Praying, repetitiveness, concentration

[BeStill&Know]

The Living Bible isn't the best translation to understand what the Scriptures actually say ...

Christ Himself prayed the same prayer in Gethsemane repeatedly.

Seems to me that we can't have a better example.

But I do understand why people read the passage against "vain repetition" and assume that it means "all repetition is vain". But I think we do well to consider that we should not pray long prayers, thinking we are doing something good because we use so many words. Without the heart, many words are useless - and so in vain, and only feed our sense of vanity as well.

Hello Anastasia, could you give me references please? The Living Bible I believe is a paraphrase, so its good for reading/understanding but not detailed study. Which Bible do you use?

 

[Hallstone]

If it were condemned, why did Christ do it?

Matthew 26
39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.” 40 And He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “So, you men could not keep watch with Me for one hour? 41 Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” 42 He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, “My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done.” 43 Again He came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy. 44 And He left them again, and went away and prayed a third time, saying the same thing once more.

There are certainly vain prayers. Prayers can be empty and vain, whether they are repeated or made up on the spot. But by the same token, just because something is repeated does not make it vain.

Do you think praying the Psalms is evil?

And as far as repetition, if a man tells his wife every day that he loves her, does that make it vain and false?

We should use wisdom in discerning such things. Sometimes people criticize what they don't understand, because they make assumptions about it. But if it is not their practice, they often have no idea what they are really talking about.

I haven't seen even one psalm that repeats a verse 100 times, or even as much as 10 times.
Repeating the same words over and over in order to try and derive some spiritual benefit from it is a pagan practice that was adopted by false Christianity. Pagans chant, Christians don't. Just because something is ancient, does not mean that it automatically has value.

 

[Meowzltov]

Matthew 6:7-8
“Don’t recite the same prayer over and over as the heathen do, who think prayers are answered only by repeating them again and again. Remember, your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him!
What would any human person think was going on with you if you said the same exact words to them everyday? Isn't God greater than His creation?

The key part of this verse is "as the heathen do." It does not eliminate repetition entirely. Jesus was a Jew, and as a Jew recited prayers that were the same each day, such as the Standing Prayer.

 

[BeStill&Know]

The key part of this verse is "as the heathen do." It does not eliminate repetition entirely. Jesus was a Jew, and as a Jew recited prayers that were the same each day, such as the Standing Prayer.

Good Day, Open Heart,
Maybe I am misunderstanding repetition? For example, I do pray repeatedly for a healing for others or myself over days, weeks and years, among other topics. I understand the word here to mean a memorized phrase or phrases written by someone else other than the person praying. Yes, Jesus is a Jew however He broke (or maybe separated is a better word) Jewish tradition if it was not the Fathers Heart. Remember, there were traditions at the time of Jesus that had been implemented by Rabbis not the Lord.
Matthew 15:3-9Tree of Life Version (TLV)
3 Jesus said, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’a]">[a] and ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother must be put to death.’ b]">[b] 5 But you say, ‘Whoever tells his father or mother, “Whatever you might have gained from me is a gift to God,” c]">[c] 6 he need not honor his father.’ On account of your tradition, you made void the word of God.
8 ‘This people honors Me with their lips,
but their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”d]">[d]
BTW am I in a Catholic section of CF? Sorry I did not realize it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I haven't seen even one psalm that repeats a verse 100 times, or even as much as 10 times.
Repeating the same words over and over in order to try and derive some spiritual benefit from it is a pagan practice that was adopted by false Christianity. Pagans chant, Christians don't. Just because something is ancient, does not mean that it automatically has value.

Actually, the second half of all of the 26 verses of Psalm 136 are identical. The reason seems to be that it was sung antiphonally with one choir at one end of the chamber and the other, responsive choir, at the opposite end. One choir would sing the first half of a verse and the other would respond with "For His lovingkindness endures forever."

Also, Psalms 14 and 53 are virtually identical to each other. Moreover, a larger portion of the first section of them is quoted by Paul in Romans 3.

