Prayers to Theotokos...Some QuestionsI've

[Constantine the Sinner]

So Mary shouldn't be seen as co-redemrix ?
her cooperation and yes to God was/is vital for the salvation of mankind.
It's from her and her alone Christ has his human DNA or nature if you like.

She suffered so much as part of Christ's crucifixion.
Her womb nurtured him for nine months.

How is she not a co-redemrix ?

Our Redemption is in Christ's death, Resurrection, and in our partaking of the latter through Holy Communion. The Theotokos certainly was needed for those, but she isn't the person they were accomplished in, which is what the title "Redeemer" refers to.

 

[truefiction1]

For anyone else interested, I did a quick search and found this PDF (http://www.stnicholasdc.org/files/Orthodoxy/Unseen-Warfare.pdf).

Do you recommend the entire book? Looking forward to reading it.

I recommend the entire book. It makes for good daily reading during Great Lent. Thanks for the link. For our present discussion, I was referring to the first of the four things needed by one undertaking the struggle against sin (repentance). This first thing is spoken of extensively in the 2nd chapter. The language of our prayers, such as to the Theotokos, is a tool given us by the saints who fought the good fight before us to help us in our efforts to acquire the disposition spoken of in this chapter. But, it is only the Holy Spirit Who gives us this disposition which we cannot acquire by effort. It is a gift. The prayers we pray in order to receive the gift merely help to condition our hearts to receive it.

 

[seekingsolace]

-

 

[Anhelyna]

You know - I'm a very simple soul who learns better by doing than by reading - always have and even more so now .

I was talking about this topic with a priest friend today and commented to him that I keep coming back to Icons of the Theotokos where nearly all of them show the Theotokos directing our attention to her Son.

Also - remember the Wedding Feast - what did she say then ? Do as .....

Father smiled in agreement with my thoughts - and asked if I had had problems accepting her place . I never had any. He's convinced that those who do have problems accepting , are those who have come from the very evangelical Protestant traditions - and I can't help feeling that there ~may~ be something in that comment.

 

[ripple the car]

You know - I'm a very simple soul who learns better by doing than by reading - always have and even more so now .

I was talking about this topic with a priest friend today and commented to him that I keep coming back to Icons of the Theotokos where nearly all of them show the Theotokos directing our attention to her Son.

Also - remember the Wedding Feast - what did she say then ? Do as .....

Father smiled in agreement with my thoughts - and asked if I had had problems accepting her place . I never had any. He's convinced that those who do have problems accepting , are those who have come from the very evangelical Protestant traditions - and I can't help feeling that there ~may~ be something in that comment.

I think this is deeply true. Protestantism being based on Scripture Alone and sometimes simply doing the opposite of Catholicism, can give one massive Marian blocks. One can come to the table assuming / fearing that Marian devotion is satanic. Which can make it incredibly tough to pray to, honor, venerate, or seek help from Mary. Maybe it's a process for every Protestant.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Indeed. I have been DEEPLY taught against this nearly my entire life. I don't want to offend anyone, but it should be no secret that many evangelicals are taught that Catholics (because that's really the sole target) are not Christian and are condemned, largely because of the idolatry of Mary. Lord have mercy.

It's quite difficult to shut down decades of such voices sufficiently to intellectually study one's way through the issue, and even MORE difficult (in my case at least) to quiet the fears in the heart enough to really embrace what one learns and begins to understand.

I find it ironic that venerating the Saints and asking their intercession was a much easier hurdle to overcome, and when I understood just what we are doing, made perfect and easy sense to my heart, while giving even that same measure to the Theotokos (not anything extra compared to the Saints, in spite of there being solid reasons to hold her as foremost among them) was still incredibly difficult, taking much more time. That would seem to point to a deeply-rooted prejudice. And yes, it is difficult to overcome, and I am one who has already managed in my life to discard hard-won things very dear to me, both in an intellectual and a material sense, when they turned out to be a hindrance. You'd think practice would make that easier. But it was and is still hard. Very deep-rooted prejudices.

