Prayer - Is More Better?

[bèlla]

OB,

I prefer to ask for prayer from men and women gifted in intercession. They have a hunger for prayer and are more discriminating in its practice. Just as a child can write a mile long Christmas list; we can petition God in the same mindset.

Working with intercessors removes the personal element and focuses on the matter at hand. The greater issue so to speak. Not the fluff. The collective praying along these lines is beneficial in two ways:

• The individual is aware they’re not alone. That can relieve anxiety and bring comfort and peace.
• Intercessors are accustomed to addressing God with problems of varying severity. They want to help and they’re equipped to do so. That’s their job.

There are instances where one prayer suffices and others that require vigilance. That’s another reason I work with intercessors. Although it wasn’t mentioned in the OP it corroborates the benefit of having help.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

 

[Halbhh]

Prayer – Is More Better?

A common Christian practice is to pray to God seeking some form of assistance or support.

It’s also normal for Christians to ask other Christians to pray for God’s intercession on their behalf or on behalf of another person or cause. Christian Forums even has a specific Forum; the Prayer Wall; set aside for this purpose.

Looked at from the point of view of the original supplicant, I can understand that supporting prayers, from other Christians, would be a source of comfort and help promote a sense of Christian community.

Where I’m confused is whether or not additional prayers increase the likelihood that God will intercede.

Do more people praying for the same thing make it more likely that God will intercede?​

If the answer is ’No’ then supporting prayer would appear to be unnecessary from God’s point of view.

If the answer is ‘Yes’ then it raises the question of why God is more likely to respond to multiple prayers in support of one person’s request. If an all-knowing God understands the reason for a single supplicant’s prayer why would 10 supporting prayers make a difference?

OB

To first address a question about wording that came up on the first page, we do see over and over in scripture that God responds to prayers, even sometimes relenting from doing one thing He said He would do, because of prayer (people can ask if they want an example from the OT). Now, it's still possible for someone to say this isn't an 'intervention', but instead just God doing what He foresaw, but I think that's nitpicking about wording. Call it what you will, but it's God causing an outcome, and saying it's 'intervening' is one wording that communicates the fact that God is the One Who caused the outcome. I think God typically allows His own design of nature (physics, chemistry, etc.) to work on its own also without intervention usually -- for instance, the Earth orbits and rotates by physics, and God doesn't have to do anything to make that happen, having already done it long before in creating this physics -- so in my viewpoint, then He really is doing special interventions at times here for us, and He does a lot of them.

Ok, back to an OP question.

Christ said that when 2 or more believers agree on what they pray for it would certainly be granted:

Matthew 18:19 Again, I tell you truly that if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven.

Now, God does grant things prayed by just one person, as we well know (and very many of us have personally experienced first hand). But here this provision seems to be about things of some unusual character somehow. I don't claim to know what those boundaries are (which make more than 1 person asking better, aside from faith(!)), but commentaries are pointing to the prays of congregations ('where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name'). Prayers being granted rely on being prayed with faith we learn in Mark chapter 11 (and generally in the gospels), and being aligned to God's will, which is deep and not always understood. Still, many of us have had so many remarkable prayers answered where we prayed them alone, so it's quite clear that it's not that many praying are required necessarily. So, it could be that when more pray, that itself (others being willing to pray) already is an act of faith, so begins to have the faith needed, already.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So is that 'yes', 'no', 'maybe' or "I don't have a clue",
OB

A definite yes - Christian ministry is a Body of Christ function not an individual sport.

 

[Carl Emerson]

From Deut 32 - some find this principle applies to prayer...

29“Would that they were wise, that they understood this,
That they would discern their future!

30“How could one chase a thousand,
And two put ten thousand to flight,
Unless their Rock had sold them,
And the LORD had given them up?

31“Indeed their rock is not like our Rock,
Even our enemies themselves judge this.

Sorry about another scripture but my whole life has been rebuilt on it...

 

[Occams Barber]

OB,

I prefer to ask for prayer from men and women gifted in intercession. They have a hunger for prayer and are more discriminating in its practice. Just as a child can write a mile long Christmas list; we can petition God in the same mindset.

