The Potter, then.
Calvin, Jesus, & Predestination, do not obliviate individual responsibility. It is a lie of Satan to say they do. I know you didn't say they do, but I haven't played the "Lie Of Satan" card in at least a year, & hope you'll forgive me, but I have to admit it felt sooooo gooooood.

Besides, everbody knows you wouldn't say "obliviate".

Right, it's the all means some trick.. lol.. for Adam it means all, but not for Christ, the last Adam.

"In Adam"... "In Christ"... think of one as a subset, like a "remnant" of the other. It's no Jedi Rebel Mind Trick, trust me.

So the gospel is the power of God to every one that is given the gift to believe it. OK.. is that what you're selling..?

Ro 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Ain't it? Din't I showed ya the "belief is a gift" verse? Wanna see it again?
Repentance is a gift too, wanna see?

That's right.. your only problem here is that you're reading into the text that this is only afforded to specific people.. the only reason a person comes to believe in Christ is because of the gospel.. and it goes out to all.. the Sower sows all over..

There's a few spots he's missed. Is that "fair"?
& what difference if he sows on stony ground or not, since nothin' will grow there anyway? Explain how that is fair?


]

I mentioned what I believe the scriptures mean by pre-destination.. it's not about individuals.. it's about God determining before the foundation of the world (pre) that every one who trusts in His Son, would be adopted into the family of God as sons and daughters.. this is our destination..

It has nothing to do with individuals... but rather with God determining this from the foundation of the world.

The foundation of the world was for the individuals who would inhabit it. You've made a distinction without a difference. The group of believers as a group were predestined yes, right along with each & every individual that made up the group, & He knew each one as intimately & predeterminately as a Potter forming & fitting an individual vessel in a group of vessels. This is the same Potter who effortlessly knows when a sparrow falls & the number of hairs on over 6 billion people's heads, He was not ignorant of who exactly He was predestining!

 

[vekarppe]

The faculty didn't choose the specific students but the students that were on the honor roll. The same way God chooses those who have successfully run the race to the finish line and the reward He will bestow on them.

What about Romans 8:29-30

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son,
in order that he might be the firstborn among any brothers. And those whom he predestined
he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he
also glorified. (ESV)

There Paul write that those whom God foreknew he predestined "to be conformed to the image of his Son" (cf. 1 John. 3:2). To be "glorified" is another way of saying that God's childern will be "conformed" to Jesus Christ. It is final goal of salvation. So according this passage, those who are elected by God are those who will "run the race to the finish line."

 

[vekarppe]

I have question: how can sinners be saved without unconditional election?

 

[Markea]

Problem in this view is that God[SIZE=-1] (alone) does not originate[/SIZE] salvation, but salvation is completely dependent on man's decision. Is this what the New Testament teach? I have a tendency to think it is not.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing;
it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Eph 2:8 is right on (of course).. and faith comes by hearing, and hearing (or understanding..ie, I hear what you're saying) by the word of God.

The parable of the Sower makes it clear that there is a not a problem with the seed.. it is good seed.. it is incorruptible seed.. the problem lies in where that good seed lands.. and the LORD explains this.. some didn't have much DEPTH.. ie, only a surface type of reception.. some of it was CHOKED by other things around it..

There's not a problem with the word of God which is Spirit and life.. it's simply as the word of God says.. that men loved darkness and WILL NOT come to the light, lest THEIR DEEDS be exposed..

I can't imagine why this is difficult for folks.. or how people would interpret that as not being made able to believe.. ? ? ?

 

[Markea]

Good day, Markea

The Scripture is clear:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

The Pronouns here refer to people, he choses people, and predestintes then as well. Even though these pronouns are not sigular they refer to people there is no way in the text to refute this.


In Him,

Bill

IT never ceases to amaze me where calvinists place the EMPHASIS when looking at Eph 1:4.. because without fail, they place the emphasis on US, rather than on HIM..

Here's the same verse...

According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love...

Then, Ephesians 1:13-14 go on to explain how this happened.. and it turns out that WE were not chosen from the foundation of the world.. but rather AFTER we trusted IN HIM, AFTER we heard the gospel..

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 2 affirms the fact that we were NOT chosen before the foundation of the world.. but rather that we too were vessels of wrath, fit for destruction, just as others... the scriptures are clear in teaching that CHRIST was the Lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world... not us.. we were dead and lost in trespasses and in sins..

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

It should be painfully obvious that WE were not chosen from the foundation of the world.. but rather Christ was.. and by trusting in Him (just as scripture declares), it was THEN that we were sealed (by God) with the Holy Spirit.

Before this (ie, in times past) we were children of disobedience, just as others.

Matthew's gospel quotes from Isaiah and teaches us clearly who the chosen One is..

Behold My servant, whom I have chosen; My beloved, in whom My soul is well pleased...

It's obvious that the scriptures refer to the Lord Jesus Christ as His chosen, as His beloved Son.. and we are accepted IN HIM, just as Ephesians declares.

 

[BBAS 64]

IT never ceases to amaze me where calvinists place the EMPHASIS when looking at Eph 1:4.. because without fail, they place the emphasis on US, rather than on HIM..

Here's the same verse...

According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love...

Then, Ephesians 1:13-14 go on to explain how this happened.. and it turns out that WE were not chosen from the foundation of the world.. but rather AFTER we trusted IN HIM, AFTER we heard the gospel..

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 2 affirms the fact that we were NOT chosen before the foundation of the world.. but rather that we too were vessels of wrath, fit for destruction, just as others... the scriptures are clear in teaching that CHRIST was the Lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world... not us.. we were dead and lost in trespasses and in sins..

