Prayers for the dead

The Liturgist

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There were, at the time the BOC was compiled, and still remain two camps within the Churches that nominally refer to themselves as Lutheran. The Confessional Lutherans, and the liberal Lutherans. The confessions used the term "Crypto-Calvinists; keeping in mind that there are some individuals in both camps that can lean one direction more than others.

The Confessional Churches tend to be the least legalistic about these things, while the more liberal churches tend to be the most legalistic.

Now, having said that, we have very "fundamentalist reformed minded" persons in my congregation. They are not at all concerned about "breaking rules" but more so, about being "too Catholic". I think in most cases that may indeed be the case. Legalistic persons in an otherwise "confessionally orthodox" congregation are the ones that will fight every Sunday communion; get upset when Pastor genuflects at the consecration; get extra upset when the assisting elder/deacon (we normally wear a black cassock) puts on a white cotta for high festivals, and Pastor puts on a Causable. They are the same ones who want a happy-clappy service, and despise a sung liturgy. They also don't like the pastor communing first, then consuming the left-over elements after the distribution... they claim it is wrong for the Pastor to commune twice.

We seem to have more than our share of these in our congregation, but based on past experience, we are better off than most.

BTW, it the participate in our Lutheran Service Book Service of Christian Burial, they do pray for the dead whether they realize it or not.

Looks good on them. LOL.

We still get away with more than they think we should; these images are from our past Easter Service, I am the guy with the candle:

View attachment 320627

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It’s a pity you have to struggle with that. It almost feels like LCMS/LCC should seek to separate into low church and high church elements without causing a schism, if such a thing is possible. We had also talked about the possible desirability of bishops if I recall. I would argue however that the LCMS has been an example of a successful Congregational polity overall, but Lutheranism also did enjoy a great success where bishops were retained, at least for a time, particularly in Sweden, until bishops became agents for promoting Modernist, Liberal theology which is not traditional. And conversely some Congregational churches have been less fortunate. It seems to depend on the prevailing ideologies within the denomination, perhaps moreso than with Episcopal polities.
 
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Wayne Gabler

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What are your thoughts on prayers for the dead and how it reales to the afterlife?
Sins are removed as soon as you die. Believers that die are part of the Re:20:4 resurrection list, all others are in the Re:20:5 list.

Ec:3:20:
All go unto one place;
all are of the dust,
and all turn to dust again.
Ec:12:7:
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ec:9:10:
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do,
do it with thy might;
for there is no work,
nor device,
nor knowledge,
nor wisdom,
in the grave,
whither thou goest.

Job:14:14-17:
If a man die,
shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.
Thou shalt call,
and I will answer thee:
thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
For now thou numberest my steps:
dost thou not watch over my sin?
My transgression is sealed up in a bag,
and thou sewest up mine iniquity.

1Pe:4:5-6:
Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead,
that they might be judged according to men in the flesh,
but live according to God in the spirit.
 
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Markie Boy

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Pastor and I and a portion of our Congregation are indeed justifiably unhappy about this arrangement. Pastor will still commune any of our members any time if it is requested.

Covid with the attendance restrictions gave us the opportunity to implement every Sunday Eucharist to accommodate everyone. We thought we had succeeded, now due to diminishing attendance and revenues, the congregation made us accommodate those who despise frequent communion. So far, at Vespers, there is 20% more people than at the Eucharistic Liturgy.

From Luther's Christian Questions and Answers: Luther’s Small Catechism by Dr. Martin Luther
19. What should admonish and encourage a Christian to receive the Sacrament frequently?
First, both the command and the promise of Christ the Lord. Second, his own pressing need, because of which the command, encouragement, and promise are given.
20. But what should you do if you are not aware of this need and have no hunger and thirst for the Sacrament?
To such a person no better advice can be given than this: first, he should touch his body to see if he still has flesh and blood. Then he should believe what the Scriptures say of it in Galatians 5 and Romans 7. Second, he should look around to see whether he is still in the world, and remember that there will be no lack of sin and trouble, as the Scriptures say in John 15–16 and in 1 John 2 and 5.​
Third, he will certainly have the devil also around him, who with his lying and murdering day and night will let him have no peace, within or without, as the Scriptures picture him in John 8 and 16; 1 Peter 5; Ephesians 6; and 2 Timothy 2.​
Note: These questions and answers are no child’s play, but are drawn up with great earnestness of purpose by the venerable and devout Dr. Luther for both young and old. Let each one pay attention and consider it a serious matter; for St. Paul writes to the Galatians in chapter six: “Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.”​

So I am currently without a church home, so I am not tied to any practice, but I lean traditional. But I'm not a fan of once a month communion or less.

