Prayers to Theotokos...Some QuestionsI've

[All4Christ]

First, to anyone joining this thread, realize that I am posting this in the Orthodox forum because I only want opinions of those who respect, honor, venerate, love, and ask for intercession from the Theotokos.

So I've been defending our Theology of venerating, honoring and praying to the Theotokos. Part of my defense is that we don't believe she should be worshipped, all power comes from God, etc. etc. We honor her, lover her, revere her and try to emulate her life. We call her blessed, full of grace, the new Eve, the new ark of the covenant and more. Yet I still have issues with some of our prayers, especially some I've found online - and a few from the Jordonville prayer book.

For example, see the prayers on this website:

http://www.orthodoxmom.com/2012/08/03/prayers-to-the-theotokos-for-every-day-of-the-week/

Some phrases include "have mercy on me, deliver me from my distress, you can do all things, turn not away from me, I place all my hope in thee, rescue me, save me, I place all my hope in you, sweet hope of my salvation" and more.

How do we reconcile our Theology with these prayers? I have absolutely no problem with our Theology, but some of the prayers seem to go beyond our Theology.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

The impact she has on Christ is so big that what she asks for be that your salvation or mine will most likely be granted.

So her genuine intersession on our behalf is salvatory, hence Holy Theotokos save us and so on...

Faith in Mary is faith in Christ.

 

[All4Christ]

The impact she has on Christ is so big that what she asks for be that your salvation or mine will most likely be granted.

So her genuine intersession on our behalf is salvatory, hence Holy Theotokos save us and so on...

Faith in Mary is faith in Christ.

It's so good to see you Stabat Mater! You are in my prayers!

I honestly understand the Most Holy Theotokos Save Us in the liturgy, though I am aware that it has more meaning than just "Save Us", as I know she isn't saving us through her own power - but through her intercession, her yes to God, becoming the mother of God the Son, etc. I do agree with that Theology.

Yet - some of the wording of these prayers seem to go beyond that understanding...at least from my perspective.

 

[ArmyMatt]

"have mercy on me, deliver me from my distress, you can do all things, turn not away from me, I place all my hope in thee, rescue me, save me, I place all my hope in you, sweet hope of my salvation"

but even these prayers, we know are only because God allows her to do so, and because she is aligned closest with God. sorta like how St Paul says that he has become all things to all men, in order that he might save some, when we know it is really Christ Who is the true Savior. St Paul was not usurping Christ, but rather showing what Christ can do through him.

same is with these prayers. she can only do what the prayers say by God's grace and according to His Will

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

We're asking the Theotokos to save us through her prayers. I'm pretty sure everyone who goes to Liturgy is familiar with, "Through the prayers of the Theotokos, Savior save us." Intercession through holy men was a thing even in the OT. The Theotokos, however, because she did not sin, is particularly petitioned as a bulwark against temptation. When we are saying, "rescue me, save me," we are asking her to save us from our weaknesses and temptations through her prayers.

 

[All4Christ]

We're asking the Theotokos to save us through her prayers. I'm pretty sure everyone who goes to Liturgy is familiar with, "Through the prayers of the Theotokos, Savior save us." Intercession through holy men was a thing even in the OT. The Theotokos, however, because she did not sin, is particularly petitioned as a bulwark against temptation. When we are saying, "rescue me, save me," we are asking her to save us from our weaknesses and temptations through her prayers.

That makes sense. That said, why don't the prayers say "through your prayers" for clarification?

And "you can do all things", "I place all my hope in thee", "sweet hope of my salvation"? These are only a few of the many things said in the prayers I linked to.

Perhaps it is the tone that bothers me, more so than the theological concepts. From my background, understanding the context ("through her prayers") is important, and it concerns me that people who aren't aware of our theology (or aren't being taught about it) - including some Orthodox Christians - may not understand the context.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

That makes sense. That said, why don't the prayers say "through your prayers" for clarification?

