Praying, repetitiveness, concentration

[Linet Kihonge]

I come in peace!
What do you want to say???

 

[~Anastasia~]

Don't overlook the biblical stress on the need to "keep alert" long enough to "pray in the Spirit (Ephesians 6:18)," that is, in engaging in prolonged prayer until the well of verbiage seems to run dry and the Holy Spirit begins to direct the spontaneous flow of thought. For me, such prayer vigils take about 30 minutes for the burden of perseverance to lift in favor or truly refreshing directed prayer.

I'm in an intercessory prayer group to meet the needs of sick or troubled people and we see marvelous answers to prayer. I know of no one who specializes in memorized prayers in such prayer groups. But there may be many of whom I'm unaware. Do you know many people in your tradition in such prayer groups? My question is another way of getting at the question of how repetitive praying negatively affects regular passionate spontaneous praying. The Book of Acts recounts such prayer groups and, in my experience, the unity and harmony of group prayer are generally more powerful than individual prayer.

You've raised some interesting points.

I am familiar with what you might be calling "in the Spirit" prayer. Sometimes prayers can flow when one doesn't even know what one was about to say, and intercessions are for things one did not even know was a need. There can be at least two explanations for this - the Holy Spirit can revel such things and pray through a person, or (and you may not wish to hear this) but demons CAN reveal things. Just because knowledge comes, even if it is true, does not mean it is of God. One must always be cautious, and remain in humility above all, for one's own protection. But it has not been my experience that this is related with "time spent". Sometimes I have known it to take a bit of time, and sometimes it can be entered into almost immediately. I'm not denying your experience, only saying that there is no reason it must be the rule for everyone. (And I realize you did not claim that it must be.)

There can be a danger in prayer - period - that one becomes inattentive and insincere. And the risk is greater with formal prayers, because we know it is possible to read or recite with part of the mind while the rest wanders. It is also possible to become "lost in one's thoughts" while praying extemporaneous prayers, but the risk is somewhat less. The answer is not to excise formal prayers, but to practice attention. In the early days of learning to pray, this is one purpose of the prayer rule. To teach one to pray attentively during formal prayers and to instill the discipline of regular prayer. Although the risk is greater for inattention during formal prayers, as a result, the reward is greater as well. When one has learned to focus one's attention and enter deeply into prayers using prayers that one knows by heart, then one is much more able to focus - period.

By the way - I would imagine that even extemporaneous prayers by an intercessory group include repeated phrases. Probably in fact there is a smaller range of expression. But I don't say that to insult such prayers. I am sure we all pray our own extemporaneous prayers partly in this way. How many things can we ask God to do for someone? Protect them, comfort them, heal them in body and spirit, provide for them, have mercy on them, enlighten them, guide them, and on and on. But before very long, we've mentioned all the phrases. And I'm sure we apply various ones of them, as needed, in some form, to the many people we pray for. There's nothing wrong with that, imo. But I think maybe in some cases, you may be drawing a distinction that isn't really there.

Do we have prayer groups of that sort? Well, yes and no. I would say that most people in our Tradition typically pray the many intercessory prayers that are a part of our services corporately. And they pray intercessory prayers for their own convictions in their individual prayers, and as part of family prayers. There ARE certainly gatherings and vigils and those that gather together to pray, even very regularly, but I think you see this more among monastics, who have devoted their lives to praying, usually for the entire world. Individuals who are seeking prayer will more often seek out a particular person to pray for them, as well as asking broadly for many to pray. There are indeed miracles and amazing answers to prayer, but it happens more often through the prayers of an individual.

You said that your intent is to discuss how repetitive prayer negatively affects regular passionate spontaneous prayer? That depends. It is possible, if one simply takes the standard prayer rule, recites it woodenly, doesn't attend, and goes away as if they've checked off some sort of box that they "did their prayers". While this CAN help teach one discipline, it does little else, and there is a danger of killing true prayer altogether. But this is handling it wrongly. Anything can be misused or misunderstood. The same can be said of only praying extemporaneous prayers. One could say "I only pray when I feel like it, so that I know it's genuine" ... and then slowly let the "feelings" die away without realizing it, and never pray at all. Again, that would be handling it wrongly.

This is one reason why we value the rich treasury of wisdom shared by so very many holy people through the ages who devoted their entire lives to prayer. We have the lessons they offer us, if we will receive them. We have the opportunity to have a spiritual advisor, who will oversee our progress and make course corrections as necessary, and guide us on the path of deepening spirituality.

I have been praying since early childhood, even before I knew what prayer was. I often prayed for hours even as a child. And as an adult, there were times I spent a good many hours a day praying. I have prayed "in the Spirit" for long periods. I have prayed with only the guidance of God, with the understanding of a Baptist-type church, and with the teachings of Pentecostalism. And now for several years with the teaching of Orthodoxy. I see in this a continual deepening, but I will say that decades of prayer, while accomplishing quite a bit for my spiritual formation, were greatly deepened by my experience in Orthodoxy, especially the past year, which was when I began to really understand and apply a few things, and have been under the guidance of my geronda for this period of time. I don't despise my beginnings, but I do think I have a very good framework for understanding the effect of formal prayers, and I have experience of how it can be of immense spiritual benefit, if rightly followed.