Working with intercessors removes the personal element and focuses on the matter at hand. The greater issue so to speak. Not the fluff. The collective praying along these lines is beneficial in two ways:

• The individual is aware they’re not alone. That can relieve anxiety and bring comfort and peace.
• Intercessors are accustomed to addressing God with problems of varying severity. They want to help and they’re equipped to do so. That’s their job.

There are instances where one prayer suffices and others that require vigilance. That’s another reason I work with intercessors. Although it wasn’t mentioned in the OP it corroborates the benefit of having help.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

There is a sense of "It's not what you know - it's who you know" - running through your post. Your suggestion that we should conscript 'professional' intercessors to act on our behalf comes across as a little elitist. Are those of you with the better intercessors acting on your behalf more likely to attract God's sympathy?

What about ordinary men and women who lack ready access to these gifted intercessors? Are they incapable of prayer without 'fluff'. Is God not capable of seeing through the 'fluff' where it exists?

The normal request for prayer support is usually from ordinary people to ordinary people (visit the Prayer Wall for examples). While the idea of co-opting qualified others to intercede on our behalf has some echoes in Catholic practice, by and large it doesn't seem to be a Christian habit.

I accept that collective prayer can bring comfort and relieve anxiety. I said as much in the OP. My question was about the relative impact of one person praying vs many, on God's response.

OB

 

[bèlla]

There is a sense of "It's not what you know - it's who you know" - running through your post. Your suggestion that we should conscript 'professional' intercessors to act on our behalf comes across as a little elitist.

OB,

I wasn’t speaking on behalf of others. I shared my personal approach. If you believe securing assistance from individuals skilled in prayer is elitist, I assume the same holds true in other areas of concern like health, education, etc. There is little need for specialists of any sort.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

 

[Occams Barber]

Christ said that when 2 or more believers agree on what they pray for it would certainly be granted:

Matthew 18:19 Again, I tell you truly that if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven.

Now, God does grant things prayed by just one person, as we well know (and very many of us have personally experienced first hand). But here this provision seems to be about things of some unusual character somehow. I don't claim to know what those boundaries are (which make more than 1 person asking better, aside from faith(!)), but commentaries are pointing to the prays of congregations ('where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name'). Prayers being granted rely on being prayed with faith we learn in Mark chapter 11 (and generally in the gospels), and being aligned to God's will, which is deep and not always understood. Still, many of us have had so many remarkable prayers answered where we prayed them alone, so it's quite clear that it's not that many praying are required necessarily. So, it could be that when more pray, that itself (others being willing to pray) already is an act of faith, so begins to have the faith needed, already.

Halbhh

I have to be honest. I found this answer to be a little vague. I got the sense that many people praying can be better but this may mainly apply to 'things of some unusual character' - or maybe not.

Still, your answer is the nearest anyone has come to admitting they weren't really sure, so I give kudos for honesty.

OB

 

[Occams Barber]

OB,

I wasn’t speaking on behalf of others. I shared my personal approach. If you believe securing assistance from individuals skilled in prayer is elitist, I assume the same holds true in other areas of concern like health, education, etc. There is little need for specialists of any sort.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

If you can't see the difference between co-opting a professional prayer intercessor and employing a public relations consultant, then we are poles apart in our understanding.

OB

 

[Carl Emerson]

Your question is a nonsense...

The issue is not how many pray but what He wants to achieve through prayer.

One person with His anointing, faith and obedience, can move mountains.

Fifty people without His anointing, faith and obedience... well you can guess the answer.

We are taught to pray at all times 'in the Spirit' - this aligns with His will and requests are granted.

Prayer never was a numbers game but 40 praying in the Spirit will move more mountains than 4.

 

[Sketcher]

Prayer – Is More Better?

A common Christian practice is to pray to God seeking some form of assistance or support.

It’s also normal for Christians to ask other Christians to pray for God’s intercession on their behalf or on behalf of another person or cause. Christian Forums even has a specific Forum; the Prayer Wall; set aside for this purpose.

Looked at from the point of view of the original supplicant, I can understand that supporting prayers, from other Christians, would be a source of comfort and help promote a sense of Christian community.

Where I’m confused is whether or not additional prayers increase the likelihood that God will intercede.

