Praying to Mary - A Biblical Defense

[amariselle]

I was raised believing as you do.

Forgive me...

And that means?....

 

[Phil 1:21]

You stated...

One other thing that I'll add. (For your bashing pleasure.)

All catholics believe that Christ came and took Mary physically to heaven after her burial.

Forgive me...

She responded...

Yes they do, though that is nowhere found in Scripture and there is no evidence whatsoever that the early Church believed such a thing.

That doctrine was added much much later by the Catholic Church.

You asked...

What year would you say?

Forgive me...

She answered...

November 1, 1950

Munificentissimus Deus (November 1, 1950) | PIUS XII

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

And that means?....

Bible only.
Anything that sounds remotely catholic is automatically wrong.
There is nothing helpful to our salvation outside the bible.

Shall I continue?

Not angry BTW ~ Hope you're not reading that into my posts.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

You stated...



She responded...



You asked...



She answered...

She pointed that out... I had not seen it, flew right by...

Christian history. Where does the term Theotokos come from? What does it have to do with Christiology?
(The nature of Christ)

Prayers to Saints and the use of Icons is not a requirement. It is allowed.

Forgive me...

 

[amariselle]

Bible only.
Anything that sounds remotely catholic is automatically wrong.
There is nothing helpful to our salvation outside the bible.

Shall I continue?

Forgive me...

This is where you quite obviously misunderstand me. Anything "remotely Catholic" is not "automatically" wrong. You assume I have not done research, that I have not gone to Mass, that I have not taken the time to test all things by the word of God.

This is, no doubt, the main reason why you believe that I am "attacking" and "bashing" the Catholic Church, even when I quote official sources and link directly to them.

There are also former Catholics here that share what is officially taught by the Catholic Church and how is contradicts Scripture, they too back up what they are saying, and they too are accused of "bashing."

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

This is where you quite obviously misunderstand me. Anything "remotely Catholic" is not "automatically" wrong. You assume I have not done research, that I have not gone to Mass, that I have not taken the time to test all things by the word of God.

This is, no doubt, the main reason why you believe that I am "attacking" and "bashing" the Catholic Church, even when I quote official sources and link directly to them.

There are also former Catholics here that share what is officially taught by the Catholic Church and how is contradicts Scripture, they too back up what they are saying, and they too are accused of "bashing."

Okay, tell me something catholic that is not shared by others that is correct.

Forgive me...

 

[amariselle]

I guess there can be no actual discussion when points and objections are raised, official sources cited to support the objections and then the objections are simply dismissed as "bashing."

That always puts an end to any possibility of intelligent discourse. (Which is, I think, the point of a forum) Why be here at all if we're not willing to take an honest look at the particular subject at hand?

It's honestly the easy way out and a complete dismissal of the person's argument or objection to simply dismiss it as an "attack" or as "bashing."

 

[amariselle]

Okay, tell me something catholic that is not shared by others that is correct.

Forgive me...

You've missed my entire point. I have read a good deal of the Catholic Catechism and I have gone to many Masses, I have spoken to Catholics, the maternal side of my family is largely Catholic, my mother was raised Catholic.

I test everything by the word of God, as we are told to do in Scripture. Like the Bereans.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Really.

I backed up everything I said with direct quotes and links.

Furthermore, this thread is specifically about a Biblical defense of praying to Mary, so that is what should be addressed.

Trust me, this is a common response when debating some denominations. People respond in the way they are taught. When I came up in the RCC, that's exactly how we were responded to when we questioned dogma, so that's how we responded to others when they presented evidence that challenged our beliefs. You shouldn't take it personally.

The funny thing is the church I now attend encourages the congregation to vet their pastoral teaching and challenge them accordingly. It's a win-win. The congregation is studying the word, and if the pastor got something wrong (which I've only seen once and it was very minor), they learn from it as well. Honestly, it's a huge breath of fresh air.

 

[amariselle]

Trust me, this is a common response when debating some denominations. People respond in the way they are taught. When I came up in the RCC, that's exactly how we were responded to when we questioned dogma, so that's how we responded to others when they presented evidence that challenged our beliefs. You shouldn't take it personally.

True. I suppose, however, since I have apparently been reported, I may in fact face some consequence, even though I have tried repeatedly to support what I have presented.

God bless.

 

[Phil 1:21]

True. I suppose, however, since I have apparently been reported, I may in fact face some consequence, even though I have tried repeatedly to support what I have presented.

God bless.

I'm sure the staff here can see legitimate complaints from those that are not. Personally, I wouldn't worry about it, nor would I let it stop you from respectfully and factually discussing these issues.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Hippolytus (210ad) speaks of the Theotokos being used in liturgical services.

But the pious confession of the believer is that, with a view to our salvation, . . . the Creator of all things incorporated with Himself a rational soul and a sensible body from the all-holy Mary, ever-virgin, by an undefiled conception, without conversion, and was made man in nature, but separate from wickedness: the same was perfect God, and the same was perfect man; the same was in nature at once perfect God and man

Here is an excerpt from a liturgy from 330AD

From the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the Great:

All of creation rejoices in you, O Full of Grace,
The assembly of Angels and the race of men.
O Sanctified Temple and Rational Paradise! O Glory of Virgins!
From you, God was incarnate and became a child, our God before the ages.
He made your body into a throne, and your womb He made more spacious than the heavens.
All of creation rejoices in you, O Full of Grace! Glory to you!

"Theotokos" was recognized by the Orthodox Church at Third Ecumenical Council held at Ephesus in 431.
It had already been in use for some time in the devotional and liturgical life of the Church. The theological significance of the title is to emphasize that Mary's son, Jesus, is fully God, as well as fully human, and that Jesus' two natures (divine and human) were united in a single Person of the Trinity.

So again I ask... when (and maybe where) did veneration of the Theotokos start?

Forgive me...

 

[Phil 1:21]

She pointed that out... I had not seen it, flew right by...

You're forgiven.

 

[amariselle]

Several years ago I read a book on the Marian apparition at Fatima. I believe it was my grandmother's as it was in with her things, which we received after she passed away. It could have been my aunt's as well (the one who was a nun for many years).

As this "Marian apparition" deals with Mary and is a basis for many of the prayers said to her, I'll post this link for anyone who want to look into the claims and requests this apparition made.

Fatima and the Immaculate Heart of Mary

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Here is a snip from the earliest know Christian liturgy.

It comes from Syria.

The Priest says this prayer quietly:: - O mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, beseech for me the only-begotten Son, who was born of thee, to forgive me my offences and my sins, and to accept from my feeble and sinful hands this sacrifice which my weakness offers upon this altar, through thy intercession for me, O holy mother.

The liturgy itself bears the name of Addai who was a student of St. Thomas, sent into Syria and Iraq.

The Syrian Church could have made it up... but that won't change the timeline.

Forgive me...

 

[amariselle]

Still waiting for a Biblical defense for praying to Mary.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Still waiting for a Biblical defense for praying to Mary.

Hope you're not holding your breath. It's not in there.

Forgive me...

 

[Phil 1:21]

Hope you're not holding your breath. It's not in there.

Forgive me...

Thank you for your honest answer.

 

[amariselle]

Hope you're not holding your breath. It's not in there.

Forgive me...

Exactly. And yet, no one who prays to Mary seems to be able to have any honest discussion as to why that's important.

Oh well.

I hope you have a good day.

God bless.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

People should not be reported for responding to a thread that would instigate biblical responses.


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