 

[Meowzltov]

Maybe I am misunderstanding repetition? For example, I do pray repeatedly for a healing for others or myself over days, weeks and years, among other topics. I understand the word here to mean a memorized phrase or phrases written by someone else other than the person praying. Yes, Jesus is a Jew however He broke (or maybe separated is a better word) Jewish tradition if it was not the Fathers Heart. Remember, there were traditions at the time of Jesus that had been implemented by Rabbis not the Lord.

Pagans pray to false gods. Thus their repetitions are vain. Jews and Christians do not. Our repetitions are not.

You have been taught to pray improvisationally, which is wonderful. We teach the children in our catechism this skill as well. But it is not the only form of prayer. Jesus, as a Jew, prayed community prayers along with other Jews, such as the Standing prayer. IOW prayers which were pre-written and read aloud or memorized. It is absolutely ridiculous to think he did not participate in synagogue prayers.

In fact, the Lord's prayer is a tag-on to the end of the Standing Prayer, since the disciples asked him to teach them to pray as John taught his disciples -- it was the culture of the day for Rabbis to teach their disciples tag-ons to the end of the Standing Prayer.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hello Anastasia, could you give me references please? The Living Bible I believe is a paraphrase, so its good for reading/understanding but not detailed study. Which Bible do you use?

Hello BeStill&Know,

I'd be happy to, which reference are you asking for? Christ's prayer in Gethsemane can be found in Matthew 26; I quoted v. 39-44 a few posts up for another member. I'm thinking that's the one you want, instead of the one about not making vain repetitions? Anyway, that one is I believe in Matt. 6:7.

I use several translations of the Scriptures - most often the King James, New American Standard Bible, and Eastern Orthodox Bible, and cross-checking in the Greek when I need to.

The KJV (imo) is a fairly accurate translation and while it has some problems, it is maybe the most accurate of common translations. The NASB is also very accurate, and often more understandable for modern English-speakers. The EOB is translated from Greek by Greeks, and for me is very readable and sometimes opens a new (and usually very simple) understanding of things.

I have an old Living Bible which I'm very fond of, because my Grandmother gave it to me when I was a young child. But I don't use it even for reading. There are far too many instances where the translators imposed their own interpretation in trying to make it more "understandable". (I think that's almost unavoidable - not saying this as criticism, because it's probably a natural thing to do - but the result is a problem for me.)

I hope you didn't take my post as sharp criticism, but I cringe a bit when I read things like that, because it's essentially putting things into Scripture that are not there, and it can lead to a lot of confusion and misunderstanding.

(Oh, and you are not in a Catholic section of the forums - not at all. This is General Theology, which is open to all Christians, so you will actually get all kinds of opinions in here. You said nothing wrong. )

God be with you!

 

[BeStill&Know]

Pagans pray to false gods. Thus their repetitions are vain. Jews and Christians do not. Our repetitions are not.

You have been taught to pray improvisationally, which is wonderful. We teach the children in our catechism this skill as well. But it is not the only form of prayer. Jesus, as a Jew, prayed community prayers along with other Jews, such as the Standing prayer. IOW prayers which were pre-written and read aloud or memorized. It is absolutely ridiculous to think he did not participate in synagogue prayers.

In fact, the Lord's prayer is a tag-on to the end of the Standing Prayer, since the disciples asked him to teach them to pray as John taught his disciples -- it was the culture of the day for Rabbis to teach their disciples tag-ons to the end of the Standing Prayer.

Good evening sister, I guess on this matter I will have to agree to dis-agree until further proof of some kind. Jesus of course was not an ordinary Rabbi and it's recorded He did many things that other Rabbi's were offended by, thus they wanted Him crucified.
Un-less it is recorded that He did Standing Prayer in the New Testament then it is only an assumption. However, it may be possible He did Standing prayer as not to openly offend and thereby be able to reveal Himself to them. For I know He is merciful.
If someone's heart and Spirit is in rote prayer, I understand this.
Not being raised religious, this is very strange to me. This among many others topics are not worth dividing up the body of Christ. We are called to love one another. Don't you agree?

 

[BeStill&Know]

Hello BeStill&Know,

I'd be happy to, which reference are you asking for? Christ's prayer in Gethsemane can be found in Matthew 26; I quoted v. 39-44 a few posts up for another member. I'm thinking that's the one you want, instead of the one about not making vain repetitions? Anyway, that one is I believe in Matt. 6:7.