 

[All4Christ]

Indeed. I have been DEEPLY taught against this nearly my entire life. I don't want to offend anyone, but it should be no secret that many evangelicals are taught that Catholics (because that's really the sole target) are not Christian and are condemned, largely because of the idolatry of Mary. Lord have mercy.

It's quite difficult to shut down decades of such voices sufficiently to intellectually study one's way through the issue, and even MORE difficult (in my case at least) to quiet the fears in the heart enough to really embrace what one learns and begins to understand.

I find it ironic that venerating the Saints and asking their intercession was a much easier hurdle to overcome, and when I understood just what we are doing, made perfect and easy sense to my heart, while giving even that same measure to the Theotokos (not anything extra compared to the Saints, in spite of there being solid reasons to hold her as foremost among them) was still incredibly difficult, taking much more time. That would seem to point to a deeply-rooted prejudice. And yes, it is difficult to overcome, and I am one who has already managed in my life to discard hard-won things very dear to me, both in an intellectual and a material sense, when they turned out to be a hindrance. You'd think practice would make that easier. But it was and is still hard. Very deep-rooted prejudices.

Agreed 100%. I've had (and still do to a point) the same experience.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Agreed 100%. I've had (and still do to a point) the same experience.

I think I'm "getting there" ... but then again, I'm not actually in a position to say. It wouldn't be the first time I noted some degree of change and thought it was further progress than it actually was, only to realize later how little I understood at the time.

And even in my own estimation, it seems just early steps.

The funny thing is that even though I've studied on it, it doesn't seem to be through study that anything really changes. It is a slow, dawning recognition in my heart. It was like that with the Saints too. I studied and studied, and while I could outline thoughts and reasons, in truth, it all meant very little to me. One day it was like a light switch flipped on in my heart, and I suddenly just understood a number of things all at once, and it was all suddenly so simple and so clear.

I hope I will have further understandings like that. They seem to be the only ones that matter.

 

[ripple the car]

Indeed. I have been DEEPLY taught against this nearly my entire life. I don't want to offend anyone, but it should be no secret that many evangelicals are taught that Catholics (because that's really the sole target) are not Christian and are condemned, largely because of the idolatry of Mary. Lord have mercy.

It's quite difficult to shut down decades of such voices sufficiently to intellectually study one's way through the issue, and even MORE difficult (in my case at least) to quiet the fears in the heart enough to really embrace what one learns and begins to understand.

I find it ironic that venerating the Saints and asking their intercession was a much easier hurdle to overcome, and when I understood just what we are doing, made perfect and easy sense to my heart, while giving even that same measure to the Theotokos (not anything extra compared to the Saints, in spite of there being solid reasons to hold her as foremost among them) was still incredibly difficult, taking much more time. That would seem to point to a deeply-rooted prejudice. And yes, it is difficult to overcome, and I am one who has already managed in my life to discard hard-won things very dear to me, both in an intellectual and a material sense, when they turned out to be a hindrance. You'd think practice would make that easier. But it was and is still hard. Very deep-rooted prejudices.

Anastasia, the more I study ancient Orthodoxy, the more I get the feeling that Orthodox theology is prayer based, not logic based. If one can find first, second, or third century examples of the kinds of devotions most of us might shrink from as Protestants / ex-Protestants, perhaps that can help. As a kind of counter-evidence to the notions we've presumed and accepted about how to understand what is truly Christian.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Anastasia, the more I study ancient Orthodoxy, the more I get the feeling that Orthodox theology is prayer based, not logic based. If one can find first, second, or third century examples of the kinds of devotions most of us might shrink from as Protestants / ex-Protestants, perhaps that can help. As a kind of counter-evidence to the notions we've presumed and accepted about how to understand what is truly Christian.

Indeed ... The life of Orthodoxy is based in prayer and practice. Study gives some structure to what we take in through prayer and the Liturgy and such, but is not really the basis.