And "you can do all things", "I place all my hope in thee", "sweet hope of my salvation"? These are only a few of the many things said in the prayers I linked to.

Perhaps it is the tone that bothers me, more so than the theological concepts. From my background, understanding the context ("through her prayers") is important, and it concerns me that people who aren't aware of our theology (or aren't being taught about it) - including some Orthodox Christians - may not understand the context.

It's as if you asked a holy man to heal you. You say, "Please, father, heal me." And if he does, of course it is through his prayers, even though you asked him. God gives the righteous the authority to do his works (John 14:12).

 

[paul becke]

I think All4Christ understands that, ArmyMatt, and I take her point. Perhaps, the expression, 'on the face of it', should have prefaced her point for others not so persuaded, to understand it.

I even used to find that beautiful Salve Regina a little 'over the top', so I know what you mean. They are good prayers for all that much is expressed in a very brief form, and must baffle non-Catholics, while seeming a little bit extreme (if that's not an oxymoron !) to converts and reverts.

Oddly enough, I suspect that the explicit tribute to Our Lady in such prayers, which seems almost, at times, a string of quasi-divine attributes in praise of her, God intends ultimately as a tribute to all of us, as his children adopted into his family. 'He became man so we might become gods', in St. Athanasius' words. Or as Jesus quoted : 'Know ye not that ye are gods.'

I do think the Roman Catholic church has been, at best, remiss in communicating that truth, whereas I heard a priest say the other day that the Orthodox were more forthcoming about it ; seems a kind of strange inversion in a way ; in that the Orthodox are so 'into' liturgical splendour, 'bells and smells', as the saying goes. Embryonic 'other Christs, sure, but nevertheless.... ; and by extrapolation, our glory as such, hidden from view*, as Christ hid his own glory, save at his Transfiguration.

*Except for those with St Paul's divine X-ray vision, seeing Christ's Passion and crucifixion as a triumphal procession of prisoners ... in the form of his tormentors and killers !!!!

 

[All4Christ]

It's as if you asked a holy man to heal you. You say, "Please, father, heal me." And if he does, of course it is through his prayers, even though you asked him. God gives the righteous the authority to do his works (John 14:12).

I honestly wouldn't ask him to heal me, but would ask him to pray for healing. I get your point though

 

[All4Christ]

I think All4Christ understands that, ArmyMatt, and I take her point. Perhaps, the expression, 'on the face of it', should have prefaced her point for others not so persuaded, to understand it.

I even used to find that beautiful Salve Regina a little 'over the top', so I know what you mean. They are good prayers for all that much is expressed in a very brief form, and must baffle non-Catholics, while seeming a little bit extreme (if that's not an oxymoron !) to converts and reverts.

Oddly enough, I suspect that the explicit tribute to Our Lady in such prayers, which seems almost, at times, a string of quasi-divine attributes in praise of her, God intends ultimately as a tribute to all of us, as his children adopted into his family. 'He became man so we might become gods', in St. Athanasius' words. Or as Jesus quoted : 'Know ye not that ye are gods.'

I do think the Roman Catholic church has been, at best, remiss in communicating that truth, whereas I heard a priest say the other day that the Orthodox were more forthcoming about it ; seems a kind of strange inversion in a way ; in that the Orthodox are so 'into' liturgical splendour, 'bells and smells', as the saying goes. Embryonic 'other Christs, sure, but nevertheless.... ; and by extrapolation, our glory as such, hidden from view*, as Christ hid his own glory, save at his Transfiguration.

*Except for those with St Paul's divine X-ray vision, seeing Christ's Passion and crucifixion as a triumphal procession of prisoners ... in the form of his tormentors and killers !!!!

A bit short on time and will write more soon, but yes, that captures my concern perfectly . Adding "face value" would have been helpful...maybe I will add an ETA to it

Your comment about St Athanasius and us being part of God's family is a good way to think about it - thanks!

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

"Never be afraid of loving the Blessed Virgin too much. You can never love her more than Jesus did.”