I use several translations of the Scriptures - most often the King James, New American Standard Bible, and Eastern Orthodox Bible, and cross-checking in the Greek when I need to.

The KJV (imo) is a fairly accurate translation and while it has some problems, it is maybe the most accurate of common translations. The NASB is also very accurate, and often more understandable for modern English-speakers. The EOB is translated from Greek by Greeks, and for me is very readable and sometimes opens a new (and usually very simple) understanding of things.

I have an old Living Bible which I'm very fond of, because my Grandmother gave it to me when I was a young child. But I don't use it even for reading. There are far too many instances where the translators imposed their own interpretation in trying to make it more "understandable". (I think that's almost unavoidable - not saying this as criticism, because it's probably a natural thing to do - but the result is a problem for me.)

I hope you didn't take my post as sharp criticism, but I cringe a bit when I read things like that, because it's essentially putting things into Scripture that are not there, and it can lead to a lot of confusion and misunderstanding.

(Oh, and you are not in a Catholic section of the forums - not at all. This is General Theology, which is open to all Christians, so you will actually get all kinds of opinions in here. You said nothing wrong. )

God be with you!

Good evening Anastasia, they are all good. I go to Biblegateway but I did not see EOB there? If it is written in Greek then I could not understand it.
I started reading their Tree of Life Bible. Occasionally there is a Jewish word I have to Google. It is true, many Bible versions are not accurate to the original text, they're mainly paraphrased. I do need to defend the Living Bible which I think my version was "The Way"
Though it is not an accurate word by word, my very first Bible KJV I could not understand as a tween. So I put it aside., and forgot it. But God is good, a girlfriend gave me the Living Bible, but the print was so small, it strained my eyes. Later my mother-in-law, (Catholic BTW) gave me "The Way". I dived into it relishing every word and stayed up nights reading it. My point is, IMO, a Bible is only good to the reader if they can understand it, and/or relate to it.
About Christ's prayer in Gethsemane, repeating His request I don't see it as rote prayer. I mean to say this appears the only time He repeated this request. I don't think it was a formula prayer, He did not repeat it before that night or after He was captured. if we were drowning, lets say, we may pray repeatedly for someone to rescue us, but we never before the occasion of drowning or after we are save would we repeat the same prayer. I don't think rote prayers are evil, Anastasia I just don't see them as personal prayers to a living being. But like I posted before, I often repeat "The Lord's Prayer", and "Psalm 23 "when the need arises for concentration/refocusing/centering on the Lord. If others do rote praying for a similar reason, then I see nothing wrong.I pray you have a good night.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Good evening Anastasia, they are all good. I go to Biblegateway but I did not see EOB there? If it is written in Greek then I could not understand it.
I started reading their Tree of Life Bible. Occasionally there is a Jewish word I have to Google. It is true, many Bible versions are not accurate to the original text, they're mainly paraphrased. I do need to defend the Living Bible which I think my version was "The Way"
Though it is not an accurate word by word, my very first Bible KJV I could not understand as a tween. So I put it aside., and forgot it. But God is good, a girlfriend gave me the Living Bible, but the print was so small, it strained my eyes. Later my mother-in-law, (Catholic BTW) gave me "The Way". I dived into it relishing every word and stayed up nights reading it. My point is, IMO, a Bible is only good to the reader if they can understand it, and/or relate to it.
About Christ's prayer in Gethsemane, repeating His request I don't see it as rote prayer. I mean to say this appears the only time He repeated this request. I don't think it was a formula prayer, He did not repeat it before that night or after He was captured. if we were drowning, lets say, we may pray repeatedly for someone to rescue us, but we never before the occasion of drowning or after we are save would we repeat the same prayer. I don't think rote prayers are evil, Anastasia I just don't see them as personal prayers to a living being. But like I posted before, I often repeat "The Lord's Prayer", and "Psalm 23 "when the need arises for concentration/refocusing/centering on the Lord. If others do rote praying for a similar reason, then I see nothing wrong.I pray you have a good night.