So please help me - Why would anyone be put off by weekly communion?
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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So I am currently without a church home, so I am not tied to any practice, but I lean traditional. But I'm not a fan of once a month communion or less.

So please help me - Why would anyone be put off by weekly communion?
I don't get it either.

Despising the Eucharist comes from various manifestations of idolatry. Services are too long; they interfere with my sports-ball, golf, fishing, lunch etc. Or "if we have it every Sunday, it won't be special". Being deprived of God's grace makes it more special?

Had one at a nursing home service where I was assisting my pastor. Another Elder and our Organist came along to provide some music. When I was preparing the elements for Pastor, I asked them if they would be communing with us; their answer was no, we don't need it since we already communed in Church this morning. Pastor was on his "A" game and replied "I can only speak for myself but I need as much of God's grace as I can get". The following month, when asked again, their answer was a resounding "yes".
 
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BNR32FAN

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What are your thoughts on prayers for the dead and how it reales to the afterlife?
God being omniscient and omnipresent can take these prayers that were made after an individual died into consideration before or when they died.
 
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Wings like Eagles

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Do you believe that, since God is outside of time, our prayers for a soul(now deceased) could have been efficacious in the final moments of their life?

Yes - my prayers are especially for family members.
 
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RileyG

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God being omniscient and omnipresent can take these prayers that were made after an individual died into consideration before or when they died.
absolutely! Amen.
 
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The Liturgist

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I don't get it either.

Despising the Eucharist comes from various manifestations of idolatry. Services are too long; they interfere with my sports-ball, golf, fishing, lunch etc. Or "if we have it every Sunday, it won't be special". Being deprived of God's grace makes it more special?

Had one at a nursing home service where I was assisting my pastor. Another Elder and our Organist came along to provide some music. When I was preparing the elements for Pastor, I asked them if they would be communing with us; their answer was no, we don't need it since we already communed in Church this morning. Pastor was on his "A" game and replied "I can only speak for myself but I need as much of God's grace as I can get". The following month, when asked again, their answer was a resounding "yes".

Well, in Orthodoxy you are supposed to prepare for the Eucharist, fasting if able for about twelve hours before, and there is also in the Byzantine Rite a preparatory canon one is encouraged to say, and in the northern Slavonic and Romanian churches, confession before each time you partake is routine, with a minimum often being monthly confession. For those who are able to do it, it is extremely spiritually healthy, and the reason for it is the same reason the LCMS practices closed communion, to avoid partaking unworthily not discerning the body and blood of our Lord, what some theologians like Metropolitan Kallistos Ware call “casual communion” which we see some liberal Roman Catholic priests force on their parishioners by yelling at those who request, as is their canonical right, communion on the tongue rather than in the hand, or refuse communion because they were unable to prepare. However, all Orthodox churches, except perhaps the Armenian in the case of Lent, also want maximum frequency communion, and this is emphasized by the Liturgy of the Presanctified on the weekdays of Lent, which is combined with Vespers but usually served at the liturgical ninth hour (theoretically, 1500, but liturgical time does not have to correspond with actual time, for example, Vespers on Holy Thursday and Holy Saturday are served in the morning, which used to be true at least in the case of Holy Saturday of the Roman Rite until Pope Pius XII made radical changes to the Paschal Triduum, ending with the stroke of a pen a liturgical commonality that dated to Pops St. Gregory I and the late sixth century.

