Praying and prayer of Jabez Part 2

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by blindfaith
Quaffar ~ I just came back in here and your post has expanded like yeast in bread!  

Sorry, I have a tendency to do that because I think of more to say and I don't want to waste another box.

Originally posted by blindfaith
I pray to God that I'm never in that position of wondering if I'm dying because I don't pray right or enough, or if my faith is lacking therefore God will snuff me out. 

I understand.  I have been there and it was discouraging . . .but I'm thankful that I kept taking it to God so that my discouragement did not keep me from hearing what I needed to hear.

I desire to see people set free, not only spiritually, but physically.  I know that I personally have never told someone they are sick and God's gonna snuff them because they lack faith or because they don't pray right.  That would be totally out of line.

Originally posted by blindfaith
The only thing that I ask, the only thing, is that anyone who posts in these types of threads (and that includes me), is that we first consider who may be reading, how our post will affect them, and remember that we need to be loving and compassionate Christians who should be lifting up those in prayer who need it.  Before we post it.

That is an execelent idea.

Originally posted by blindfaith
If anyone decides to post scripture to support their position, all the more power to you!!   But please remember, there are those who come here who may be suffering.  If a person has the courage to say so, before slamming them with scripture to prove your point, maybe stop and ask them if they'd like for you to pray for them.  On the spot, or in the Prayer Forum.

I am currently e-mailing back and forth with a person I met on these forums who's dr tells them they are dying.  We have become fairly good friends and pray for each other regularly.  He even is taking some of my suggesitions and experiencing improvement.  I don't slam him with scripture but I explain it the best I know how. And God is faithful. 

From the moment we started talking with each other I knew he was hurting.  He had not yet told me the illness the doctor says he has but I knew he was hurting.  I answered as tactfully as possible, praying for him as I answered.  Others might have taken offense but he did not. And we have a friendship as a result of it.

Sometimes, no matter how nice I say it, people on these forums still take offense.  But I do try. I have sat at the computer rewording and rewording only to have someone severely twist my words every single time.

If I were to let the subject die, in my opinion, I would be letting those who need and want to hear it die.  I don't believe that's what God wants me to do. 

Thanks blindfaith.  Peace to you too.

 

[DaveKerwin]

Read the intro page of the prayer of jabez and pay attention to key words used. You will see why a red flag goes up.

 

[DaveKerwin]

Read the intro page of the prayer of jabez and pay attention to key words used. You will see why a red flag goes up.

The issue is not God's word, it is how Bruce Wilkinson wrote this book about God's word. I believe that his book has many false teachings in it. Which I have explained in another thread. So I suggest reading that intro page, and testing those concepts to the Bible. I have yet to find support for his claims. It is a false teaching.

 

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by Blackhawk
Well what about Paul?  He sinned of course but I do not see a record of his sin making it so that he did not get a yes answer. 



I do not really have a problem with that as I said earlier. I jsut have a problem when one says God always heals or God always says yes if we do not sin.  That is not supported by the Bible. At least I have not found it supported by it. 

Paul said he was given a thorn in the flesh so that he wouldn't exalt himself higher than he should because of the many revelations that God was giving to him.
That means he would have sinned and God knew he wouldn't be able to handle it.

So me and Paul can relate in a way, the way my heart is I would have pushed myself into sports to the point of ignoring God and people at church. Paul would have gotten a fat head and fallen over if he didn't have his thorn.

Andrew
I thought the same thing about the "thorn in the flesh" and how it probably wasn't an illness or any kind but if you read on it describes it as a physical ailment (or something like that).


We have the power to raise people from the dead, but can we raise up everyone?
There is a time to be born and a time to die.

So other than a time to die, the only other time a prayer isn't answered of this kind, is because God can work better throught that weakness. But this in no way excuses you or I or anyone from doing what the bible says to do, which is pray without ceasing, never give up, atleast not untill we hear from God.

 

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by blindfaith
Quaffar ~ I just came back in here and your post has expanded like yeast in bread!   I have no problem with you either.

Please indulge me for a moment people/posters.