Hello BeStill,

Yes, it is indeed very true that a Bible must be understood to be of any use. I'm glad you made good use of yours. In fact, I started out reading The Living Bible, also, as a child, but for some reason the King James never really gave me trouble (though I did not until I was much older understand some of the expressions, but the lack of understanding the fact that "bowels" related to "feelings" for example did not really hinder me - that sort of thing). I still have my old Living Bible and plan to keep it all my life, God willing, as it is very dear to me for sentimental reasons.

The EOB is not part of any online collection like Bible Gateway, afaik. It's an English translation, done by the Greek Patriarchate I believe. I downloaded my copy for about $3 - I don't have a print copy.

There are a couple of things being discussed in this thread. Yes, I think the OP is asking mainly about the formal prayers of the Church. The usual objections by most Protestants is against "vain repetition" because they are often taught that any repetition in prayer is vain, according to that Scripture. But my position would be that repetition is not automatically vain, since Christ repeated His prayer in the Garden.

Vain prayer is something else, and would of course be a problem.

Saying prayers by rote (with little mental involvement) would be a problem.

Formal prayers said in this way would be of no benefit, and indeed, most Orthodox would tell you they can be damaging - if for no other reason than that the intent of prayer is communication with God, and if one pays so little attention to God while praying, this can be spiritually destructive. (There can be exceptions, such as when a person is in intense physical pain and the words and the action of prayer can be a comfort, even though the mind is essentially unable to really pray in such a difficult circumstance.)

The formal prayers are not meant to be said mechanically while praying though. They are meant to be made one's own prayer.

I have found great benefit I never expected in praying the prayers of our Church. Sometimes I want to praise God and I don't have the words to magnify His greatness as my heart desires - and then the words of some of the Saints in their prayers beautifully express what I want to say. If you've ever prayed a Psalm and found great comfort in it, then maybe you have experienced something of this. Not only that, the prayers are so rich and expansive that I have learned from them and been shaped by them, and had my attitude of prayer enriched and deepened by them.

No, they should never be prayed by rote. (Mechanically, without real involvement.)

This is a sort of side point, but I was interested to learn that while there are certain prayers that are always prayed every Liturgy, so a priest recites the same things every time he does the service - the Church actually forbids him from reciting them from memory. Even though he surely could - I've memorized them myself from hearing him pray them. But he must always read them, because the Church doesn't want to risk them being a simple recitation. That is part of his reminder.

Anyway - it is certainly not required that anyone pray them. They are simply tools that are there for us to use. But to be honest, at times I find my prayer much more focused and deeper when I'm not distracted, casting about in my mind for how to say what I want. But I pray both formal prayers and extemporaneous prayers every day. They each serve their own purpose. But the formal prayers are very much my own, real prayer, even though someone else gives me their way of expressing.

I hope that makes some sense.

I pray you have a good night as well.

 

[BeStill&Know]

Hello BeStill,

Yes, it is indeed very true that a Bible must be understood to be of any use. I'm glad you made good use of yours. In fact, I started out reading The Living Bible, also, as a child, but for some reason the King James never really gave me trouble (though I did not until I was much older understand some of the expressions, but the lack of understanding the fact that "bowels" related to "feelings" for example did not really hinder me - that sort of thing). I still have my old Living Bible and plan to keep it all my life, God willing, as it is very dear to me for sentimental reasons.

The EOB is not part of any online collection like Bible Gateway, afaik. It's an English translation, done by the Greek Patriarchate I believe. I downloaded my copy for about $3 - I don't have a print copy.

There are a couple of things being discussed in this thread. Yes, I think the OP is asking mainly about the formal prayers of the Church. The usual objections by most Protestants is against "vain repetition" because they are often taught that any repetition in prayer is vain, according to that Scripture. But my position would be that repetition is not automatically vain, since Christ repeated His prayer in the Garden.

Vain prayer is something else, and would of course be a problem.

Saying prayers by rote (with little mental involvement) would be a problem.

Formal prayers said in this way would be of no benefit, and indeed, most Orthodox would tell you they can be damaging - if for no other reason than that the intent of prayer is communication with God, and if one pays so little attention to God while praying, this can be spiritually destructive. (There can be exceptions, such as when a person is in intense physical pain and the words and the action of prayer can be a comfort, even though the mind is essentially unable to really pray in such a difficult circumstance.)