The Armenian church however takes the curious approach of having only the priest communicate during Lent and having the curtain over the bema closed at all times from the start of Lent until Palm Sunday, concealing both the priest and altar. Since they used to have a Presanctified Liturgy this was probably not an historical practice. That said Armenians have formed a pious preference for the current way things are done, so I would not advocate obliterating a tradition I estimate is at least 800 years old in order to restore a hypothetically older tradition which might have been limited to some regions (also, some aspects of the Byzantine liturgy, like not fasting in the third week before Lent, appear to have been codified around the time of the council of Trullo in response to Armenian liturgical practices, so there already was some variation, but then the Armenian and Byzantine churches reacted against each other while relations with the Copts and Syriacs improved for a time, resulting in an exchange of liturgical ideas; a reconciliation between the Eastern Orthodox and the Armenians happened early in the second millennium probably in response to the Roman Church exerting influence on the Armenian church, and this results in an interesting blend of Syriac, Byzantine and Latin influence with indigenous elements such as the distinctive church architecture: for example, Latin style pointed mitres but with Byzantine icons fitted to them, Syriac and Byzantine influences in the other vestments, and the use of the Byzantine synaxis (liturgy of the word, also called the liturgy of the catechumens, basically everything that happens before the Nicene Creed, the Kiss of Peace and the consecration of the Eucharist), and the reading of the Last Gospel, like at a traditional Latin Solemn High Mass (or Missa Cantata), which I believe some Lutheran churches do, and many Anglo Catholics read this as well (it being John 1:1-14, the traditional Gospel for Christmas Day or the First Sunday after Christmas in the West; the Eastern Orthodox read John 1:1-17 as the Gospel for the Paschal Divine Liturgy at about 1:30 AM on Easter Sunday; in the previous 90 minutes they will have read Mark 16:1-8 at Paschal Matins.
 
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PsaltiChrysostom

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I find it interesting how Catholic and Orthodox suggest fasting before Eucharist. Jesus started the practice at the Las Supper - in the middle of a meal basically - no fasting.
We fast so that the first thing we eat that day is the Body and Blood of Christ.
 
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The Liturgist

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I don't think it's a bad practice. I just don't think it's good to mandate things that were not mandated by Jesus. It's one of the reasons I left Rome - that train just went off the rails.

The Orthodox Church is not Rome, and furthermore, there are many cases where fasting is not required. My confessor has not allowed me to fast since 2014, when symptoms of what turned out to be a hereditary illness which includes substantial problems with digestion became substantially worse. There are periods of time when fasting is theoretically prohibited, such as Bright Week, although some might not apply that to the Eucharistic fast.

But, most importantly, fasting before the Eucharist is scriptural: firstly, bread Is broken at the beginning of a Jewish meal, so your suggestion he did it in the middle of the meal is entirely unsupported; no Scripture says that the disciples had already written, and if you observed Jews eat their traditional meal on the eve of Sabbath, it begins with the breaking of bread (delicious Challah bread in the Ashkenazi tradition, except when unleavened bread is required). Wine follows, and then meat or dairy courses. And the Berakot blessings from which the Eucharistic liturgies of the Christian church were derived (this being especially evident in the ancient Liturgy of Addai and Mari, used by the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East, the Chaldean Catholic Church, and the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church), which has seven sections, like the Berakot prayers, and is one of the two oldest known liturgies, the other being the ancient liturgy of Alexandria in Egypt, known in its minor variants as the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark, the Divine Liturgy of St. Cyril and the Divine Liturgy of St. Serapian of Thmuis, which is also the oldest attested liturgy, with the Strasbourg Papyrus dating from the second century, and it also closely follows the Berakot pattern, and is regularly used by the Coptic Orthodox and occasionally by the Eastern Orthodox).

Secondly, and more importantly, while our Lord said His disciples did not fast while He was with them, He did say they would fast after He had gone. And fasting has thus been established as a continual practice of the Christian Church since the very beginning.

Furthermore, all evidence indicates that pre-Eucharistic fasting has always been the norm throughout the history of the Early Church, except perhaps during Bright Week (the week starting with Easter Sunday, or Pascha as we call it in Orthodoxy, and St. Thomas Sunday, or Low Sunday, the first Sunday after Easter, when all Christian churches historically read the resurrection narrative from the Gospel of John where St. Thomas physically contacts the wounds of our Lord and exclaims “My Lord and my God!”

Now, I don’t care if you fast or not, but I recommend you do so if you can, and otherwise engage in prayer to prepare yourself for the Eucharist, lest you partake unworthily, not discerning the Body and Blood of our Lord.

