Prayers for the dead

[RileyG]

What are your thoughts on prayers for the dead and how it reales to the afterlife?

 

[wendykvw]

Essential. Prayer For The Holy Souls – St. Faustina – My Catholic Prayers

 

[RileyG]

I agree. It's essential.

 

[eleos1954]

What are your thoughts on prayers for the dead and how it reales to the afterlife?

1 first death

Ecclesiastes 9:5

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psalm 115:17

The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.

 

[fhansen]

What are your thoughts on prayers for the dead and how it reales to the afterlife?

As a belief and practice of the Jews and the early church it shows that God may have us in a merciful transitional state of final purification prior to direct presence with Him. This is because only the pure of heart, with no distractions to lesser things before Him first above all else, are even capable of seeing God.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Lutherans do include prayers for the dead in our Funeral rites; does it affect the outcome of the immortal soul of departed? No.

Our Funeral rites almost always contain the same prayer as is found in the Catholic and Anglican traditions, the "Requiem" asking that God grant them and all the faithful departed eternal rest etc...

There are other prayers in the commendation, the committal and the blessing of the grave where we ask that God keep the remains safe until the resurrection.

Why?, some might ask if the prayers have no influence on the outcome?
Main reason is that these prayers are, for us, a confession of faith, and reinforcement of the promises of the Gospel regarding Christ's victory over death by His death for us.

1 first death

Ecclesiastes 9:5

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psalm 115:17

The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.

So this is not exactly what The Revelation of St. John shows us. What you are quoting above is under the old covenant; after Christs sacrifice, and assentation things are different; the dead can speak, but eagerly await the resurrection; they keep asking "how long".

As we confess in the preface to the Eucharistic celebration derived directly from Scripture:

Therefore with angels and archangels and with all the company of heaven we laud and magnify Your glorious name, evermore praising You and saying... (The Sanctus)​

 

[RileyG]

As a belief and practice of the Jews and the early church it shows that God may have us in a merciful transitional state of final purification prior to direct presence with Him. This is because only the pure of heart, with no distractions to lesser things before Him first above all else, are even capable of seeing God.

I agree

 

[RileyG]

Lutherans do include prayers for the dead in our Funeral rites; does it affect the outcome of the immortal soul of departed? No.

Our Funeral rites almost always contain the same prayer as is found in the Catholic and Anglican traditions, the "Requiem" asking that God grant them and all the faithful departed eternal rest etc...

There are other prayers in the commendation, the committal and the blessing of the grave where we ask that God keep the remains safe until the resurrection.

Why?, some might ask if the prayers have no influence on the outcome?
Main reason is that these prayers are, for us, a confession of faith, and reinforcement of the promises of the Gospel regarding Christ's victory over death by His death for us.




So this is not exactly what The Revelation of St. John shows us. What you are quoting above is under the old covenant; after Christs sacrifice, and assentation things are different; the dead can speak, but eagerly await the resurrection; they keep asking "how long".

As we confess in the preface to the Eucharistic celebration derived directly from Scripture:

Therefore with angels and archangels and with all the company of heaven we laud and magnify Your glorious name, evermore praising You and saying... (The Sanctus)​

Thanks for the info!

 

[The Liturgist]

Lutherans do include prayers for the dead in our Funeral rites; does it affect the outcome of the immortal soul of departed? No.

Our Funeral rites almost always contain the same prayer as is found in the Catholic and Anglican traditions, the "Requiem" asking that God grant them and all the faithful departed eternal rest etc...

There are other prayers in the commendation, the committal and the blessing of the grave where we ask that God keep the remains safe until the resurrection.

Why?, some might ask if the prayers have no influence on the outcome?
Main reason is that these prayers are, for us, a confession of faith, and reinforcement of the promises of the Gospel regarding Christ's victory over death by His death for us.




So this is not exactly what The Revelation of St. John shows us. What you are quoting above is under the old covenant; after Christs sacrifice, and assentation things are different; the dead can speak, but eagerly await the resurrection; they keep asking "how long".

As we confess in the preface to the Eucharistic celebration derived directly from Scripture:

Therefore with angels and archangels and with all the company of heaven we laud and magnify Your glorious name, evermore praising You and saying... (The Sanctus)​

Good to see you Mark.

I myself subscribe to the Orthodox view which we see echoed in the writings of many Church Fathers that these prayers can have a positive effect on the condition of the souls of the deceased and may positively impact their disposition at the last judgement, and I pray to the saints, especially the Theotokos, for this reason.

Speaking of intercessory prayer, albeit in this case for the living, I have a horribly upset stomach and am unable to liturgize this morning, and am very sad, and request prayers for my healing.

 

[The Liturgist]

Welcome to Traditional Theology! Please be sure to read the Statement of Purpose for this forum, which is linked to on the Traditional Theology page.

I have enjoyed conversing with you elsewhere on CF.com and I do hope you might join us to learn about the interesting Traditional churches and their Theology.

 

[The Liturgist]

Lutherans do include prayers for the dead in our Funeral rites; does it affect the outcome of the immortal soul of departed? No.

Our Funeral rites almost always contain the same prayer as is found in the Catholic and Anglican traditions, the "Requiem" asking that God grant them and all the faithful departed eternal rest etc...

There are other prayers in the commendation, the committal and the blessing of the grave where we ask that God keep the remains safe until the resurrection.

Why?, some might ask if the prayers have no influence on the outcome?
Main reason is that these prayers are, for us, a confession of faith, and reinforcement of the promises of the Gospel regarding Christ's victory over death by His death for us.




