Prayers to Theotokos...Some QuestionsI've

[Jesus4Madrid]

First, to anyone joining this thread, realize that I am posting this in the Orthodox forum because I only want opinions of those who respect, honor, venerate, love, and ask for intercession from the Theotokos.

So I've been defending our Theology of venerating, honoring and praying to the Theotokos. Part of my defense is that we don't believe she should be worshipped, all power comes from God, etc. etc. We honor her, lover her, revere her and try to emulate her life. We call her blessed, full of grace, the new Eve, the new ark of the covenant and more. Yet I still have issues with some of our prayers, especially some I've found online - and a few from the Jordonville prayer book.

For example, see the prayers on this website:

http://www.orthodoxmom.com/2012/08/03/prayers-to-the-theotokos-for-every-day-of-the-week/

Some phrases include "have mercy on me, deliver me from my distress, you can do all things, turn not away from me, I place all my hope in thee, rescue me, save me, I place all my hope in you, sweet hope of my salvation" and more.

How do we reconcile our Theology with these prayers? I have absolutely no problem with our Theology, but some of the prayers seem to go beyond our Theology.

I was reading this thread on another device that didn't allow me to see the Church affiliation and I kept thinking that a few of the posters here seem more like Roman Catholics in their understanding of the Theotokos. And then, I discovered that they are in fact Roman Catholic.

My first advice on this difficult subject would be to speak to Orthodox posters. With all due respect to RCs--hey, my family is RC--they do not have the same spirituality and veneration of the Theotokos that we have. Indeed, the article from St John Maximovitch regarding the veneration of the Theotokos is directed, in part, to counter Latin heresies and their encroachment in the Orthodox Church. Roman Catholics like to trivialise differences about this and other aspects of Orthodoxy. We are different and have really different approaches to the veneration of the Theotokos. In my opinion, some Roman Catholics exceed what is meet and right in their veneration and border on what former Metr. Jonah called "Marian hypertrophy".

I agree that some of the liturgical prayers are rather confusing. I'll give an example. In the Orthodox prayers suggested before communing, they say the following:

"My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection is the Holy Spirit. O Holy Trinity, glory to You."

But then, on the next line:

"All my hope I place in you, O Mother of God: guard me under your protection."
http://www.denver.goarch.org/saintnicholasgj/orthodox_worship/prayer/daily_prayers.html#axion

It is rather confusing. Is all my hope in the Theotokos, and if so, how do I have hope left over for the Father?

Clearly, there is a lot of hyperbole going on here with prayers that originated in another language, in this case Greek.

However, in spite of such confusion, I have never met serious Orthodox Christians who are confused about the role of the Theotokos (and I have met RCs who were). So, my advice is to skip over those prayers that you find troubling.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Is it possible that some Catholic / Orthodox laypersons have a misconception about this?

In Protestantism, there is a phenomenon called "easy-believism", in which one is saved and forgiven now and forever by simple faith in Christ minus any kind of holiness, effort, discipleship, charity, forgiveness of others, or growth after the fact.

Could it be that some Catholics and Orthodox misunderstand the role of the Virgin and use her mercy and prayers as a presumed "get out of hell free" card? Minus efforts at discipleship, growth, holiness, or carrying one's cross?

I'm not saying that the Orthodox and Catholic churches actually *teach* this, only that perhaps some laypeople have misunderstood?

I don't think so if you pay attention to the hymns and prayers of the Church. I would assume Rome would be similar in that vein

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

I was reading this thread on another device that didn't allow me to see the Church affiliation and I kept thinking that a few of the posters here seem more like Roman Catholics in their understanding of the Theotokos. And then, I discovered that they are in fact Roman Catholic.

My first advice on this difficult subject would be to speak to Orthodox posters. With all due respect to RCs--hey, my family is RC--they do not have the same spirituality and veneration of the Theotokos that we have. Indeed, the article from St John Maximovitch regarding the veneration of the Theotokos is directed, in part, to counter Latin heresies and their encroachment in the Orthodox Church. Roman Catholics like to trivialise differences about this and other aspects of Orthodoxy. We are different and have really different approaches to the veneration of the Theotokos. In my opinion, some Roman Catholics exceed what is meet and right in their veneration and border on what former Metr. Jonah called "Marian hypertrophy".

I agree that some of the liturgical prayers are rather confusing. I'll give an example. In the Orthodox prayers suggested before communing, they say the following:

"My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection is the Holy Spirit. O Holy Trinity, glory to You."

But then, on the next line:

"All my hope I place in you, O Mother of God: guard me under your protection."
http://www.denver.goarch.org/saintnicholasgj/orthodox_worship/prayer/daily_prayers.html#axion

It is rather confusing. Is all my hope in the Theotokos, and if so, how do I have hope left over for the Father?

Clearly, there is a lot of hyperbole going on here with prayers that originated in another language, in this case Greek.