Do more people praying for the same thing make it more likely that God will intercede?​

If the answer is ’No’ then supporting prayer would appear to be unnecessary from God’s point of view.

If the answer is ‘Yes’ then it raises the question of why God is more likely to respond to multiple prayers in support of one person’s request. If an all-knowing God understands the reason for a single supplicant’s prayer why would 10 supporting prayers make a difference?

Prayer is way that God's people can participate with God in what he intends to do. The "yes" or "no" question you ask misses the value of prayer.

 

[bèlla]

If you can't see the difference between co-opting a professional prayer intercessor and employing a public relations consultant, then we are poles apart in our understanding.

OB,

It is your consensus that working with gifted intercessors is elitist or co-opting them for personal gain. You went further by insinuating the access is unfair. When intercessors are available at most churches and ministries.

Your personal beliefs concerning equal access have impeded your ability to recognize my contribution for what it was. We are poles apart because it isn’t a question of haves and have nots. You made it so.

Nevertheless, @Carl Emerson echoed the same in message 49.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

 

[Occams Barber]

Prayer never was a numbers game but 40 praying in the Spirit will move more mountains than 4.

Assuming the 4 are also "praying in the spirit" - does that mean more is better?

OB

 

[Occams Barber]

Prayer is way that God's people can participate with God in what he intends to do. The "yes" or "no" question you ask misses the value of prayer.

In post 22 I acknowledged that prayer can have many different purposes.

I am aware that prayer is a communication and that the purpose of prayer can cover a range of things like worship, confession, thanks, petitioning or intercession on behalf of another.

Among these purposes are petitioning (asking for...) and prayers supporting the initial supplicant.
The question I'm asking couldn't be more simple:

Do more people praying for the same thing make it more likely that God will intercede?
​

"Prayer is way that God's people can participate with God in what he intends to do" is not an answer to that question.

OB

 

[Carl Emerson]

Assuming the 4 are also "praying in the spirit" - does that mean more is better?

OB

No it means 40 were appointed.

 

[zippy2006]

Do more people praying for the same thing make it more likely that God will intercede?

Yes. Duh.

I'll go ahead and post an answer to the counterargument you won't commit to:

Edit: I should perhaps try to elaborate your quasi-argument:

If an all-knowing God understands the reason for a single supplicant’s prayer why would 10 supporting prayers make a difference?

You are apparently saying that God listens to an impetration and decides whether it is based in a good reason or a bad reason. If it is based in a good reason he grants the request. If it is based in a bad reason he denies the request. In neither case would an additional voice, repeating the same request on the basis of the same reason, change the outcome of God's assessment. To say otherwise would be to commit something like an argumentum ad populum fallacy.

Is that right? Hopefully I'm not committing a strawman, but I don't have much to go on.

There are a number of different ways that one could answer your objection. In the first place I'm not very comfortable with your premise that prayer is an attempt to convince or persuade God to do something. In any case, even granting that premise, why think that multiple different intercessory prayers for the same end will have the same reasoning? What's to prevent additional persons from praying for the same thing for different or slightly different reasons? If the same petition is based on multiple different reasons then clearly there would be a greater chance that a rational analysis would accept the petition.

Further, still holding to your unorthodox premise, what's to prevent God from taking a cumulative effect into account? Aren't 20 people with slightly different, mediocre "reasons", more compelling than one person with a mediocre reason? Why shouldn't communal desire be a ground for answering a prayer?

 

[TexFire316]

When there are more of us praying with one purpose, He hears. He still hears me solo, don't ask me how it works, I don't know. But it does, He said so.

 

[Occams Barber]

There are a number of different ways that one could answer your objection. In the first place I'm not very comfortable with your premise that prayer is an attempt to convince or persuade God to do something.

Back in post #22 I said this:
I am aware that prayer is a communication and that the purpose of prayer can cover a range of things like worship, confession, thanks, petitioning or intercession on behalf of another.

'Petitioning' is the act of requesting God's help/intercession/intervention and it's one of a number of reasons for prayer. You can't seriously tell me that this doesn't happen. A quick trip to the Prayer Wall will supply examples.

In any case, even granting that premise, why think that multiple different intercessory prayers for the same end will have the same reasoning? What's to prevent additional persons from praying for the same thing for different or slightly different reasons? If the same petition is based on multiple different reasons then clearly there would be a greater chance that a rational analysis would accept the petition.