"The Immaculate alone has from God the promise of victory over Satan. She seeks souls that will consecrate themselves entirely to her, that will become in her hands forceful instruments for the defeat of Satan and the spread of God's kingdom."

”The conflict with Hell cannot be maintained by men, even the most clever. The Immaculata alone has from God the promise of victory over Satan.”


”Jesus honored her before all ages, and will honor her for all ages. No one comes to Him, nor even near Him, no one is saved or sanctified, if he too will not honor her. This is the lot of Angels and of men.”

"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother."

All these quotes are from st Maximilian Kolbe a great saint and martyr of the western church.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Could it be that you've kept some emotional attachment to a more reserved Mariology from your pre-orthodox past ?

I know some Catholics who struggle with veneration of the blessed Lady and some of them struggle to even pray the rosary.

It's a very common phenomena among protestant converts I suspect.

 

[truefiction1]

Simply put, the language is intentionally "over the top" as it was put. It is done so, however, in order for us to become aware that our sinfulness and helplessness is "over the top". It is not idolatry of the Theotokos that the language conveys, but the inner sense of our own depravity that is drawn out by using such language. This is why we use these expressions that seem so troublesome. The language is poetic and not literal.

It used to bother me at times until I realized what the language is designed to do within the soul of the person hearing it. It is for our own spiritual benefit that we sing such things. Western man has lost his/her sense of metaphor and metaphorical language. We need to return to the humble faith of our fathers and mothers in order to be healed.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Simply put, the language is intentionally "over the top" as it was put. It is done so, however, in order for us to become aware that our sinfulness and helplessness is "over the top". It is not idolatry of the Theotokos that the language conveys, but the inner sense of our own depravity that is drawn out by using such language. This is why we use these expressions that seem so troublesome. The language is poetic and not literal.

It used to bother me at times until I realized what the language is designed to do within the soul of the person hearing it. It is for our own spiritual benefit that we sing such things. Western man has lost his/her sense of metaphor and metaphorical language. We need to return to the humble faith of our fathers and mothers in order to be healed.

Hmmmmmm.

I could have written A4C's post pretty much word for word. I understand the THEOLOGY as it is explained to me, and I understand the hymns we sing and I'm fine with that, but a few of the prayers seem to ascribe almost divine attributes to the Theotokos, or ask her directly to do things that I would only ask God.

I remember once I visited an Antiochian parish for Divine Liturgy, and after receiving the Eucharist I was reading the thanksgiving prayers. There was one directed to the Theotokos which wasn't in our (Greek) books, and I'd never read it, but it was profoundly moving to me in just the way you say - so much so that after the Liturgy I asked the priest's wife for permission to take a photo of the prayer, and she printed me a copy instead.

But there are still prayers in some of the collections I have that I skip over because I'm uncomfortable with them. I have come to learn that when I'm uncomfortable with anything in Orthodoxy, it turns out that I am misunderstanding, and if properly understood, I always agree in the end. But I'm obviously not properly understanding these yet then, because I'm not yet comfortable or in total agreement with some phrases. (I do understand what we mean in the songs that are sometimes abbreviated down to "Theotokos save us".)

My biggest concern though, is them being taken at face value by Protestants, who will surely see elements of near-worship and supplication to the divine, in the best-case scenario.

The Theotokos has been my biggest stumbling block in understanding, all the way through. I make progress, over time, then something else crops up to require study and working through.

And yes, I converted from Protestantism, and in some cases was taught a very anti-Catholic form of Protestantism. And most of my family (almost all?) would fit in that category, so I feel as though I'm walking on eggshells quite often, because they often see no difference between Orthodoxy and Catholicism.)