The formal prayers are not meant to be said mechanically while praying though. They are meant to be made one's own prayer.

I have found great benefit I never expected in praying the prayers of our Church. Sometimes I want to praise God and I don't have the words to magnify His greatness as my heart desires - and then the words of some of the Saints in their prayers beautifully express what I want to say. If you've ever prayed a Psalm and found great comfort in it, then maybe you have experienced something of this. Not only that, the prayers are so rich and expansive that I have learned from them and been shaped by them, and had my attitude of prayer enriched and deepened by them.

No, they should never be prayed by rote. (Mechanically, without real involvement.)

This is a sort of side point, but I was interested to learn that while there are certain prayers that are always prayed every Liturgy, so a priest recites the same things every time he does the service - the Church actually forbids him from reciting them from memory. Even though he surely could - I've memorized them myself from hearing him pray them. But he must always read them, because the Church doesn't want to risk them being a simple recitation. That is part of his reminder.

Anyway - it is certainly not required that anyone pray them. They are simply tools that are there for us to use. But to be honest, at times I find my prayer much more focused and deeper when I'm not distracted, casting about in my mind for how to say what I want. But I pray both formal prayers and extemporaneous prayers every day. They each serve their own purpose. But the formal prayers are very much my own, real prayer, even though someone else gives me their way of expressing.

I hope that makes some sense.

I pray you have a good night as well.

Good morning. Yes, it makes sense. We are in agreement. If a heart does both types of prayer, then they are dialoging with the Lord. I guess someone could be doing both as well and not being personal with the Father as well.
In distress their are times my mind can only cry out to the Lord through praying the Father's Prayer or Psalms. Thank you for taking the time to explain. Be Greatly Blessed as you Bless others.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Good morning. Yes, it makes sense. We are in agreement. If a heart does both types of prayer, then they are dialoging with the Lord. I guess someone could be doing both as well and not being personal with the Father as well.
In distress their are times my mind can only cry out to the Lord through praying the Father's Prayer or Psalms. Thank you for taking the time to explain. Be Greatly Blessed as you Bless others.

Thank you and God bless you as well.

 

[Meowzltov]

Good evening sister, I guess on this matter I will have to agree to dis-agree until further proof of some kind. Jesus of course was not an ordinary Rabbi and it's recorded He did many things that other Rabbi's were offended by, thus they wanted Him crucified.
Un-less it is recorded that He did Standing Prayer in the New Testament then it is only an assumption. However, it may be possible He did Standing prayer as not to openly offend and thereby be able to reveal Himself to them. For I know He is merciful.
If someone's heart and Spirit is in rote prayer, I understand this.
Not being raised religious, this is very strange to me. This among many others topics are not worth dividing up the body of Christ. We are called to love one another. Don't you agree?

Yes, we are definitely called to love one another. Augustine once said: "in essentials, unity; in doubtful matters, liberty; in all things, charity." I have absolutely no problem with agreeing to disagree agreeably. Also, please know that none of my comments are meant personally. I genuinely enjoy these kinds of discussions as learning experiences.

Using recited prayers (liturgy) is simply a different culture. I'm not at all surprised that it seems very strange to you. Don't worry about it. It's not like it's obligatory.

For me, I think that if Christ had refused to participate in synagogue liturgy, the Pharisees would have derided him for it. The absence of this in the gospels is a de facto admission that he did participate. However, you certainly have a right to your own interpretations.

God bless.

 

[BeStill&Know]

Yes, we are definitely called to love one another. Augustine once said: "in essentials, unity; in doubtful matters, liberty; in all things, charity." I have absolutely no problem with agreeing to disagree agreeably. Also, please know that none of my comments are meant personally. I genuinely enjoy these kinds of discussions as learning experiences.

Using recited prayers (liturgy) is simply a different culture. I'm not at all surprised that it seems very strange to you. Don't worry about it. It's not like it's obligatory.

For me, I think that if Christ had refused to participate in synagogue liturgy, the Pharisees would have derided him for it. The absence of this in the gospels is a de facto admission that he did participate. However, you certainly have a right to your own interpretations.

God bless.

Good evening, I just noticed your reply, it seems I am not receiving all the email replies, to the threads or forums. Be Blessed