I just got back from picking up my daughter from preschool, so I had quite a bit of time to think about this very topic/thread, and this is what I came up with.

First, I had no right to snap at anyone.  That's not why I'm here on this Earth, and not why I'm a moderator.  So for that, I humbly ask for forgiveness.   To explain why I feel/felt this thing should die, is because it's one of those topics where nothing will ever get resolved.  You have one side over here, and another side over there.  In the middle, are people who are hurting, suffering, and even dying, and they're being told that they aren't being healed because they don't have "enough faith".  By all means, this is a board for discussion and maybe even a healthy debate, but it's not a place to make those hurting feel guilty or sorrowful.

I pray to God that I'm never in that position of wondering if I'm dying because I don't pray right or enough, or if my faith is lacking therefore God will snuff me out. 

The only thing that I ask, the only thing, is that anyone who posts in these types of threads (and that includes me), is that we first consider who may be reading, how our post will affect them, and remember that we need to be loving and compassionate Christians who should be lifting up those in prayer who need it.  Before we post it.

If anyone decides to post scripture to support their position, all the more power to you!!   But please remember, there are those who come here who may be suffering.  If a person has the courage to say so, before slamming them with scripture to prove your point, maybe stop and ask them if they'd like for you to pray for them.  On the spot, or in the Prayer Forum.

I hope that I made myself clear.  Andrew, as far as not agreeing or believing in what you do, I do believe in Jesus as my Savior.  In that we're in agreement.  I'm not here to argue with you, nor do I have any desire to do so. 

~Peace in Christ

This is a very important topic in the kingdom of heaven, just because there "might" be some feelings hurt has nothing to do with wether we should talk about it or not.
Telling people about Christ can and has caused strife in people, but is it better to tell the truth and hurt some feelings or to let them feel good and goto hell?

What me and Andrew Quaffer and others are trying to do is not hurt your feelings, but to destroy those negotive beliefs that are floating around.
And to show you that God is an awesome God, and He really wants to help us, but He isn't going to do it for us. He has done his part, its time for us to do ours.

So I feel that "nothing will get resolved" attitude is unGodly, and is a manipulitive way of debateing. If you don't want to change your beliefs or you feel you have justified your beliefs, then thats fine, but don't give pride room by saying things like that. Let other people decide for themselves.

My brother spent 6 months witnessing to me about Jesus, and we said the same things over and over. It seemed like an impass of an arguement, after six months of debateing I finally got convinced what was the truth.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The main problem with the concept that God says "no" is this:
how do you know when to believe that you have receieved?

Look at the literal and better translations of Mark 11:24
 
Gods Word:
That's why I tell you to have faith that you have already received whatever you pray for, and it will be yours.

Literal Translation:
...believe that you have received it...

NASB:
...believe that you have received them...

Weymouth:
...if you believe that you have received it...

Robertson explains it in detail:
"...Believe that ye have received them (pisteuete oti elabete). That is the test of faith, the kind that sees the fulfilment before it happens...."


So faith means you have to believe that you have received. Past tense. How can you do this if you think it is possible that He says no? These words do not say that you merely have to believe in God or that He will give it to you if it is His will. It specifically says you have to believe you receive  when you you pray, and thereafter you have to believe that you have received it. If you have it in your head that He might say no, then you cannot do this. You cannot believe that you have received something when you think He may have said no. You have to know without question and with absolute assurance that it is His will and that He says yes.

This in a nutshell is the problem with the "if it be thy will" and "God sometimes says no" theories. It simply goes against the teachings of Jesus, Paul, and John concerning faith and prayer.

 

[LouisBooth]

"How can you do this if you think it is possible that He says no? "

Because you're in the will of God. I have, in my life, heard a definate No before in reference to a desire of mine which was a very very good and "christian" thing to do. It was a ministry opertunity and he told me no. God doesn't always say yes to riches, healings in the like, even Jesus showed us an example, he always finished with Your will be done (ie your will over what I want to do because you're the one running the show).

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"How can you do this if you think it is possible that He says no? " 

God doesn't always say yes to riches, healings in the like, even Jesus showed us an example, he always finished with Your will be done (ie your will over what I want to do because you're the one running the show).