However, I do object you taking what is an ancient and pious tradition, which is fully scripturally supported and also consistent with everything we know about Jewish culture before, during and after the Second Temple period, and twisting it around in order to score points at the Catholic Church and “the Orthodox.” While ignoring the fact that there are two different Orthodox communions, the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox, which while closely related and in many respects similar, have been separated by an unfortunate schism since the year 451 AD, so more than 75% of the time since the Incarnation (although I hope, God willing, the schism will soon end, and there are signs of this, like the 1991 ecumenical agreement between the Eastern Orthodox Antiochian Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Syriac Orthodox Church, and a similiar agreement between the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria and the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, and further bonding between these four churches due to Islamic persecution including terror attacks, and in Syria, the kidnapping of the Syriac and Antiochian Metropolitans of Aleppo in 2013, and attempted genocides of both churches by ISIS and the Al Qaeda affiliate Al-Nusra. And you also ignore the fact that many Protestants, including High Church Anglicans, also observe a pre-Eucharistic fast.

In addition, John Wesley sought to revive among Methodists the Patristic practice of fasting on both Wednesday and Friday, and if the Methodists in North America had followed his instruction, every Methodist church in the United States would gather on Wednesday and Friday to pray a modified version of the Litany from the Anglican Book of Common Prayer, which John Wesley adjusted for use in America, producing the Sunday Service Book for Use of the Methodists in North America.

Lastly I would point out that the Catholics and the Orthodox and the Assyrian and Ancient Church of the East, which also unlike most Protestant churches have Apostolic succession (the four Christian communions that existed before the Reformation in Western Europe began with the Waldensians were the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, the Roman Catholics, and the Church of the East, which was also the largest in the world in terms of geographic area, and probably membership, but represented the majority of the population only in India, on the island of Socotra in Yemen, and in parts of Mesopotamia and Persia, and it was the victim of a genocide initiated by the Muslim warlord Tamerlane, who is venerated as a national hero in Uzbekistan, that killed off all of its members outside of the region of the Fertile Crescent in greater Mesopotamia (now divided between Iraq, Iran and Syria), and those in Kerala and the Malabar Coast of India. Socotra was invaded by Muslims and the Christians who would not convert were killed, and the same fate occurred to all the Christians of Central Asia, China, Mongolia, and Tibet, where it seems probable the Buddhists were at the very least unwilling to defend the Christians - Buddhist persecution of Christians has happened, for example, the brutal murder of most Japanese Christians who had been evangelized by Portuguese Roman Catholics.

Indeed, the reason why for many centuries only the Dutch were allowed to trade with Japan, and were limited to the port of Yokohama, was the Dutch agreed not to try to convert the Japanese, and the Japanese did not even trust the Dutch that much, so limited their access to the port city. Meanwhile, the Roman Catholics attempted to convert the Chinese, but were unsuccessful, but the Orthodox managed to convert most of the Slavs, Siberians and a large percentage of Native Alaskans, and many Central Asians, even some Uzbekistans, during the time when Uzbekistan was part of the Russian Empire.

Speaking of martyrdom, In the 20th century, the majority of Christians to be killed were Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Assyrians, and Roman Catholics, due to the fact that predominantly Orthodox, Assyrian and Catholic regions either fell under the control of the atheist Soviet Union, or for a brief period the racist anti-Slavic Nazis, who killed many Catholics and Orthodox in Eastern Europe, and also Protestants, but except in the Baltic States, which have a Lutheran majority and an Orthodox minority, and which were conquered by the Soviet Union as a result of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact (previously they had been something of a haven for pious Russian Orthodox Christians), and after WWII, in Albania, where the population is about 60% Muslim and the rest are Orthodox or Roman Catholic, such as Mother Theresa, the dictator Enver Hoxha attempted to eliminate all religions, whether Sunni Muslim, Bektashi Sufis (who are nominally Shi’a Muslims), Roman Catholics, or Orthodox Christians. Indeed all but a hundred or so Christian priests were killed. Fortunately, many Albanians fled abroad, and Archbishop Fan Noli was received into the Orthodox Church in America, where he founded the Albanian Archdiocese, which kept Albanian Orthodoxy alive, and also wrote one of the first English language books containing the propers for most services throughout the years, the other being written by the Antiochian Fr. Seraphim Nasser (it remains in use, and is affectionately nicknamed “the Nasser Five Pounder” due its weight, although the book is an Octavo, rather than the larger Folio size, which probably makes it less expensive to print but also makes it a bit bulkier - I prefer folios, which is also what you get if you print a book on a computer printer, except for novels, where the risk of spoilers makes smaller page sizes such as those of an octavo, or better yet, a duodecimo, ideal.

