Praying, repetitiveness, concentration

[Goatee]

Note the Orthodox pray the Rosary, for example, St. Seraphim of Sarov is famous for it, but we prefer the Jesus Prayer, and when we pray the Rosary, we omit the Mysteries.

The reason for this is that our monastic fathers through a trial and error process determined the unceasing use of the imagination in prayer is unhealthy, prevents continual prayer from occuring, and can lead to madness. The preference is to not use the visual imagination at all.

Thank you.

Do you find it hard to blank the mind when praying? I always have images galore in there!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Note the Orthodox pray the Rosary, for example, St. Seraphim of Sarov is famous for it, but we prefer the Jesus Prayer, and when we pray the Rosary, we omit the Mysteries.

The reason for this is that our monastic fathers through a trial and error process determined the unceasing use of the imagination in prayer is unhealthy, prevents continual prayer from occuring, and can lead to madness. The preference is to not use the visual imagination at all.

I have a VERY great respect for the teachings on prayer from your Tradition, Paul.

I am glad that you mentioned discussing it with one's spiritual father in your other post. I was a bit alarmed at the idea of sending someone unfamiliar with all of this to the Philokalia on their own. St. Ignatius Brianchaninov's book is excellent though.

Lately I have been watching someone's videos on YouTube that my "watch later" queue immediately jumps into from someone's saved list. I noted that at least the first one (and I think the others) appear to be a series of classes taught by a Coptic priest to an audience of Catholics.

This is an EXCELLENT video. The little story about what happened because of someone's prayer at the beginning was amazing and inspiring.

The video is here: Fr. Anthony Messeh - an Introduction to the Jesus Prayer (but despite the title, it is about prayer in general). Excellent, and very much addresses the question in the OP. @antletems - this might be more helpful to you than the podcast I shared. I would recommend this video to anyone of any Tradition or denomination. (Though I would say - one must be prepared to have one's toes stepped on just a bit maybe - Fr. Anthony "tells it like it is" and will criticize when needed - he starts off by saying that the Orthodox Church does not consistently pray in the way of the Church of Acts.)

 

[Goatee]

I have read the Philokalia. Well, actually 'Writings From The Philokalia, On Prayer Of The Heart'. Translated from the Russian text 'Dobrotolubiye'. Quite some time ago now though but i still got the book! I got it 2nd hand, 1905 is the date of it.

Thank you for the prayer link.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you.

Do you find it hard to blank the mind when praying? I always have images galore in there!

I know you weren't asking me, but it is something I sometimes struggle with. You may not be exactly like me, since our Traditions have taught you and I differently. But even though I know we are not to imagine visual images, and I resist, sometimes they pop into my mind like a barrage of distractions. In the very same manner as distractions.

If you know anything about the "Uncreated Light" that is a very high experience of prayer - experiencing God Himself - that the most highly admired Saints describe - well, if you know anything about that, I've even had temptations of visions of light. However - I know FULL WELL that I am not a pray-er like one of those Saints, and not purified to the degree that I can expect such a thing. It's a temptation, and a common one, so I put that out too.

When the barrage of images is too strong, and they will prevent me continuing in prayer (by the way, we believe the struggle itself has some value!) ... but if I can't overcome it, I will open my eyes and gaze at an icon instead, and then it becomes easy for me to resist the imagination.

Just offering in case it's helpful. A spiritual father from an EO or OO Tradition who knows how to guide one in developing prayer would be able to help more.

 

[Goatee]

I know you weren't asking me, but it is something I sometimes struggle with. You may not be exactly like me, since our Traditions have taught you and I differently. But even though I know we are not to imagine visual images, and I resist, sometimes they pop into mind like a barrage of distractions. In the very same manner as distractions.

If you know anything about the "Uncreated Light" that is a very high experience of prayer - experiencing God Himself - that the most highly admired Saints describe - well, if you know anything about that, I've even had temptations of visions of light. However - I know FULL WELL that I am not a pray-er like one of those Saints, and not purified to the degree that I can expect such a thing. It's a temptation, and a common one, so I put that out too.

When the barrage of images is too strong, and they will prevent me continuing in prayer (by the way, we believe the struggle itself has some value!) ... but if I can't overcome it, I will open my eyes and gaze at an icon instead, and then it becomes easy for me to resist the imagination.

Just offering in case it's helpful. A spiritual father from an EO or OO Tradition who knows how to guide one in developing prayer would be able to help more.

Lovely post. Thanks for sharing. I do try to block out things more now than ever before but it is hard. I do see the Crucifix in my mind when praying or i see an image of Jesus being nailed to the cross when saying the Rosary. Deliberate images i do think about.

 

[Rick Otto]

This proposes a model of prayer which I feel focuses too mich on prayer as a petition, when this very frequently is not the case at all.

We are commanded to pray without ceasing.