Thank you Louis, but you really did not respond to the problem... you only reinforced it. How do you ever know when to believe when you ask? If you go into the prayer thinking He could say no... then you can never pray and believe that you received what you asked for. You never believe you receive, and so the "if" in what Jesus said comes into play. The only "if" is the "if you believe". If you believe then you received... if you don't you didn't.

 

[TheBear]

I would have to agree with Blackhawk, Louisbooth and others who know that God says "No" on many occasions. I'll take it to the next level by making the observation of all the Christians who have died, even after much prayer by many people. Heck, we'd have people walking around, thousands of years old, if God always said "Yes".

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Originally posted by TheBear
I would have to agree with Blackhawk, Louisbooth and others who know that God says "No" on many occasions. I'll take it to the next level by making the observation of all the Christians who have died, even after much prayer by many people. Heck, we'd have people walking around, thousands of years old, if God always said "Yes".

Hi guys...

Just one last post to this thread. I don't know what this "prayer of jabez" thing is, and I don't want it to look like I am defending it by posting to the pro side of this thread.

Just to say that I do not think you are seeing what I am saying. I am saying that God always says yes to prayers offered with faith. If it were possible to believe that you could live a thousand years, then you would. Jesus said:"Nothing shall be impossible for those that believe", and "whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive", and " all things are possible to those that believe...". The determining factor in these sayings is never that God would say no. It is always "do you believe".

Can you believe to be a thousand?
Can you believe for a billion $.
Can you believe yourself onto the moon?
These things involve quantity of faith. These things are beyond the ability of the human spirit to believe. It is not that God says no... it is just that no-one can believe for these things.

What about these:
Can you believe for something sinful?
Can you believe for something evil?

Given the nature of the new man that God has given us, is it possible to believe for an evil thing?

Look at this:

Galatians 5:6 LITV For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any strength, but faith working through love.

Faith that is energized by love avails. Since love does not sin, sinful prayers are not energized by them. They fall flat because there is no belief, or faith, in them. There cannot be.

Jesus said: "When you pray, believe..."
Technically, if you do not believe when you pray, then you have not really prayed. You are just speaking words into the air. 1 John 5 implies that if you do not have assurance that it is His will for you to have what you ask for, then He does not even hear your prayer....

1 John 5:14-15 KJV And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
(15) And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

In each of these cases, He is not saying "no".  You are either not believing, or you do not have the confidence that it is His will that you have what you are asking for, or your spirit cannot believe for what you are asking. It only looks like "no" because you did not get what you wanted.
He never actually said "no".

 

[TheBear]

I can't read your font. Can you make it larger please?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Originally posted by TheBear
I can't read your font. Can you make it larger please?

Sorry TB, I have had others say they can't read my posts because they are too small.... I wish I could see them the way they actually look to others. But since everyone has different monitors, settings on their browsers, and settings on CF, everyone looks different. Any suggestions would be helpful.

THANKS

 

[TheBear]

You're welcome!

 

[seebs]

I love Mozilla; it has a setting for "smallest font size", which cannot be overridden by a page.

 

[Andrew]

No problem blindfaith, all is forgiven. I just hope you dont close threads everytime it gets interesting, albeit a bit exciting. I mean, this is a forum, and a section where we discuss issues that are controversial. I see where you are coming from if this was one of the prayer, testimonies, encouragement, new Christian-type sections.

I have a close friend who suffers from polio and chronic fatigue syndrome. He uses a walker to move around and has been like that since young.

I have for a year (on a off) been talking to him abt healing. In the course of the discussions, which sometimes got a little tense, i found out that he believes God has a purpose for him to suffer that way.

Just yesterday, he was at my home again for a time of fellowship, we talked again abt praying right (in faith), healing, nature of God (good and loving), Paul' thorn not being a sickness etc. I had to 'knock down' his erroneous beliefs abt God -- becos it was blocking his ability to receive healing or even to pray scripturally.

