Praying and prayer of Jabez Part 2

[Andrew]

I just wanted to pick up from this:

There is only one prayer that God always answers with a "yes," and that is the sincere request for salvation.
ALL other prayers (including Jabez's) have the possibility of being answered with things like "no" and "wait."

1. We should pray according to God's will, which He reveals for us in the Bible -- we dont usu need our ceilings to split open and have an angel come thundering down to tell us what is God's will. Read the Good Book, its all there.

2. Once 1. is in place, God expects us to believe we receive whenever we ask Him for something. At the very time we pray, we are exhorted to believe we have already gotten it from heaven. That's how God has told us how to pray. The manifestation into the natural then, may be immediate or future, but it will come to pass -- if we hold on and do not doubt.

3. The believer can only carry out 2. successfully if he has had 1. settled in his heart. eg you can never pray for healing and expect and receive healing if his will (1.) is not settled in your heart as a powerful spirit revelation. ie you do not really believe in yourheart of hearts that God wants you healed and that he has told you so in his Word.

Finally becos of 2, there is no such thing as God answering with a "no", or praying uncertain prayers ie not knowing whether God will answer or not. That is simply not how God wants us to pray. So, if that's how one prays, then he might as well forget it becos he is not praying scripturally according to God's principles.

Many Christians have prayed the "wrong" way. When they dont get their prayers answered, they 'push the blame' back to God and say he said "NO!"

The logic here is simple: How can God say no when he has told us to believe yes? The two are contradictory as shown by these witnesses:

Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

John 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Do these verses sound like it's teaching us to pray 50-50 "if" prayers? Or is it definite?

So, is it wrong to pray the payer of Jabez and expect results?

If you are trying to copy someone else's experience and use it as a formula/experiment (vain repetition), then yes, as with any other prayer.

But if God has spoken to your heart regarding your situation by showing you Jabez's prayer, then do what he tells you to do, and expect results!

 

[DaveKerwin]

For some reason, that attitude seems false to me, almost like "God you better answer this one!" I am not one to demand things from God. I do pray with faith that God will answer me. But his answer is not always what I desire. That is the difference. God can and does answer with a no.

If I pray with faith for one billion dollars, it is quite unlikely that I will get it. Because God is not the magic genie in the sky with a jabez lamp that we rub.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
For some reason, that attitude seems false to me, almost like "God you better answer this one!" I am not one to demand things from God. I do pray with faith that God will answer me. But his answer is not always what I desire. That is the difference. God can and does answer with a no.

If I pray with faith for one billion dollars, it is quite unlikely that I will get it. Because God is not the magic genie in the sky with a jabez lamp that we rub.

Dave,

You are correct in your statement that God is not the magic genie in the sky with a jabez lamp that we rub.  And, that is not at all what I see being said.

For me the bottom line scripture given is John 15:7 "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."

Jesus said, "if" you abide in Me "and" My words abide in you.

When we abide in Him and His words abide in us our wants and desires become like His.  At that point we would not be asking amiss, therefore, whatever we ask for would be done.

God knows each of our hearts.  If we ask for a million dollars and it is not asking in a pure heart that come from abiding in Him, we would most likely get squat. 

However, if God has directed us to do something that requires a million dollars to do it . . . we can pray in faith that He will provide so that the call He placed on our life will be accomplished.

So it all boils down to the place our heart is in.  I can have great faith for something.  But if my heart is not abiding in Him and His words in me . . .

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Andrew

Finally becos of 2, there is no such thing as God answering with a "no", or praying uncertain prayers ie not knowing whether God will answer or not. That is simply not how God wants us to pray. So, if that's how one prays, then he might as well forget it becos he is not praying scripturally according to God's principles. Many Christians have prayed the "wrong" way. When they dont get their prayers answered, they 'push the blame' back to God and say he said "NO!"

The logic here is simple: How can God say no when he has told us to believe yes? The two are contradictory as shown by these witnesses:

What about Paul?  He wanted to go one way and God say No you need to wait then God said Go another.  That was a no answer. Also Paul prayed that God would take away the thorn in his flesh.  God said no.  So how do you reconcile the witness of Paul's life in scripture with your above statements?

 

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by Blackhawk
What about Paul?  He wanted to go one way and God say No you need to wait then God said Go another.  That was a no answer. Also Paul prayed that God would take away the thorn in his flesh.  God said no.  So how do you reconcile the witness of Paul's life in scripture with your above statements?

First off asking for a million dollars is covered in "you have not because you ask not, you ask and don't receive because you spend it on your selfish desires" (or something like that )

The bible warns about richs, its good, but only for those that are mature enough to handle them. God would never give someone that kind of prayer if it lead anywhere else but exortation. On the other hand, there are some great men of God who where rich, and used there riches to bless others, which is the way its meant to be.

Now for this quote.

The bible says in all your ways acknowledge Him and he shall direct your paths. Paul was wondering where to go, and the Lord answered him. But if you noticed Paul didn't ask God, nor did anyone else ever, ever ask God if they wanted a healing done in them or anyone else.

