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Prayers to Theotokos...Some QuestionsI've

Dec 16, 2011
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I tend pray for important things, like my own salvation or that of someone I know who is in need of help, or for the healing of someone who is suffering greatly from illness. Once I asked the Theotokos to pray to her Son that I might be given help for my strong unbelief, doubtful whether or not she or any God is even there to hear the request. We can ask for a lot of things.
 
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All4Christ

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Since I've been dealing with some similar issues, I found a few prayers that I have no problem with (or at least feel more comfortable). Maybe they can help at some point?

O Theotokos, you are the true vine, that has put forth the fruit of life. We pray, O Lady, intercede together with the Apostles and all the saints, that mercy may be granted to our souls.

As there is no boldness in us because of the multitude of our sins, O Virgin Theotokos, intercede with the Son whom you have borne, for the entreaty of a mother has great power to win the favor of the Master. Despise not, O all venerable Lady, the prayers of sinners, for He who took upon Himself to suffer for our sake is merciful and strong to save.

Let Thy tender mercies, O Lord, speedily go before us, for we are become exceeding poor. Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of Thy name; O Lord, deliver us and purge away our sins, for Thy name's sake.

Beneath thy compassion,
 We take refuge, O Mother of God:
 do not despise our petitions in time of trouble,
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure one, only blessed one.

I included the last one due to it being the earliest known written prayer to the Theotokos (~250AD).
 
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All4Christ

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While I am fairly comfortable with the prayers above, perhaps the angelic greeting would be a better prayer to start with:

Rejoice! O Virgin Theotokos! Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, for you have borne the Savior of our souls! (Luke 1:28)

O Holy Mother of God, pray to your Son for us sinners!
 
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All4Christ

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Since I've been dealing with some similar issues, I found a few prayers that I have no problem with (or at least feel more comfortable). Maybe they can help at some point?

O Theotokos, you are the true vine, that has put forth the fruit of life. We pray, O Lady, intercede together with the Apostles and all the saints, that mercy may be granted to our souls.

As there is no boldness in us because of the multitude of our sins, O Virgin Theotokos, intercede with the Son whom you have borne, for the entreaty of a mother has great power to win the favor of the Master. Despise not, O all venerable Lady, the prayers of sinners, for He who took upon Himself to suffer for our sake is merciful and strong to save.

Let Thy tender mercies, O Lord, speedily go before us, for we are become exceeding poor. Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of Thy name; O Lord, deliver us and purge away our sins, for Thy name's sake.

Beneath thy compassion,
 We take refuge, O Mother of God:
 do not despise our petitions in time of trouble,
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure one, only blessed one.

I included the last one due to it being the earliest known written prayer to the Theotokos (~250AD).

Speaking of the prayers I just posted, do any of you who are more comfortable with the prayers know why these prayers would say "true vine" when scripture says that Jesus is the true vine? I'm assuming it is one of those play on words phrases, where the "fruit" she bore is the true vine, hence her role as the true vine?
 
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Dec 16, 2011
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Speaking of the prayers I just posted, do any of you who are more comfortable with the prayers know why these prayers would say "true vine" when scripture says that Jesus is the true vine? I'm assuming it is one of those play on words phrases, where the "fruit" she bore is the true vine, hence her role as the true vine?
It isn't meant in exactly the same sense as when Christ says of Himself that He is the true vine. The prayerful reference to the Theotokos as a true vine is born of Orthodox Theology that speaks of Christ as the "fruit of the tree of Life" (from the father's commentaries on the Genesis account of Paradise). The language of prayer is often poetic (so metaphorical), not literal. Those of Protestant upbringings and superbly active left cerebral hemispheres which specialize in literal meanings (which tend to go along with one another) seem to really struggle with this.
 
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Dec 16, 2011
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I must add that Christ's language was metaphorical also, when He called Himself the True Vine, yet He is also the Head of the Church, the Bridegroom, the Lamb, etc. He is called many things and has many metaphorical names that point to Who He is. Christ is the True Vine in a sense that all who bear good fruit do so because they are connected to and grow out from Him (as offshoots from the One Tree). Theotokos is the true vine in the sense that she brings forth the fruit of Life -- the body and blood of Christ, as All4Christ stated above.
 
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paul becke

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I honestly think it's a very good idea to address things that might possibly cause concern, and give reasons and explanations for each of them, if there is one and it's appropriate.

The ones that say "save us" in some form are the ones I have the best understanding of. (Some of them I can't answer at all yet.)

Firstly, we sing "Through the prayers of the Theotokos, Savior save us!" Sometimes that gets abbreviated down in various steps, the perhaps the simplest of which is merely "most Holy Theotokos save us". In the cases where we are really asking Christ to save us and to add the intercession of the Theotokos to that effect, I see nothing wrong. That's no different than someone who is struggling and asks someone else to pray that God will help him, and almost no one would object to that.

Sometimes too the 'saving" we request is not eternal salvation, but protection from harm here on earth. There is indeed a long history of such prayers to the Theotokos (Panagia), and many accounts of miraculous answers. Pairing that with the understanding of the Theotokos as already in a glorified resurrection body, and being that her life was essentially devoted to bringing forth the Christ, so she is intensely invested in seeing His work furthered, it begins to make sense.

And as someone mentioned, Paul even talks about himself as "saving some" ... and we don't interpret that to mean that Paul is anyone's savior or a co-redeemer in any way.

I understand most of those instances, based on one or a combination of these factors.

Other things I read I'd like to understand better. I may, as I run across them, ask specifically about. When I first encountered them, I wasn't able to discern how much weight the Church places on various things. And the source may be a bit questionable - I don't remember where they come from so don't know.

I'm most uncomfortable, for example, with a description I read where Christ was supposedly ready to act in vengeance and the Theotokos stayed Him. (Being that it seemed to mischaracterize Christ, I'm thinking this one might not be "official".)

But what we find in the Liturgy IS accepted by the Church, so it needs to be understood, or dealt with, etc.

I'm still working on it.

Because I am baptized Orthodox, I accept the Church's authority and I believe in the end I will find that she is correct, when I properly understand. Any perceived error I attribute to my own misunderstanding, and I've found that repeatedly to be true early on, which is why I'm able to accept it. However, in the meantime, with my lack of understanding, some prayers would violate my conscience, so I don't say them. I think that is wise, because in my misunderstanding, I think I would mean something the Church doesn't really intend to say if I pray them, so I hold off until I reach understanding.

But I do think it's very important to address these things.
Is it possible that some Catholic / Orthodox laypersons have a misconception about this?

In Protestantism, there is a phenomenon called "easy-believism", in which one is saved and forgiven now and forever by simple faith in Christ minus any kind of holiness, effort, discipleship, charity, forgiveness of others, or growth after the fact.

Could it be that some Catholics and Orthodox misunderstand the role of the Virgin and use her mercy and prayers as a presumed "get out of hell free" card? Minus efforts at discipleship, growth, holiness, or carrying one's cross?

I'm not saying that the Orthodox and Catholic churches actually *teach* this, only that perhaps some laypeople have misunderstood?

Yes, there is a wonderful blend of rigorous reasoning, and yet a concomitant acceptance of mystery, in the context you address, when we put more puzzling beliefs on the back-burner, pending enlightenment at some later time - and which, like you, I have found do tend to be duly clarified, one way or another.
 
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paul becke

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Yes, there is a wonderful blend of rigorous reasoning and acceptance of mystery - in the context you address, when we put more puzzling beliefs on the back-burner, pending enlightenment at some later time - and which, like you, I have found does tend to be duly granted in due course.
 
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