Further, still holding to your unorthodox premise, what's to prevent God from taking a cumulative effect into account? Aren't 20 people with slightly different, mediocre "reasons", more compelling than one person with a mediocre reason? Why shouldn't communal desire be a ground for answering a prayer?

Your argument is not unlike Bella's in post #41, but without the elitist overtones. It suggests that God needs the help of a translator/explainer if he is to really understand the request. It also implies that the less articulate among us are less likely to succeed since we can't explain ourselves that well. Bella employed 'professional' intercessors - you're going with multiple explainers. In both cases the assumption is that God may need more than simple one-on-one prayer to be convinced or to understand the issue. It appears to significantly underestimate God's ability and turn Him into a fallible human. Why is an all-knowing God more likely to be influenced by a 'cumulative effect'.

If more is better, is ten better than five or twenty better than ten? Is there a sliding scale? Do bigger requests require more prayers in support? These questions are rhetorical. I only ask them to demonstrate how awkward the 'more is better' argument becomes when taken to it's logical extreme.

OB

 

[Halbhh]

Halbhh

I have to be honest. I found this answer to be a little vague. I got the sense that many people praying can be better but this may mainly apply to 'things of some unusual character' - or maybe not.

Still, your answer is the nearest anyone has come to admitting they weren't really sure, so I give kudos for honesty.

OB

A leap of faith is often a courageous act.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Back in post #22 I said this:
I am aware that prayer is a communication and that the purpose of prayer can cover a range of things like worship, confession, thanks, petitioning or intercession on behalf of another.

'Petitioning' is the act of requesting God's help/intercession/intervention and it's one of a number of reasons for prayer. You can't seriously tell me that this doesn't happen. A quick trip to the Prayer Wall will supply examples.


Your argument is not unlike Bella's in post #41, but without the elitist overtones. It suggests that God needs the help of a translator/explainer if he is to really understand the request. It also implies that the less articulate among us are less likely to succeed since we can't explain ourselves that well. Bella employed 'professional' intercessors - you're going with multiple explainers. In both cases the assumption is that God may need more than simple one-on-one prayer to be convinced or to understand the issue. It appears to significantly underestimate God's ability and turn Him into a fallible human. Why is an all-knowing God more likely to be influenced by a 'cumulative effect'.

If more is better, is ten better than five or twenty better than ten? Is there a sliding scale? Do bigger requests require more prayers in support? These questions are rhetorical. I only ask them to demonstrate how awkward the 'more is better' argument becomes when taken to it's logical extreme.

OB

That depends on whether you understand how prayer actually works...

Why should God be beholden to man's logic?

What on earth has logic got to do with prayer at all?

This opening question is a nonsense and a complete waste of time.

Prayer is a big topic and deserves much more than such inane questioning.

Unless of course you are obsessed with knowing how many angels you can fit on the end of a pin... then I can understand your urgency for an answer.

Between Prayer and answered prayer are a multitude of factors that do not succumb to puny logic.

You would learn a heap more by praying to God - but wait... "those who come to Him must believe that He exists, and is a rewarder of those who seek Him..."

Mmmm... might not work for you...

 

[Occams Barber]

That depends on whether you understand how prayer actually works...

Why should God be beholden to man's logic?

What on earth has logic got to do with prayer at all?

This opening question is a nonsense and a complete waste of time.

Prayer is a big topic and deserves much more than such inane questioning.

Unless of course you are obsessed with knowing how many angels you can fit on the end of a pin... then I can understand your urgency for an answer.

Between Prayer and answered prayer are a multitude of factors that do not succumb to puny logic.

You would learn a heap more by praying to God - but wait... "those who come to Him must believe that He exists, and is a rewarder of those who seek Him..."

Mmmm... might not work for you...

This isn't an argument Carl.

It's a little outburst.

My arguments aren't based on non-belief. I've taken pains to argue this 'as if' God were a real entity. I even went to the point of seeing if my views were a reasonable fit assuming I was a theoretical Christian (don't get excited Carl). With a small nip and tuck it worked. I even managed to clean up a minor inconsistency in the process.

OB