 

[prodromos]

The hymns and prayers also need to be understood in the context of the innumerable times Panagia has literally stepped in to save us throughout the history of the Church. It is quite evident that she has aligned her will completely with Christ's and involves herself heavily in the salvation of God's people. There are many, many miracle working icons of Panagia, and if you recall the colors used for her robes and Christ's in Orthodox icons, Christ wears red or purple underneath with blue over the top signifying His divinity clothed in our humanity, whereas with Panagia she wears blue underneath with red or purple over the top signifying her humanity is now clothed in Christ's divinity. This of course will be the outcome for all who are found at Christ's right hand, "God became man so that man might become god", but the Church has declared that it is already the reality for the Mother of God. .
The question I ask now is if Panagia has indeed been clothed in Christ's divinity, would she not now be able to do by Grace what God does by nature?

From the many times she has stepped in, I suspect the answer is yes.

 

[truefiction1]

Hmmmmmm.

I could have written A4C's post pretty much word for word. I understand the THEOLOGY as it is explained to me, and I understand the hymns we sing and I'm fine with that, but a few of the prayers seem to ascribe almost divine attributes to the Theotokos, or ask her directly to do things that I would only ask God.

I remember once I visited an Antiochian parish for Divine Liturgy, and after receiving the Eucharist I was reading the thanksgiving prayers. There was one directed to the Theotokos which wasn't in our (Greek) books, and I'd never read it, but it was profoundly moving to me in just the way you say - so much so that after the Liturgy I asked the priest's wife for permission to take a photo of the prayer, and she printed me a copy instead.

But there are still prayers in some of the collections I have that I skip over because I'm uncomfortable with them. I have come to learn that when I'm uncomfortable with anything in Orthodoxy, it turns out that I am misunderstanding, and if properly understood, I always agree in the end. But I'm obviously not properly understanding these yet then, because I'm not yet comfortable or in total agreement with some phrases. (I do understand what we mean in the songs that are sometimes abbreviated down to "Theotokos save us".)

My biggest concern though, is them being taken at face value by Protestants, who will surely see elements of near-worship and supplication to the divine, in the best-case scenario.

The Theotokos has been my biggest stumbling block in understanding, all the way through. I make progress, over time, then something else crops up to require study and working through.

And yes, I converted from Protestantism, and in some cases was taught a very anti-Catholic form of Protestantism. And most of my family (almost all?) would fit in that category, so I feel as though I'm walking on eggshells quite often, because they often see no difference between Orthodoxy and Catholicism.)

I understand your sensitivity to the Protestant mindset. However, the Protestant mindset must be overcome in the process of coming to know God in Communion, because a Protestant mindset is one which projects fallen human emotions, such as pride/vanity and their daughter, envy, onto God, thereby falsifying the image of God into a being that would be offended by the honor given to Theotokos. I assure you that God is not by any means offended by the strongly poetic language of these hymns and chants of ours. God is Love. We can't help Protestants by changing what we do, only by helping them to understand that what we do is not evil, even though the evil one has a way of making it appear that way.

 

[truefiction1]

Also, I think that Podromos' last post has nailed the Protestant problem, because whereas we know that salvation is deification, wherein a person becomes by grace what God is by nature, Protestants tend to believe that salvation is something else. Salvation, in other words, is for us the completion of our creation in the "likeness" of God, which is what will happen for us when Christ returns to either resurrect or change us. For the Theotokos, this finishing of her creation in the likeness of God is already complete, because she is raised bodily and deified in her body. Thus, she is like Christ in that she has divine power embodied in her, and her will matches God's will, so can do certain things to help us.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Also, I think that Podromos' last post has nailed the Protestant problem, because whereas we know that salvation is deification, wherein a person becomes by grace what God is by nature, Protestants tend to believe that salvation is something else. Salvation, in other words, is for us the completion of our creation in the "likeness" of God, which is what will happen for us when Christ returns to either resurrect or change us. For the Theotokos, this finishing of her creation in the likeness of God is already complete, because she is raised bodily and deified in her body. Thus, she is like Christ in that she has divine power embodied in her, and her will matches God's will, so can do certain things to help us.