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

It should be painfully obvious that WE were not chosen from the foundation of the world.. but rather Christ was.. and by trusting in Him (just as scripture declares), it was THEN that we were sealed (by God) with the Holy Spirit.

Before this (ie, in times past) we were children of disobedience, just as others.

Matthew's gospel quotes from Isaiah and teaches us clearly who the chosen One is..

Behold My servant, whom I have chosen; My beloved, in whom My soul is well pleased...

It's obvious that the scriptures refer to the Lord Jesus Christ as His chosen, as His beloved Son.. and we are accepted IN HIM, just as Ephesians declares.

Good Day, Markea

I do not belive that I ever said Jesus was not chosen, so what you have here is a big red hearing.

Let me see if I can undertstand what you are saying the object of (His) God's chosing (verb) is the phase "in Him" is that correct. Then we can look at the preptory phase "in Him" and see if an object of a verb can be used gramticlly in Greek along with a prepostion. I say it can not as it is by nature a place of holding.

I picked the apples and placed them in the box.

What is the verb and object of such verb??


By the way you never addressed the use of the pronouns here, even so Jesus is a proper name of a person so to contend that "people" are not predestined as you did falls flat under the wait of your own argument.

In Him,

Bill

 

[vekarppe]

IT never ceases to amaze me where calvinists place the EMPHASIS when looking at Eph 1:4.. because without fail, they place the emphasis on US, rather than on HIM..

Here's the same verse...

According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love...

Then, Ephesians 1:13-14 go on to explain how this happened.. and it turns out that WE were not chosen from the foundation of the world.. but rather AFTER we trusted IN HIM, AFTER we heard the gospel..

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.

Hi Markea. Though im not a Calvinist, I like to respond to your post. In Ephesians 1 Paul is listing spiritual blessing by which God has blessed us. These are the selection of the Father (vv. 4-6), the sacriface of the Son (vv. 7-12), and the seal of the Spirit (vv. 13-14). We who are believers are [SIZE=-1]chosen by God [/SIZE]in Christ before the foundation of the world. "In Christ" refers to the fact that there is no blessings without or outside Jesus Christ. Verse 11 tell us that "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of" God.

And what about verse 13?

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation,
and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

Paul does not speak of election here at all. He only state that we were sealed with Spirit when we heard the gospel and believed in Christ.

Ephesians 2 affirms the fact that we were NOT chosen before the foundation of the world.. but rather that we too were vessels of wrath, fit for destruction, just as others

Not true. There is nothing in chapter 2 that is contradictory to doctrine of election. It tell us that we were dead in sin and there is no way to salvastion other than God's mercy (vv. 4-9). Rather this passage confirm the idea of divine election.

It should be painfully obvious that WE were not chosen from the foundation of the world.. but rather Christ was.. and by trusting in Him (just as scripture declares), it was THEN that we were sealed (by God) with the Holy Spirit.

Well, Ephesians 1:4 actually say that WE (who now believe) were chosen IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world. And there is many other passages: Acts 13:48; Romans 8:28–30; 1 Thess. 1:4–5; 2 Thess. 2:13; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Peter 1:1; Rev. 13:7–8.

God "saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because
of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages
began." (2 Timothy 1:9)

 

[Markea]

Good Day, Markea

I do not belive that I ever said Jesus was not chosen, so what you have here is a big red hearing.

I didn't say that you did either.. I simply placed the emphasis on being chosen IN Christ, instead of us.

Let me see if I can undertstand what you are saying the object of (His) God's chosing (verb) is the phase "in Him" is that correct. Then we can look at the preptory phase "in Him" and see if an object of a verb can be used gramticlly in Greek along with a prepostion. I say it can not as it is by nature a place of holding.

I picked the apples and placed them in the box.

What is the verb and object of such verb??


By the way you never addressed the use of the pronouns here, even so Jesus is a proper name of a person so to contend that "people" are not predestined as you did falls flat under the wait of your own argument.

In Him,

Bill

If you'd like to play Mr English lesson, that's fine.. it's not a difficult lesson though.. your argument is that WE are chosen from the foundation of the world.. Is that correct..?

I'm simply showing you that Christ is chosen from the foundation of the world, and that we are chosen IN HIM after trusting in Him, after hearing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation..

Pretty simple difference.. you're trying to make it out to be an English lesson..

 

[LoG]

The same way God chooses those who have successfully run the race to the finish line and the reward He will bestow on them.

Wait a second the way I read it you say???

Where is the

chooses those who have successfully run the race to the finish line and the reward

In the context of the passage I quoted, you assumed it with out even reading it, so the fact that I read it and you did not is clear... so

Where in the contexxt do get this idea, the words are not even in the whole chapter. When you add to a context you misrepresent that which the text says.

Sorry, I assumed you would realize that I was alluding to the verse:

1Corinthians 9
24Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


And

Hebrews 12
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Paul cannot make it any clearer that we are running a race for that crown or as in my example, honor roll. The verse in Ephesians tells us what that crown consists of. and that God has predetermined this prize before He laid the foundations of the world. It is the prize that is predetermined not the winners.

1Cor 9:27 is also interesting when one considers that if Paul was teaching Calvinist predestination, then why does he mention the possibility of being a "castaway". This would be a complete impossibility if he had been truly predestined to receive the crown.

Sorry my friend but context applies to not only the chapter but also to the entire bible. Otherwise we miss the forest for the trees.
This is what makes reformed/calvinistic doctrine so dangerous. People stop running for the prize because they think they have already obtained it whereas Paul mentions how he himself is still running for the prize.