 

[SUNSTONE]

Jesus said, "if you being(acting) evil know how to give good gifts, how much more so does your heavenly Father?"

Jesus also talked about the prodical son, and used a father figure to show His love for him, and us.

We call one of the trinity, Father God.

Now do you think that there is a single parent out there that wouldn't cure a cold, or any desease or injury out there if it was in there power to do it?

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by SUNSTONE

The bible says in all your ways acknowledge Him and he shall direct your paths. Paul was wondering where to go, and the Lord answered him. But if you noticed Paul didn't ask God, nor did anyone else ever, ever ask God if they wanted a healing done in them or anyone else.

First Andrew was saying that God never said no to our prayers.  At least that is how I read his post.  Clearly God said no here.  Secondly Paul did ask for it to be taken away and God said no. 


2 Cor 12:7-10
7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me-- to keep me from exalting myself!
8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.
9 And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
10 Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.
(NAU)

This is why I think that evangelicals are right whenwe say that God permits some to be weak instead of healing them.  However let me say that we can learn much from our charismatic brothers.  we tend to say (myself included) that God will not heal that person.  Or we do not expect it like Andrew said.  I think that the middle ground between what most evangelicals believe and what our Charismatic brothers believe is the truth. I have a hard time putting that belief into practice a lot though.  I still have the evangelical tendency to not expect a miracle. 

 

[seebs]

I believe it's quite clear that, in practice, you don't always get a "yes" answer to a prayer. (If you do, please pray for the guy I know who killed himself to come back to life now, or perhaps for a cure to cancer *right now*, because a lot of people are suffering.)

 

[SUNSTONE]

Me and Andrew differ on that point of God healing everyone. Andrew said that it is proven that Pauls "thorn" wasn't an illness of any kind, and gave a reference to it, I didn't look it up because I ran out of time.

That is the only time that God said no to an illness ( as far as I know) in the bible.
God told me yes and no to the same prayer for my knee. He healed it to the point that I could walk, run, work, and even lift weights with it, but the knee isn't perfect when it comes to playing sports all the time like I used to.

He said I would be to busy wasteing my time playing them, when He wanted me to go in another direction. So I am healed, but when I begin to sin, His grace begins to run out, forcing me back where I should be.

 

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by seebs
I believe it's quite clear that, in practice, you don't always get a "yes" answer to a prayer. (If you do, please pray for the guy I know who killed himself to come back to life now, or perhaps for a cure to cancer *right now*, because a lot of people are suffering.)

Jesus said let it be done according to "your" faith. Was Jesus able to heal everyone? No.

The bible says "God will not be mocked, you shall reap what you sow".

So you have a choice, either believe the word as a whole and begin to sow it into your life, thinking, words, and actions, or

Don't believe it, or just part of it.

Faith without works is dead.

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by SUNSTONE
Me and Andrew differ on that point of God healing everyone. Andrew said that it is proven that Pauls "thorn" wasn't an illness of any kind, and gave a reference to it, I didn't look it up because I ran out of time.

That is the only time that God said no to an illness ( as far as I know) in the bible. 

Okay. Sorry about your knee.  But even if it is not a physical illness of any kind although I believe it was does not this show that God does say no. I think so. 

 

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by Blackhawk
Okay. Sorry about your knee.  But even if it is not a physical illness of any kind although I believe it was does not this show that God does say no. I think so. 

He only said no when I sinned, and there is a difference.

Now let me ask you, have you ever been healed? Because I have many, many answered prayers in this area. So if you don't then this is what me and Andrew and the others have been saying, that you should start expecting God to fully talk to you and quide you and 99% of the time heal you.

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by SUNSTONE
He only said no when I sinned, and there is a difference.

Well what about Paul?  He sinned of course but I do not see a record of his sin making it so that he did not get a yes answer. 

Now let me ask you, have you ever been healed? Because I have many, many answered prayers in this area. So if you don't then this is what me and Andrew and the others have been saying, that you should start expecting God to fully talk to you and quide you and 99% of the time heal you. [/B]

I do not really have a problem with that as I said earlier. I jsut have a problem when one says God always heals or God always says yes if we do not sin.  That is not supported by the Bible. At least I have not found it supported by it. 

 

[Blindfaith]

You know what I think?  That this is another post to pick up where the first one left off.....

Devisive, and one that will do NOTHING to further the Kingdom of God. 

Let it die people ~ there's some on one side who believe one way, and others on the other side who believe differently.

Get over it and start witnessing to others like we're suppose to do.

 

[Andrew]

Dear Blackhawk/Sunstone,

to answer your question, firstly it is already an established fact that Paul's thorn was not any sickness. The old erroneous teaching, sadly, still circulates in come Christian circles and has put many in bondage. If you want scripture support for this, it is here:

http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/thorn.html

It wld be good if you cld go thru it carefully first.

With that, I never said that every prayer of every Christian has always been answered with a yes.

My point was simply that scripture tells us how to pray in a certain way. This "way" is for us to ask in faith and believe that we receive there in then in the spiritual realm, and to hold on to it until it manifest. The scriptures I gave clearly say that.