Thank you, and that is actually something that struck me in full force a few weeks ago when I was listening to a podcast series about death and the afterlife. I know the Theotokos was assumed after her death, but I hadn't fully thought through what that meant, in terms of the fact that she must already then have received the glorified resurrection body we were all promised. So ... yes, there is more that goes along with that. I've been thinking about it for a few weeks and thought part of my answer must lie there.

As to Protestants - I can't lie about what we believe, and to soften things too much creates a lie. I appreciate those very quick things I can say that might offer something of an explanation, but not every question has a quick helpful explanation.

(I'm often thinking of how I am asked questions, sometimes in challenge, during the Church tours at the festival, so this is on my mind all the time.)

I fear that if one is determined to remain closed - and many are - they simply won't follow the path of understanding that makes sense of everything. I can only hope that God looks at their heart, which often is motivated by a desire to follow God fully as they understand Him, and not offend Him, as you say, and I hope He will have mercy in that even though it is misinformed, it is still a noble desire.

I recall the issue of God being offended is one I grappled with early on (as an inquirer), in regards to honoring the Saints in general. It wasn't God's nature in terms of being impassible that made a difference for me (I'm still working on understanding that, actually), but the simple understanding of a family formed in love - healthy persons do not take offense at love and honor shared among beloved family members. That and understanding what worship actually is. Ah, such blurred lines where they shouldn't be in my past, as well as hard distinctions in some other places where they don't belong.

Anyway - thank you for your replies.

I can certainly empathize with A4C, and hopefully we can continue to progress in our understanding.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The hymns and prayers also need to be understood in the context of the innumerable times Panagia has literally stepped in to save us throughout the history of the Church. It is quite evident that she has aligned her will completely with Christ's and involves herself heavily in the salvation of God's people. There are many, many miracle working icons of Panagia, and if you recall the colors used for her robes and Christ's in Orthodox icons, Christ wears red or purple underneath with blue over the top signifying His divinity clothed in our humanity, whereas with Panagia she wears blue underneath with red or purple over the top signifying her humanity is now clothed in Christ's divinity. This of course will be the outcome for all who are found at Christ's right hand, "God became man so that man might become god", but the Church has declared that it is already the reality for the Mother of God. .
The question I ask now is if Panagia has indeed been clothed in Christ's divinity, would she not now be able to do by Grace what God does by nature?

From the many times she has stepped in, I suspect the answer is yes.

Thank you, Prodromos. I missed seeing this until I replied to True. Yes, this is along the lines of what has been coming together for me, but I very much appreciate the way you express it and add to what I've been moving toward.

Some months back (maybe longer) I became more aware of the times Panagia has protected Christians in various situations. I've kept that in my mind, as a big part of the answer I'm looking for, as well.

Thank you for pulling that together with her already undergoing theosis in heaven (if I'm saying that correctly).

I'm not sure if there are more pieces to the puzzle I'm working with (except in some cases the actual original language), but these two together help to explain a lot. Thank you very much.

I will keep this in prayer.

Thanks again.

And thanks to A4C for asking a question I wish I had, but I'm SO glad you did.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Well as I see it the purpose of Mariology and a intimate relationship with her as our beloved spiritual mother is to give us her children a sense of mothership into the faith.
She is there for us to strenghten our faith when we stumble, she is there to wipe tears off of our face when we`re suffering for our faith or in life in general.
She is in many ways the feminine aspect and expression of our faith, she`s there with her warmth, she`s there for us to approach whenever we`ve sinned and feel to unworthy of approaching Christ directely.

Her interseccion is there for the benefit of our relationship with Christ and as a guidance to the salvation of mankind.
If she fails to fulfill these prescribed roles one should abstain form venerating her and praying to her as her solemn purpose is to lead souls to heaven.

Its as unlike Mother Mary as its possible to come to face her as a obstacle in faith.
Mary serve a purpose only when she fulfill her co-redemrix role and if not one might be called towards other spiritual exercises and fruits of the spirit.