At any rate, since the downfall of communism, persecution in the aftermath of communism has continued due to sectarian and ethnic conflicts engendered by the artificial borders drawn up by the communist regimes, with the worst persecution of Christians being the ethnic cleansing of Armenians by Azerbaijan, which receives substantial aid and support from Turkey; meanwhile Armenia receives very little aid, relatively speaking, because it is theoretically supposed to be a Russian ally, but in practice, the Russians failed to stop the 2020 invasion by the Azeris. This has been the most recent ethnic cleansing by Muslims, following the massive persecutions in the 2010s in Syria, Iraq and in 2012 in Egypt by the short lived government of the Muslim Brotherhood, which was thankfully overthrown by the Egyptian people, but Copts have endured continual terrorist attacks ever since. Also, due to a stupid Muslim law which is applied to everyone in Egypt, even Christians, adoption of children is forbidden, so if a Christian child becomes orphaned because his parents are killed in a terrorist attack, his only option is to live in an orphanage. Fortunately the Coptic Orthodox Church and the other Christians in Egypt, such as the Greek Orthodox and the Coptic Catholics, have excellent orphanages. In Ethiopia, the government is controlled by Christians, but some provinces have a Muslim majority, and there are areas in the country where violence against Christians is routine. in Ethiopia, the vast majority of Christians are Ethiopian Orthodox; and have also been martyred in the border region and while working in neighboring countries by ISIS and its allies, such as the deadly Kenyan Muslim Shiftas and the Somali terrorists known as Al-Shahaab.

There have been many Protestant martyrs as well, but the Catholics and especially the Orthodox and Assyrians have born the brunt of it. In the 1915 genocide Against the Christians of the Ottoman Empire, the majority of ethnic Armenians, several million people, were killed, including nearly all Armenian Catholics, who numbered several hundred thousand before the genocide, and We’re the largest Eastern Catholic Church, and since the genocide have been one of the smallest (they have a beautiful monastery in Venice, however). 95% of Syriac Orthodox and Assyrian Christians were killed. Of the Pontic Greeks, who were the majority of Greeks living in what is now Turkey, about two thirds were killed, and the rest were forced to emigrate to Greece as a result of the population exchange of 1920, resulting in an almost complete ethnic cleansing. This is why several important churches mentioned in the Bible, such as the churches at Ephesus, Smyrna, Laodicea and to a large extent even Antioch, no longer exist (there is still a cave in Antioch owned by the Syriac Orthodox Church where liturgies occasionally are celebrated, but the city does not have much in terms of a stable permanent Christian population; indeed even the historic Syriac Orthodox region of Tur Abdin in Turkey, one of the places along with Damascus, Bethlehem and Jerusalem, the Nineveh Plains, Tikrit and Baghdad, where most Syriac Orthodox have originated from, is now mostly depopulated; this area was until the genocide the home of the Patriarchate, but since that time the Patriarchate has been headquartered in Damascus, which is also home to the Antiochian Orthodox Patriarch.


When we add in the mostly Christian peasants in Ukraine and rural areas of Russia and other parts of the Soviet Union who starved under Stalin’s forced agricultural collectivization, we can say that Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, Oriental Orthodox and Lutherans (who coincidentally represent the largest, second largest and third largest ethnic groups in Ukraine), and Assyrians and Anglicans, who represent the largest Protestant church world wide and who have experienced horrible persecution in Pakistan, Bangladesh and even in India, from both Muslims and Hindus, and also from Muslims in various African countries, have accounted for the majority of martyrs in the past 150 years. Other Christian populations have also experienced martyrdom, such as members of the Hungarian Reformed Church, and its counterparts in Romania, and these deserve to be honored as well.