Now, many Christians are not getting there prayers answered not becos God wants to tell them no (for that's simply not the principle outlined in pryaer scriptures) but becos they are not praying the way he told them to pray.

Put simply again, Jesus said: "Whatsoever ye desire, when ye pray BELIEVE YE RECEIVE them".

If that's how Jesus told us to pray, then how can we pray for something and then think to ourselves: “Well, maybe God will give it maybe he wont..."

Doesnt this 50-50 attitude contradict what Jesus just said? ie to believe that we receive?

 

[Andrew]

I jsut have a problem when one says God always heals or God always says yes if we do not sin.

I think what we mean is that God's ways and heart is to heal his children who are sick. I mean which parent wants his child sick??

Of cse, some are not getting healed. That's plain obvious enough!

But it is not becos God does not want to heal and has not provided a way thru His Son. IOW the fault lies with man, not God. it could be becos the person
1. Does not even believe in healing
2. Thinks God wants him that way
3. Wants to still continue in the sin that brought him that sickness
etc. etc.

btw sin is really not an issue either. yes sin is bad and it blocks the healing from God. Did not Jesus heal and well as forgive sins? did he even tell the people repent and say sorry first then I'll heal you and forgive you? Or was he so compassionate and willing to heal?

 

[Andrew]

Let it die people ~ there's_some on one side who believe one way, and others_on the other side who believe differently.Get over it and start witnessing to others like we're suppose to do.

Isnt this supp to be a discussion forum? And is this section a strictly 'witnessing' section?
Do u say the same thing to all other threads that have a lively (albeit sometimes heated) discussion going on? or are you just targeting those who preach a loving God who wants to heal his children, becos u yourself are against it?

I wld like to see you tellling the same thing to for eg, the Catholic-Protestant discussions.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by blindfaith
You know what I think?  That this is another post to pick up where the first one left off.....

Devisive, and one that will do NOTHING to further the Kingdom of God. 

Let it die people ~ there's some on one side who believe one way, and others on the other side who believe differently.

Get over it and start witnessing to others like we're suppose to do.

 

 

There are people who are interested in learning this subject.  I would assume that is why they read it.  I know that I personally have PMd people to get further understanding of particular things they may say and I too have had people PM me for more info. 

If those who want understanding of an issue can come to that understanding than that is a furtherance of the Kingdom of God.  

If we are asked sincere questions we should be allowed to answer what we believe.  I don't mind someone dissagreeing with me but it is quite unnessary to hound me over it. 

There are several threads that I stay out of because my opinion differs so much.  I know that if I go in it will only stirr up trouble.  Sometimes I do post an opinion and then I leave.  I don't feel the need to dog a thread just because I dissagree. 

However, some others who dissagree with me are not as kind.  They repeadadely attack, telling of their dissagreement over and over and over.  Our threads are dogged by those who only want to argue.  That is unfair.  Especially when the one doing most of the dogging is an administrator.  

I have no problem with you blindfaith.  You personally have been kind to me and I appreciate that.  So please know that my comments are in no way a reflection of you.  There are other administrators I have a fairly good repoir with as well. 

I'm sorry blindfaith, I respect your opinion, and this is part of my witnessing.  Jesus saves.  Jesus heals!  Jesus meets all our needs!
Quaffer 

 

[Blindfaith]

2-point conversion (edited post & inserted football terminology)

 

[Blindfaith]

Quaffar ~ I just came back in here and your post has expanded like yeast in bread!   I have no problem with you either.

Please indulge me for a moment people/posters.

I just got back from picking up my daughter from preschool, so I had quite a bit of time to think about this very topic/thread, and this is what I came up with.

First, I had no right to snap at anyone.  That's not why I'm here on this Earth, and not why I'm a moderator.  So for that, I humbly ask for forgiveness.   To explain why I feel/felt this thing should die, is because it's one of those topics where nothing will ever get resolved.  You have one side over here, and another side over there.  In the middle, are people who are hurting, suffering, and even dying, and they're being told that they aren't being healed because they don't have "enough faith".  By all means, this is a board for discussion and maybe even a healthy debate, but it's not a place to make those hurting feel guilty or sorrowful.

I pray to God that I'm never in that position of wondering if I'm dying because I don't pray right or enough, or if my faith is lacking therefore God will snuff me out. 

The only thing that I ask, the only thing, is that anyone who posts in these types of threads (and that includes me), is that we first consider who may be reading, how our post will affect them, and remember that we need to be loving and compassionate Christians who should be lifting up those in prayer who need it.  Before we post it.

If anyone decides to post scripture to support their position, all the more power to you!!   But please remember, there are those who come here who may be suffering.  If a person has the courage to say so, before slamming them with scripture to prove your point, maybe stop and ask them if they'd like for you to pray for them.  On the spot, or in the Prayer Forum.

I hope that I made myself clear.  Andrew, as far as not agreeing or believing in what you do, I do believe in Jesus as my Savior.  In that we're in agreement.  I'm not here to argue with you, nor do I have any desire to do so. 

~Peace in Christ