I did it in love, and he enjoys a lively discussion (he reads a lot too). I also assured him that there's no sin/condemnation in being sick, no pressure to be healed, but told him firmly that it is however a sin to say that God made him tht way and wants him to stay that way. You cant believe like that and yet pray in faith for healing. you are just being double-minded.

and the reason why we talked abt healing is becos he told me he was praying for healing with regard to CFS. you see a contradiction here already. On the one hand you say God wants you that way (and even say it with a little pride), yet on the otherhand, you are asking Him to heal you. where's the logic??

anyway, at the end of it, he finally began to see things differently, and I hope he will think more abt it. so yes, some headway had been made. sometimes, the truth hurts, but its mainly becos of our pride.

we all want to see the sick healed and happy. you can either pat their sickness and sympathise with them, and cry with them, and leave them be, not wanting to offend them,

or you can shake them our of erroneous beliefs abt God and healing (if there are any). I choose to do the latter.

 

[Andrew]

Andrew
I thought the same thing about the "thorn in the flesh" and how it probably wasn't an illness or any kind but if you read on it describes it as a physical ailment (or something like that).

how is illness not the same as physical ailment? some say Paul had migraine, some say, bad eyesight, some say rib pains -- all purely wild speculations which are really amusing. I'll leave it at what the Bible clearly says it is.

God says "No" on many occasions. I'll take it to the next level by making the observation of all the Christians who have died, even after much prayer by many people. Heck, we'd have people walking around, thousands of years old, if God always said "Yes".

Dont you think then that you are going by experiences, instead of what the Word says? If I use your reasoning, then I can also say that God says no to salvation prayers becos many still dont get saved. I cant also say that God will not supply all our needs becos there are Christians who have starved to death. Or God does not mind divorce since prayers to save the marriage were 'not' answered. etc

again, we are shfting the 'blame' to God.

 

[DaveKerwin]

Will somebody address my last comment please.

 

[seebs]

Okay, Dave, addressing your last comment:

You're right.

Happy?

Seriously, I think that's the reason there's a debate; there's a gap between "this prayer is in the Bible, and God answers prayers" and "NOW! NEW, IMPROVED, RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD, IN A BOX, PREPACKAGED FOR EASY USE!!!".

I think the book is *way* too close to the second. Too much promising "results", too little focus on growth in a relationship with a God who is not fond of vain repititions. If I want someone to promise me "results", I'll read my daily dose of spam. If I want to grow with God, I think I'll go for the daily bread.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
Read the intro page of the prayer of jabez and pay attention to key words used. You will see why a red flag goes up.

The issue is not God's word, it is how Bruce Wilkinson wrote this book about God's word. I believe that his book has many false teachings in it. Which I have explained in another thread. So I suggest reading that intro page, and testing those concepts to the Bible. I have yet to find support for his claims. It is a false teaching.

Sorry Dave,

I have not read the book so I'm unable to address it.

However, just like the variety of sermons that are in each church on Sunday morning meets the needs and sometimes wants of the hearers, so do all the books out on the market.

I don't know Bruce Wilkinson but in thinking on the best, I would consider that he wrote something that he learned for his situation and wanted to share what he learned with others struggling with the same thing.

No matter what it is, people somewhere, at sometime will abuse the information.  That does not mean that the writer of the book should be tarred and feathered along with all the other brethren we don't agree with.

Take what you can receive and put the rest to the side. 

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by seebs
Okay, Dave, addressing your last comment:

You're right.

Happy?

Seriously, I think that's the reason there's a debate; there's a gap between "this prayer is in the Bible, and God answers prayers" and "NOW! NEW, IMPROVED, RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD, IN A BOX, PREPACKAGED FOR EASY USE!!!".

I think the book is *way* too close to the second. Too much promising "results", too little focus on growth in a relationship with a God who is not fond of vain repititions. If I want someone to promise me "results", I'll read my daily dose of spam. If I want to grow with God, I think I'll go for the daily bread.

Thanks seebs, you can read my mind j/k

If people support the book, I want them to more closely examine what they so easily believe. That's all. Everyone go get your W.W.J.D. bracelet.