Now on the subject of vain repetitions, our Lord was clearly referring to the glossolalia engaged in by members of various Pagan religions and also some Gnostic cults. There is a recovered text of one of the Mithras mysteries which contains an example of this; a prescribed sequence of syllables that meant nothing in any language, usually vowells, thought to be some kind of password.

The Mithras mysteries and Gnosticism were the main rivals to Christianity during the first two centuries.

Now, praying repeatedly the Lord's Prayer, or an "arrow prayer" like Kyrie Eleison or the Jesus Prayer, cannot possibly be vain repetition because the request is not in vain, and the prayers are not offered for the sake of vanity.

~

To the OP I would suggest the Philokalia. This is the definitive guide to unceasing prayer, and one can find a text of it online. However, it is written with a monastic audience in mind. Another valuable book on this subject, which you can obtain via iBooks, is "On the Prayer of Jesus" by St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, the celebrated 19th century Russian hierarch and ascetic.

Alas, I do not know of any Roman Catholic titles on the subject, except for Thomas Merton's translation of the Sayings of the Desert Fathers, which is incomplete; there are better versions available. These sayings should definitely be read.

Lastly, someone well acquainted with the Christian tradition of unceasing prayer might do well to read the writings of the medieval Yemenese Jewish scholar Maimonides, on prayer, which are interesting to the extent they seem to reflect and encapsulate the Patristic understanding, except Maimonides seems to have lost confidence in the idea of prayer as petition, which prayers are, but it is easy to see how someone outside of Christianity might give up on that aspect owing to the frustrations of being either continually ignored or tricked by demons.

~

It is extremely important to discuss your rule of prayer woth your priest.

Mhm.
Yes, I was addressing that one form, however I do believe the category of prayer includes conversation in that prayer is communication.
That said, thank you for the valuable references.

 

[Rick Otto]

... The preference is to not use the visual imagination at all.

That has been my inclination since I can remember.
Not that they don't occur, but they are like the scenery while driving... I only occasionally acknowledge, but not enough to distract my driving.

 

[Rick Otto]

I found this...

 

[~Anastasia~]

I found this...

Thank you, Rick. I will have to add this one to my list. Looking forward to watching.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I found this...

Anything with Metropolitan Kallistos is worth watching.

 

[Galilee63]

I have experienced this on a few occasions over past months if I have not immersed my heart and soul in Jesus' Ocean of Mercy and Blessed Holy Sacred Heart and in Mother Mary's Holy Immaculate Heart before or during Jesus' Divine Mercy Chaplet, Novena and The Holy Rosary daily.

However Jesus, God, The Holy Spirit and Mother Mary have guided me over past years to pray for 14 Holy causes and these require concentration while focussing and immersing my heart and mind in Jesus, His Sorrowful Mysteries and Bitter Passion (immersed myself at the same time). Jesus Loves it when I immerse my heart and soul in His Bitter Passion and go deeper and deeper every time and feel Mother Mary's Holy Sorrows asking The Holy Spirit, Blessed Holy Mary Magdalene, St John of The Cross and of course Mother Mary Herself to open up my heart through Jesus and The Holy Spirit.

What an incredible change takes place within my heart - I love You and Thank you dear Holy Spirit, Mother Mary and God's Blessed Holy Saints and Martyrs.

Then immersing the Recipients of the 14 Holy causes in Jesus' ocean of Mercy, Jesus' Blessed Holy Wounds, for The Holy Spirit in Holy Discernment flowing through all of the Recipients hearts souls minds and bodies, immersing them in Mother Mary's Holy Immaculate Heart with Jesus requesting certain Holy causes at the time within both His Divine Mercy Chaplet and Novena and within Mother Mary's Most Holy Rosary.

Then while about to focus on each 1st, 2nd or 3rd Holy Mysteries, Jesus requests me to 'focus on His Bitter Passion' on most of the daily occasions including within Jesus' Holy Wound Chaplet.

However, I am guilty of having wandered at times when tired and I call upon God's Holy Saints through Jesus and Mother Mary to flow through our Lord's and Mother Mary's Discipline (Holy), strength and focus with The Holy Spirit - every time an instant change with God's Loving Holy strength and focus granted!

Praise and Glory be to Thee Dear God my Heavenly Father through our Lord Jesus and Mother Mary now and for eternity. Amen.

 

[Goatee]

I have experienced this on a few occasions over past months if I have not immersed my heart and soul in Jesus' Ocean of Mercy and Blessed Holy Sacred Heart and in Mother Mary's Holy Immaculate Heart before or during Jesus' Divine Mercy Chaplet, Novena and The Holy Rosary daily.