It is an Orthodox belief that anyone who dies confessing Christ is instantly saved and instantly are worthy of veneration as being holy, and this is also a Scriptural belief, since our Lord said “anyone who confesses me before men I shall confess before the Father.” Thus there is also a category of confessors, who are people who were tortured or mistreated for their faith in Christ; this group also includes those who died as a result of their torture or mistreatment, as opposed to martyrs, who died from an intentional effort to kill, such as beheading or crucifixion. Confessors also automatically are saved and are venerated as holy.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I find it interesting how Catholic and Orthodox suggest fasting before Eucharist. Jesus started the practice at the Las Supper - in the middle of a meal basically - no fasting.
Lutherans do not despise this practice either; it has been my practice for many, many years.
 
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The Liturgist

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Lutherans do not despise this practice either; it has been my practice for many, many years.

I assumed as much, considering that Lutherans and Anglo Catholics, although most Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox don’t realize it due to differences in terminology, along with the Roman Catholics who are liturgically traditionalist and follow closely the theology of Pope Benedict XVII and Pope John Paul II and some traditional Methodists like Epworth Chapel on the Green in Boise Idaho, represent, theologically, a collective Western Orthodox Church. For that matter I would argue that the Assyrian Church of the East, at least in its historic theology, has a Western counterpart in the form of Reformed Catholic parishes, basically the high church liturgical Calvinists. Of late the Assyrians have become much closer to the Eastern Orthodox.

Basically what ties us together are a set of beliefs surrounding Christology, such as an absolute rejection of Nestorianism and an emphasis on the hypostatic union of the human and divine natures in the person of Jesus Christ, who in Chalcedonian Christology has a human and a divine nature and in Oriental Orthodox Christology has a theanthropic nature from a human nature and a divine nature but in both cases, the hypostatic union is without change, confusion, division or separation, which is a phrase that appears in the Coptic Orthodox liturgy, and the hymn that some Eastern Orthodox attributed to Emperor Justinian, but which was probably written by St. Severus of Antioch, an Oriental Orthodox father, whose theopaschite views make him one of the two most important theologians in the Eastern Orthodox Church who is under an anathema, the other being Origen, although I believe the ecumenical arrangements between the Greek Orthodox Churches of Antioch and Alexandria and their Syriac Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox counterparts resulted in those anathemas being lifted between those churches, so presumably Mor Severus is also no longer anathema; interestingly the Oriental Orthodox as far as I am aware never anathematized Origen, and they also venerate St. Evagrius of Pontus, who is not venerated by the Eastern Orthodox due to alleged Origenist views (likewise the bishop Lucifer of Cagliari is only venerated as a saint in Sardinia, because of his Origenist views and the argument he had with St. Jerome).

I think the traditional faith shared by the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, the liturgically traditional Roman Catholics such as the Traditional Latin Mass communities, the conservative Catholics, and various Eastern Catholic Churches that are liturgically traditional, such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, the Syriac Catholic Church, the Coptic Catholic Church, and the Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church, the Old Catholics of the Union of Scranton, namely the Polish National Catholic Church and the Norwegian Catholic Church, who were kicked out of the Union of Utrecht for refusing to accept liberal postmodern theology driven by secular pressures,, the Evangelical Catholic Lutherans like my friends @Via Crucis and @MarkRohfrietsch and High Church Anglicans of the Anglo-Catholic form of churchmanship, as well as traditional liturgical Methodists such as Epworth Chapel on the Green in Boise, Idaho, and several other traditional churches, as well as the Assyrian Church of the East now that it has jettisoned most traces of Nestorius other than the recension of the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil bearing his name and the veneration of hymn as a confessor, is best expressed by a series of hymns and the Nicene Creed, which I will be posting in General Theology, and I will link that post to this thread.
 
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RileyG

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Lutherans do not despise this practice either; it has been my practice for many, many years.
Yes, it was my understanding some Lutherans even encourage it.
 
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I don't think it's a bad practice. I just don't think it's good to mandate things that were not mandated by Jesus. It's one of the reasons I left Rome - that train just went off the rails.
Matthew 9:15
 
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