I came to Orthodoxy through theology, at first, and indeed it was my full intent at first to study and take what was useful to me and be on my way. But I found something much deeper in the Liturgy, and eventually in the prayers.

You know, I don't think the prayers are really designed primarily as supplication or any such thing. Orthodox prayer changes US as we pray, more than anything else. I think that is one of its greatest benefits (at least at the so-early stages I know so far).

But as you mention, I think finding early devotions could be useful. I looked at one point before, for the sake of studying my way into understanding. I think - I only found one? I can't remember how early? I wish I'd taken notes, but I didn't figure my searching was really worth preserving, lol. I guess I can start looking again. It would probably be more helpful now than it was then, if such can be found.

Thank you for the suggestion.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Our Redemption is in Christ's death, Resurrection, and in our partaking of the latter through Holy Communion. The Theotokos certainly was needed for those, but she isn't the person they were accomplished in, which is what the title "Redeemer" refers to.

indeed, while you can say she aided in that Christ took His flesh from her, she was not the agent of our redemption, which is the Lord.

 

[ripple the car]

I think - I only found one? I can't remember how early? I wish I'd taken notes, but I didn't figure my searching was really worth preserving, lol. I guess I can start looking again. It would probably be more helpful now than it was then, if such can be found

Anastasia, the only one I could find that seemed super early was Sub Tuum Praesidium.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium

 

[ripple the car]

That would certainly seem to pre-date Nicea.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Anastasia, the only one I could find that seemed super early was Sub Tuum Praesidium.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium

I don't recall reading the Wiki page, but I think that's the same one I found. Thank you.

It's interesting seeing it in various versions of different traditions.

 

[ripple the car]

What kinds of things should we pray to Mary for?

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

What kinds of things should we pray to Mary for?

Everything.

 

[ripple the car]

Everything.

Hmm. Ok. So... Keeping in mind that I'm coming from thirty years of Protestant theology and praxis, where should I start? Thank you for your answer, by the way! I don't understand it now, but hope to someday.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Hmm. Ok. So... Keeping in mind that I'm coming from thirty years of Protestant theology and praxis, where should I start? Thank you for your answer, by the way! I don't understand it now, but hope to someday.

First thing of I were protestant and a non denomination at that and converted to Catholicism in 14 at a age of 23 so due to my journey I had less problems with Mariology than many others have experienced.

In your case my first advice is to walk not run I guess.
Let it mature over time.

When you pray to her you may in the beginning make use of the addition "through Christ our Lord" as it helps you not feeling guilty of making her a deity which of course you know she isn't.

When I pray to Mary I often do it using a style and language that probably would've made my Pentecostal grandparents swallow their tounge, but I do so in confidence that both Christ and I know that he's the bridge and the redeemeder and that all veneration of his mother is glorification of him as she always leads to her.

To begin with I would start by saying the Hail Mary's so to make yourself familiar with Marian prayers of I were you.

 

[ripple the car]

First thing of I were protestant and a non denomination at that and converted to Catholicism in 14 at a age of 23 so due to my journey I had less problems with Mariology than many others have experienced.

In your case my first advice is to walk not run I guess.
Let it mature over time.

When you pray to her you may in the beginning make use of the addition "through Christ our Lord" as it helps you not feeling guilty of making her a deity which of course you know she isn't.

When I pray to Mary I often do it using a style and language that probably would've made my Pentecostal grandparents swallow their tounge, but I do so in confidence that both Christ and I know that he's the bridge and the redeemeder and that all veneration of his mother is glorification of him as she always leads to her.

To begin with I would start by saying the Hail Mary's so to make yourself familiar with Marian prayers.

Thank you! Baby steps.

 

[ArmyMatt]

What kinds of things should we pray to Mary for?

number one is that she pray to her Son for our salvation. which is the same for any saint, but she as special boldness being His Mother.