Our Tradition teaches a number of different kinds of prayer, if one pursues it. (BTW, I am speaking throughout my post of Orthodoxy - I don't know anything about Catholicism in this regard). But yes, the highest form of prayer is acknowledged to be a prayer beyond words. The goal, if one chooses to pursue it, is to engage in prayer at all times - for the heart itself to "pray without ceasing".


(Sorry if that's a bit scattered, I wrote it out of order, and I hope I answered your points. I hope you understand that I am not disagreeing with you in the sense of making it "your way against mine" ... I'm not. I acknowledge potential pitfalls, but I also wish to point out potential benefit, and say that maybe, some folks make assumptions about formal prayers in not understanding them.)

 

[Meowzltov]

(1) The text (Matt. 6:9) never says Jesus had just finished praying!

If his disciples have started talking to him, he is obviously no longer praying.

 

[Meowzltov]

No, I'm looking at this from Jesus' viewpoint: "Pray then like this," not "pray this prayer."

"Pray like this" can mean the same thing as "pray this prayer." Again, you are inserting 21st Century Protestantism into a 1st Century Jewish text.

 

[~Anastasia~]

One wonders what the disciples even meant by "teach us to pray" if there was nothing to be learned ...

 

[Razare]

Repetitive prayer is bad.

Repetitive meditating on God's word is good.

When we pray, we talk to God like you would be talking to another human. Every step we take which is a deviation from this, is not correct. It is religion but not relationship.

 

[Goatee]

Repetitive prayer is bad.

Repetitive meditating on God's word is good.

When we pray, we talk to God like you would be talking to another human. Every step we take which is a deviation from this, is not correct. It is religion but not relationship.

Depends on a lot of factors i guess.

If you continue to say 'Jesus i love you' throughout the day with meaning and a deep love of Jesus i cannot see that being classed as wrong

 

[Razare]

Depends on a lot of factors i guess.

If you continue to say 'Jesus i love you' throughout the day with meaning and a deep love of Jesus i cannot see that being classed as wrong

It's not always what you say, but how you say it. "The Spirit" works off of spiritual principles of the word spoken. So there are different qualities to words in the spiritual realm.

Just like how I could say, "No thank you," several different ways.

"No thank you" - Honest and polite
"No thank you" - False politeness but inwardly being upset or despising the person
"No thank you" - Angrily

Same words but all 3 are different spiritually.

 

[Goatee]

It's not always what you say, but how you say it. "The Spirit" works off of spiritual principles of the word spoken. So there are different qualities to words in the spiritual realm.

Just like how I could say, "No thank you," several different ways.

"No thank you" - Honest and polite
"No thank you" - False politeness but inwardly being upset or despising the person
"No thank you" - Angrily

Same words but all 3 are different spiritually.

How do you know what the spirit wants? Is that guess work?

We are all unique. God can see this. 'Maybe' prayer is received in different ways by God?

Take the Rosary. Non-Catholics see it as repetitive words. We Catholics see it as delving deep into the life of Jesus through the intercession of Our Blessed Mother Mary. A prayer of deep thought and love of Christ. Living through Our Lords Mysteries of his earthly life.

 

[Hallstone]

Do you find prayer repetitive? Do you loose concentration when praying?

Sometimes i rush my prayers without a lot of thought. This is wrong i know. I do try to concentrate but do find it hard.

For those of us who recite the Rosary (Please, no Catholic Bashing on this) i also get lost in the day etc when praying the Rosary.

I know this is all normal but i really do wish i could push aside thoughts of the day, of life and just concentrate on God alone!

Is this the same for you or not. If not, help!

The Lord Jesus Christ is our Savior, and our Father because He created us and loves us, but first and foremost He is the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, when you appear before the king, which is what you are doing when you pray, it is good to remember that you are presenting yourself before the King, a person would not present himself before a king and recite the same thing over and over, you first acknowledge who the king is and how great He is and then with thanksgiving and humility you make your request known to Him. This is what Jesus was communicating to us when he gave the pattern of the Lords prayer. Also is good to remember King Solomon's words in Ecc 5:1-3 , chanting something over and over while one was presenting himself before the King would be foolish and offensive.

 

[Optimax]

Three types of prayer. There are more.

1. The prayer of faith (upon which all prayer is based).
2. The prayer of agreement.
3. United prayer.

 

[Goatee]

The Lord Jesus Christ is our Savior, and our Father because He created us and loves us, but first and foremost He is the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, when you appear before the king, which is what you are doing when you pray, it is good to remember that you are presenting yourself before the King, a person would not present himself before a king and recite the same thing over and over, you first acknowledge who the king is and how great He is and then with thanksgiving and humility you make your request known to Him. This is what Jesus was communicating to us when he gave the pattern of the Lords prayer. Also is good to remember King Solomon's words in Ecc 5:1-3 , chanting something over and over while one was presenting himself before the King would be foolish and offensive.