However, in spite of such confusion, I have never met serious Orthodox Christians who are confused about the role of the Theotokos (and I have met RCs who were). So, my advice is to skip over those prayers that you find troubling.

Would you as Orthodox have problems with say salve Regina for example?
I know it's Catholic which make it a unlikely choice for you to chant or pray, but as far as the text concerns do you have any prohibitions towards it or JPII and his memorare to Mary?

(Asking solemnly out of curiosity btw)

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

That's so important that you have both her and God to comfort you and be there for you during this time! It also is encouraging to see that over time, we can understand her role and relationship more.

I too am praying for you! It's so wonderful we have the entire body of Christ, both here on this earth and all in Heaven to join in prayer.

I think for now, I will continue to add that part saying "through your prayers" or "the power your Son gave you"...and I think I also will talk to my priest.

If that helps you in your prayer life then I highly recommend for you to pray as you feel comfortable with.

Yes she may grow on you so to speak or she may not, it depends on which fruits your faith gives you.
That varies from one to another.

Thanks again for prayers and thoughts.
You move my heart sister.

 

[All4Christ]

For anyone struggling with the Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us prayer, I recently read this helpful explanation. I understood the reasoning for that line, but this is a good reminder for the full meaning of the prayer:

"We say in prayer to the Mother of God: “Most Holy Theotokos, save us.” This doesn’t mean that we consider her to be our savior. The Savior is Christ. But we confess her involvement in the mystery of salvation, her participation in this mystery. And we understand that salvation is possible for us because the Mother of God expressed her agreement with the word of God addressed to her. And, thanks to her consent, we have access to her Son and her God, our Heavenly Father."

 

[All4Christ]

Would you as Orthodox have problems with say salve Regina for example?
I know it's Catholic which make it a unlikely choice for you to chant or pray, but as far as the text concerns do you have any prohibitions towards it or JPII and his memorare to Mary?

(Asking solemnly out of curiosity btw)

Salve Regina?

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

I was reading this thread on another device that didn't allow me to see the Church affiliation and I kept thinking that a few of the posters here seem more like Roman Catholics in their understanding of the Theotokos. And then, I discovered that they are in fact Roman Catholic.

My first advice on this difficult subject would be to speak to Orthodox posters. With all due respect to RCs--hey, my family is RC--they do not have the same spirituality and veneration of the Theotokos that we have. Indeed, the article from St John Maximovitch regarding the veneration of the Theotokos is directed, in part, to counter Latin heresies and their encroachment in the Orthodox Church. Roman Catholics like to trivialise differences about this and other aspects of Orthodoxy. We are different and have really different approaches to the veneration of the Theotokos. In my opinion, some Roman Catholics exceed what is meet and right in their veneration and border on what former Metr. Jonah called "Marian hypertrophy".

I'm very familiar with the theology behind "oh most holy Theotokos save us" prayer.
That being said however it feels a bit strange to say that prayer at every DL and then accuse us of getting to marian.

We never actually say that prayer. We may venerated her a lot, but keeping in mind the save us part of the Orthodox theology it seems strange to forward such allegations.

I just find it puzzling that's all.
(I'm not picking a fight I know I'm on orthodox ground and I respect and love you guys.)

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Salve Regina?

Hail Holy Queen in English.

 

[GoingByzantine]

I am very happy that All4Christ managed to put to words, some of the concerns that I have had about certain prayers to the Theotokos.

There are a few prayers out there that seem very direct, and they give the feeling that we are asking Mary to directly save us. I realize that these direct prayers likely are just asking for Mary to intercede for us, but that does not stop me from being uneasy about them for some reason.

 

[All4Christ]

I know there are many more words in Greek that don't have a direct equivalent in English, and that Church Slavonic doesn't always translate easily to English. Could this be one reason for the directness and hyperbole, as Jesus4Madrid mentioned, that can be found in some of the more intense prayers to the Theotokos?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think the translation of the word "save" itself is in some cases a matter of translation problem.

Sometimes it is (I believe) intended to be "save us from these enemies" rather than something like "save me from eternal lost-ness".

 

[~Anastasia~]

I am very happy that All4Christ managed to put to words, some of the concerns that I have had about certain prayers to the Theotokos.

There are a few prayers out there that seem very direct, and they give the feeling that we are asking Mary to directly save us. I realize that these direct prayers likely are just asking for Mary to intercede for us, but that does not stop me from being uneasy about them for some reason.

Hi, GB, good to see you! I hope all is well with you.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

I am very happy that All4Christ managed to put to words, some of the concerns that I have had about certain prayers to the Theotokos.

There are a few prayers out there that seem very direct, and they give the feeling that we are asking Mary to directly save us. I realize that these direct prayers likely are just asking for Mary to intercede for us, but that does not stop me from being uneasy about them for some reason.