However Jesus, God, The Holy Spirit and Mother Mary have guided me over past years to pray for 14 Holy causes and these require concentration while focussing and immersing my heart and mind in Jesus, His Sorrowful Mysteries and Bitter Passion (immersed myself at the same time). Jesus Loves it when I immerse my heart and soul in His Bitter Passion and go deeper and deeper every time and feel Mother Mary's Holy Sorrows asking The Holy Spirit, Blessed Holy Mary Magdalene, St John of The Cross and of course Mother Mary Herself to open up my heart through Jesus and The Holy Spirit.

What an incredible change takes place within my heart - I love You and Thank you dear Holy Spirit, Mother Mary and God's Blessed Holy Saints and Martyrs.

Then immersing the Recipients of the 14 Holy causes in Jesus' ocean of Mercy, Jesus' Blessed Holy Wounds, for The Holy Spirit in Holy Discernment flowing through all of the Recipients hearts souls minds and bodies, immersing them in Mother Mary's Holy Immaculate Heart with Jesus requesting certain Holy causes at the time within both His Divine Mercy Chaplet and Novena and within Mother Mary's Most Holy Rosary.

Then while about to focus on each 1st, 2nd or 3rd Holy Mysteries, Jesus requests me to 'focus on His Bitter Passion' on most of the daily occasions including within Jesus' Holy Wound Chaplet.

However, I am guilty of having wandered at times when tired and I call upon God's Holy Saints through Jesus and Mother Mary to flow through our Lord's and Mother Mary's Discipline (Holy), strength and focus with The Holy Spirit - every time an instant change with God's Loving Holy strength and focus granted!

Praise and Glory be to Thee Dear God my Heavenly Father through our Lord Jesus and Mother Mary now and for eternity. Amen.

Nice post. Thank you for sharing.

How do you pray the sorrowful mystery? Ho do you concentrate on each Hail Mary etc?

I only ever pray the Sorrowful mystery as it means so much to me.

Thanks

 

[ev-8891]

Do you find it hard to blank the mind when praying? I always have images galore in there!

What do you mean with "blank the mind when praying"?

 

[Goatee]

What do you mean with "blank the mind when praying"?

Keep the mind from putting up images

 

[ev-8891]

Keep the mind from putting up images

Sorry, but stupid questions: what images? And do you mean you want to blank the mind or fill the mind?

 

[Goatee]

Blank means empty.

When one close ones eyes one usually has thoughts / images running through the mind.

 

[ev-8891]

Blank means empty.
When one close ones eyes one usually has thoughts / images running through the mind.

Pray is the way you communicate with God. Like if you're talking with everyone else, normally you just don't empty your mind, do you?
Normally closing eyes is an easier way for me to talk to God, but did you try to write down your prayer first? Maybe it is easier for you?

 

[Goatee]

Pray is the way you communicate with God. Like if you're talking with everyone else, normally you just don't empty your mind, do you?
Normally closing eyes is an easier way for me to talk to God, but did you try to write down your prayer first? Maybe it is easier for you?

When you pray the Our Father does your mind stay blank?

 

[ev-8891]

When you pray the Our Father does your mind stay blank?

Mmh, I rarely pray Our Father. When I pray it, then I would say it slowly so that at least I really acknowledge what I said. Sometimes instead of `give us our bread`, I also say `bless us today`. Also, sometimes I say `forgive our sins` instead `forgive our debts`. It's the same meaning basically.
When I pray it, I only pray it once but with some deep reflection - and speaking it slowly helps me at least to recognize and to reflect the meaning of each word.
I didn't see the sense to repeat Our Father every 2 minutes after finishing once.

Our Father is a perfect sample of a pray, because Jesus said we should pray like that.
But generally my pray consists of:

1). Greetings to Father in Heaven by acknowledging that He is King of King, Creator of Universe, His Kingdom rules, ...
2). Give thanks to everything you want to thank / be thankful for, for instance your family, your job, your life. But also thanking that His Son came to redeem the sin, or thanking the Holy Spirit to fulfill our life, also you can thank for His forgiveness because we are sinners
3). Ask for what you need, something you want to ask for.
4). Lastly ask for His constant guidance through Holy Spirit.

That's basically how we should pray. It's very easy and very simple but I rarely have the same words in every pray. But the most important thing is not that a pray must be very beautiful, simple, or easy, or complex, but it's only about your honesty and being sincere in front of Him. I would say normally the greetings to Him would always be the first, but thanking Him and asking Him for what you need can also be in reversed order. I don't think there is any strict rule how you must make the pray. Finally it's your heart communicating with Him in your mind, again it's not the degree of complexity or choice of beautiful words which matters, but solely your heart through your mind. Wordings are second to that.

 

[Goatee]

Thanks for the reply.

I love the Our Father and say it regularly. Just like the Rosary is a beautiful pray to Jesus.

Empty words in prayer mean nothing. One has to pray from the heart. Even us Catholics do this with our Rosaries etc etc.