The 'Jesus Prayer' is a lovely prayer which is repeated and repeated. It is not a prayer without meaning or substance! Said properly it is a wonderful prayer of love to Our Saviour Jesus Christ.

To say anything in a sentence again and again without meaning and thought is worthless to God

 

[Hallstone]

The 'Jesus Prayer' is a lovely prayer which is repeated and repeated. It is not a prayer without meaning or substance! Said properly it is a wonderful prayer of love to Our Saviour Jesus Christ.

To say anything in a sentence again and again without meaning and thought is worthless to God

I suppose what we all say to God is a matter of personal preference, but just as a note of experience I can offer, I used to attend protestant church services in a particular denomination, and they loved to sing songs that repeat the same words over and over until it created an emotional spiritual atmosphere which I personally found contrived and shallow, almost like they were trying to conjure the spirit of Christ, which I found extremely distasteful, and I would try to encourage people to be humble and patient, and not try to cajole god, or try to conjure an atmosphere of simple human emotional high, and call it spiritual. He is the Great King we should conduct ourselves accordingly when in His presence. I suppose its a matter of if you have a true concern that you are trying to present, or if one is just trying to conjure a spiritual feeling.

 

[Goatee]

I suppose what we all say to God is a matter of personal preference, but just as a note of experience I can offer, I used to attend protestant church services in a particular denomination, and they loved to sing songs that repeat the same words over and over until it created an emotional spiritual atmosphere which I personally found contrived and shallow, almost like they were trying to conjure the spirit of Christ, which I found extremely distasteful, and I would try to encourage people to be humble and patient, and not try to cajole god, or try to conjure an atmosphere of simple human emotional high, and call it spiritual. He is the Great King we should conduct ourselves accordingly when in His presence. I suppose its a matter of if you have a true concern that you are trying to present, or if one is just trying to conjure a spiritual feeling.

Nice post

 

[Hallstone]

Nice post

Thank you

 

[Goatee]

Thank you

I liked your post. Very good indeed. Very meaningful. Thank you for those words

 

[Razare]

How do you know what the spirit wants? Is that guess work?

- The holy spirit always agrees with God's word properly understood and lived (it also means it disagrees with bad understanding of God's word)
- The Holy Spirit dwells in us Christians and is supposed to infill us and cover us as well as Christians, for me at least, I can "feel" God. Now it is bad to go by just feelings, but for example, if a person meditates on 1 Corinthians 13, you will feel the Holy Spirit influencing your thoughts and attitudes... that presence which exerts itself to free us from darkness is the Holy Spirit. You can learn to recognize him.
- The Holy Spirit dwells in our hearts, it is the core of us and we are his temple.

We are all unique. God can see this. 'Maybe' prayer is received in different ways by God?

There is only one way to pray to God correctly:

God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth. - John 4:24

Now worship is different than prayer, but still, we are required to approach God on these two levels. A lot of prayers that never get answered, are prayers made from our minds and not our hearts. Also, prayers made with false things are not the truth, and have difficulty getting answered.

So if a prayer becomes a vain repetition, God sees that prayer in your heart where it is a vain repetition... what the prayer means to God is then nothing because God looks at the heart, not how you move your lips a certain way.

When you pray, don't babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again. - Matthew 6:7

Take the Rosary. Non-Catholics see it as repetitive words. We Catholics see it as delving deep into the life of Jesus through the intercession of Our Blessed Mother Mary. A prayer of deep thought and love of Christ. Living through Our Lords Mysteries of his earthly life.

Good looks at the heart, though. I personally don't judge an entire segment of faith when I am specifically told I cannot fully judge the heart, only God can do this.

That said, in the heart there can dwell both deceit, truth, and ignorance.

We can truthfully pray ignorance from the heart, and truthfully pray deceit from the heart, these are key things to keep in mind as well. If I believe a lie, and pray it from the heart, I am truthfully praying a lie.

All this matters to God because God is truth. God does not just wing-it where "anything goes" because we feel like it should be okay. God doesn't work on that level.

 

[Radrook]

I had one Christian lady tell me that she spoke to Jesus in prayer in a very forceful reprimanding way lest he forget to pay her any attention,.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I had one Christian lady tell me that she spoke to Jesus in prayer in a very forceful reprimanding way lest he forget to pay her any attention,.

There is no "dislike" button ....

May the Lord forgive her ignorance.

 

[Ulfric]

During long or repetitive prayers it's only natural for your mind to wander and for you to end up reciting prayers that you know by heart like a mindless zombie. We're only human, after all. I've found that praying slowly and focusing intensely on each and every word of the prayer and what it means helps a lot.

For example:

- Lord Jesus Christ
- Son of God
- Have mercy on me
- A sinner.

Breaking it down keeps me focused.

A super fast, slurred Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have mercy on me a sinner, repeated quickly over and over again has no meaning and the mind wanders off. Make it personal.