So this is not exactly what The Revelation of St. John shows us. What you are quoting above is under the old covenant; after Christs sacrifice, and assentation things are different; the dead can speak, but eagerly await the resurrection; they keep asking "how long".

As we confess in the preface to the Eucharistic celebration derived directly from Scripture:

Therefore with angels and archangels and with all the company of heaven we laud and magnify Your glorious name, evermore praising You and saying... (The Sanctus)​

Oh by the way, the rationale you provide is similiar to that of many Anglicans, including many of those who identify as High Church but not full-on Anglo Catholics. Indeed our friend @Paidiske answered a question on this same subject with an answer that seemed to me at least very similar to yours.

I believe there are some low church Anglicans not in communion with Lambeth Palace, like the Reformed Episcopal Church, which dates from the 19th century but joined ACNA as a member entity, who have omitted the prayers in question.

 

[eleos1954]

Welcome to Traditional Theology! Please be sure to read the Statement of Purpose for this forum, which is linked to on the Traditional Theology page.

I have enjoyed conversing with you elsewhere on CF.com and I do hope you might join us to learn about the interesting Traditional churches and their Theology.

noted ... didn't realize participation was exclusive ... thanks

 

[RileyG]

Good to see you Mark.

I myself subscribe to the Orthodox view which we see echoed in the writings of many Church Fathers that these prayers can have a positive effect on the condition of the souls of the deceased and may positively impact their disposition at the last judgement, and I pray to the saints, especially the Theotokos, for this reason.

Speaking of intercessory prayer, albeit in this case for the living, I have a horribly upset stomach and am unable to liturgize this morning, and am very sad, and request prayers for my healing.

Thanks for your response and may God restore you to full health and strength.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Good to see you Mark.

I myself subscribe to the Orthodox view which we see echoed in the writings of many Church Fathers that these prayers can have a positive effect on the condition of the souls of the deceased and may positively impact their disposition at the last judgement, and I pray to the saints, especially the Theotokos, for this reason.

Speaking of intercessory prayer, albeit in this case for the living, I have a horribly upset stomach and am unable to liturgize this morning, and am very sad, and request prayers for my healing.

I hope you are feeling better, but prayers are being offered!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Oh by the way, the rationale you provide is similiar to that of many Anglicans, including many of those who identify as High Church but not full-on Anglo Catholics. Indeed our friend @Paidiske answered a question on this same subject with an answer that seemed to me at least very similar to yours.

I believe there are some low church Anglicans not in communion with Lambeth Palace, like the Reformed Episcopal Church, which dates from the 19th century but joined ACNA as a member entity, who have omitted the prayers in question.

At the risk of generalizing... When the ACNA formed, it was originally viewed by many of us conservative traditional Christians as a positive corrective step, even a "reset" or at least a wake-up call for Anglicanism.

Such does not seem to be the case. To me, it seems that in the interest of "strength in numbers" compromises are being made, and it is becoming a splinter group made up of splinter groups.

At one point both the LCMS and LCC were both indecently in dialogue with the ACN; at that time the two big issues remained that precluded fellowship; Female clergy and Eucharistic theology. Maybe minor issues for outsiders looking in, but from the POV of Confessional Lutheran theology, these are a big deal.

Funeral practices were not an issue at that time; it looks like it may be now.

 

[PloverWing]

At one point both the LCMS and LCC were both indecently in dialogue with the ACN; at that time the two big issues remained that precluded fellowship; Female clergy and Eucharistic theology.

I didn't know that Eucharistic theology was a point of disagreement between the ACNA and LCMS -- or, indeed, between Anglicans and Lutherans generally. Can you elaborate on where the major disagreement is?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I didn't know that Eucharistic theology was a point of disagreement between the ACNA and LCMS -- or, indeed, between Anglicans and Lutherans generally. Can you elaborate on where the major disagreement is?

The big issue is Receptionism which has lead the Anglican Church to practice open communion.
Receptionism - Wikipedia.

Confessional Lutherans accept that Christ's body and blood are always present in, with and under the bread and wine, and are therefore consumed by those without faith that receive the Eucharist.

 

[fhansen]

deleted post

 

[PloverWing]

The big issue is Receptionism which has lead the Anglican Church to practice open communion.
Receptionism - Wikipedia.

Confessional Lutherans accept that Christ's body and blood are always present in, with and under the bread and wine, and are therefore consumed by those without faith that receive the Eucharist.

Ah, okay, I had forgotten that some Lutherans practice closed communion. Closed vs open communion is a significant difference.

I'll note that the theological reasoning behind the practices may be different from what you've described. My support for open communion comes in part from my belief that God is present in the Eucharist whether the recipient believes in that Presence or not -- which seems pretty close to what you've described as the Lutheran position. But our churches do disagree about the next step from there, whether it's appropriate for someone without an understanding of the Real Presence to receive communion. So, thanks for the clarification.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Ah, okay, I had forgotten that some Lutherans practice closed communion. Closed vs open communion is a significant difference.

I'll note that the theological reasoning behind the practices may be different from what you've described. My support for open communion comes in part from my belief that God is present in the Eucharist whether the recipient believes in that Presence or not -- which seems pretty close to what you've described as the Lutheran position. But our churches do disagree about the next step from there, whether it's appropriate for someone without an understanding of the Real Presence to receive communion. So, thanks for the clarification.

While this view is in keeping with the confessional Lutheran position, this is precisely the reason why we practice closed Communion; Scripture cautions and admonishes us regarding the dangers of receiving in an unworthy manner. Scripture treats this as very serious indeed; we are to protect those who don't understand the real presence and the means of grace that are conveyed in the Sacrament.