It's all about intent. If you have improper intent, seeing Mary as co-redemptrix, then that's no good. If you don't, then there's hardly anything objectionable about it. Icons can be objectionable too if you have an idolatrous intent. Heck, even crucifixes are objectionable if you have an idolatrous intent.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

Would you as Orthodox have problems with say salve Regina for example?
I know it's Catholic which make it a unlikely choice for you to chant or pray, but as far as the text concerns do you have any prohibitions towards it or JPII and his memorare to Mary?

(Asking solemnly out of curiosity btw)

I would have the same reservations about these lines that I have about those Orthodox prayers I quoted:
Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy,
our life, our sweetness, and our hope.

Since God is really our hope and our life.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

I would have the same reservations about these lines that I have about those Orthodox prayers I quoted:
Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy,
our life, our sweetness, and our hope.

Since God is really our hope and our life.

What about "Beneath Thy Compassion"? It's one of the oldest extant Christian hymns.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

It's all about intent. If you have improper intent, seeing Mary as co-redemptrix, then that's no good. If you don't, then there's hardly anything objectionable about it. Icons can be objectionable too if you have an idolatrous intent. Heck, even crucifixes are objectionable if you have an idolatrous intent.

So Mary shouldn't be seen as co-redemrix ?
her cooperation and yes to God was/is vital for the salvation of mankind.
It's from her and her alone Christ has his human DNA or nature if you like.

She suffered so much as part of Christ's crucifixion.
Her womb nurtured him for nine months.

How is she not a co-redemrix ?

 

[seekingsolace]

Reading through the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom the save us makes more sense in that context. I still would feel uncomfortable using the prayer isolated from the preceding petition.

Kontakion, 6th Tone:

From the heavens hast thou received grace, and by thy lips thou dost teach all to worship the One God in Trinity, O John Chrysostom, all blessed righteous one. Rightly do we acclaim thee, for thou art a teacher revealing things divine.

Both now...

O protection of Christians that cannot be put to shame, O Mediation unto the Creator unfailing: Disdain not the suppliant voices of sinners; but be thou quick, O good one, to help us who in faith cry unto Thee; hasten to intercession and speed thou to make supplication, thou who dost ever protect, O Theotokos, them that honor thee.

Lord, have mercy (12 Times)

Priest: Most Holy Theotokos save us!

 

[All4Christ]

So Mary shouldn't be seen as co-redemrix ?
her cooperation and yes to God was/is vital for the salvation of mankind.
It's from her and her alone Christ has his human DNA or nature if you like.

She suffered so much as part of Christ's crucifixion.
Her womb nurtured him for nine months.

How is she not a co-redemrix ?

Certainly she cooperated in our salvation...though we also cooperate in our salvation. We don't save ourselves, but we do cooperate to provide the personal conditions to allow God's salvation. I don't believe we have the same level of participation, as her participation affected all of mankind. Certainly her role is unique. That said, just as I need redemption, the Theotokos also needed redemption.

@ArmyMatt said this in another thread in response to "do Orthodox believe Mary is co-redemptrix":

yes in the sense that it was from her that God took the flesh that died on the Cross, no in the sense that is nowhere near what God did on the Cross with that flesh

Bishop Malou's description of Co-redemptress is an example of what makes us uncomfortable with that term:

“In three respects—as Daughter, as Mother, and as Spouse of God—the Holy Virgin is exalted to a certain equality with the Father, to a certain superiority over the Son, to a certain nearness to the Holy Spirit” (“ The Immaculate Conception,” Malou, Bishop of Brouges).

 

[All4Christ]

Reading through the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom the save us makes more sense in that context. I still would feel uncomfortable using the prayer isolated from the preceding petition.

Kontakion, 6th Tone:

From the heavens hast thou received grace, and by thy lips thou dost teach all to worship the One God in Trinity, O John Chrysostom, all blessed righteous one. Rightly do we acclaim thee, for thou art a teacher revealing things divine.

Both now...

O protection of Christians that cannot be put to shame, O Mediation unto the Creator unfailing: Disdain not the suppliant voices of sinners; but be thou quick, O good one, to help us who in faith cry unto Thee; hasten to intercession and speed thou to make supplication, thou who dost ever protect, O Theotokos, them that honor thee.

Lord, have mercy (12 Times)

Priest: Most Holy Theotokos save us!

Context certainly is critical.

 

[GoingByzantine]

Hi, GB, good to see you! I hope all is well with you.

All is well. I have been very busy at work, which is why I have not posted much lately.

It's all about intent. If you have improper intent, seeing Mary as co-redemptrix, then that's no good. If you don't, then there's hardly anything objectionable about it. Icons can be objectionable too if you have an idolatrous intent. Heck, even crucifixes are objectionable if you have an idolatrous intent.

Good point, intent is key. Non-Orthodox outsiders might treat us like we are heretics for some of these "direct" prayers, but ultimately God can judge our hearts.