Prayer - Is More Better?

[Occams Barber]

Prayer – Is More Better?

A common Christian practice is to pray to God seeking some form of assistance or support.

It’s also normal for Christians to ask other Christians to pray for God’s intercession on their behalf or on behalf of another person or cause. Christian Forums even has a specific Forum; the Prayer Wall; set aside for this purpose.

Looked at from the point of view of the original supplicant, I can understand that supporting prayers, from other Christians, would be a source of comfort and help promote a sense of Christian community.

Where I’m confused is whether or not additional prayers increase the likelihood that God will intercede.

Do more people praying for the same thing make it more likely that God will intercede?​

If the answer is ’No’ then supporting prayer would appear to be unnecessary from God’s point of view.

If the answer is ‘Yes’ then it raises the question of why God is more likely to respond to multiple prayers in support of one person’s request. If an all-knowing God understands the reason for a single supplicant’s prayer why would 10 supporting prayers make a difference?

OB

 

[SkyWriting]

If the answer is ’No’ then supporting prayer would appear to be unnecessary from God’s point of view.If the answer is ‘Yes’ then it raises the question of why God is more likely to respond to multiple prayers in support of one person’s request. If an all-knowing God understands the reason for a single supplicant’s prayer why would 10 supporting prayers make a difference?OB

God approves of any prayer for any reason. God does not ever intervene, but He does sometimes allow for insight into what His plans are by way of assurances like "I Got This thought through already, and thanks for your input!"

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Prayer is not a magic spell, or a complaint to management, or a redress. It is a communication, a conversation, a communion with God. Prayers commonly have some formula of Thy will be done, so looking for an 'unnecessary' prayer or so, is missing the point entirely. It is a form of worship.

 

[Occams Barber]

God never intercedes? I understood that the whole point of prayer was to ask for His help.
I'm not sure if your answer is consistent with traditional Christian views on the power of prayer.

OB

 

[Occams Barber]

Prayer is not a magic spell, or a complaint to management, or a redress. It is a communication, a conversation, a communion with God. Prayers commonly have some formula of Thy will be done, so looking for an 'unnecessary' prayer or so, is missing the point entirely. It is a form of worship.

Whatever you want to call it, it still appears to be a request for intercession. A quick look at the nature of the requests on the Prayer Wall will make this obvious. Are they all wrong in hoping for God's help?

Your answer also avoids the issue of the point of multiple prayer.

OB

 

[Richard T]

You have a great question, one I have considered too before. There is strength in numbers. Being in unity, and having the same intensity may also help the outcome. Prayer though is not witchcraft in which you can force God to do something, so sometimes, the numbers would not make a difference if it is not within His will. Also, the person with the request may have to meet some conditions in order to receive something from God. It might require personal faith only from that person, it may require that the person forgive others, or repent from some sin. Thus, the main thing is for the petitioner to pray and hear from God.
Ecclesiastes 4:9-12 (KJV)
9 Two are better than one; because they have a good reward for their labour.
10 For if they fall, the one will lift up his fellow: but woe to him that is alone when he falleth; for he hath not another to help him up.
11 Again, if two lie together, then they have heat: but how can one be warm alone?
12 And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.
Leviticus 26:8 (KJV)
8 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.

 

[zippy2006]

If the answer is ‘Yes’ then it raises the question of why God is more likely to respond to multiple prayers in support of one person’s request. If an all-knowing God understands the reason for a single supplicant’s prayer why would 10 supporting prayers make a difference?

You seem to be claiming that multiplying prayers, whether in oneself or through others, is in vain, but you give no argument for your claim. Since you created the thread the onus is apparently on you to provide some reason for why multiplying prayers is in vain. Why wouldn't God ascribe more weight to more voices? Your question won't be intelligible until we understand why you've asked it.

(That said, your OP is well-written and well-researched. Its thrust just lacks rationale.)

Edit: I should perhaps try to elaborate your quasi-argument:

If an all-knowing God understands the reason for a single supplicant’s prayer why would 10 supporting prayers make a difference?

You are apparently saying that God listens to an impetration and decides whether it is based in a good reason or a bad reason. If it is based in a good reason he grants the request. If it is based in a bad reason he denies the request. In neither case would an additional voice, repeating the same request on the basis of the same reason, change the outcome of God's assessment. To say otherwise would be to commit something like an argumentum ad populum fallacy.

Is that right? Hopefully I'm not committing a strawman, but I don't have much to go on.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

God never intercedes? I understood that the whole point of prayer was to ask for His help.
I'm not sure if your answer is consistent with traditional Christian views on the power of prayer.

OB

CS Lewis said: I suppose the solution lies in pointing out that the efficacy of prayer is, at any rate no more of a problem then the efficacy of all human acts. i.e. if you say “It is useless to pray because Providence already knows what is best and will certainly do it”, then why is it not equally useless (and for the same reason) to try to alter the course of events in any way whatever — to ask for the salt or book your seat in a train?

Whatever you want to call it, it still appears to be a request for intercession. A quick look at the nature of the requests on the Prayer Wall will make this obvious. Are they all wrong in hoping for God's help?

Your answer also avoids the issue of the point of multiple prayer.

OB

I don't see how I am avoiding anything. Worship is a communal activity. I just consider this a non-issue, from lack of understanding of prayer. It is intercessory, but even Jesus prayed to have this cup leave Him in Gethsemane. It is about the dynamic between God and worshipper, not a formula to alter reality - that is in fact what is usually condemned as magic by the Church.

 

[Carl Emerson]

2 Cron 7:
12Then the LORD appeared to Solomon at night and said to him, “I have heard your prayer and have chosen this place for Myself as a house of sacrifice. 13“If I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or if I command the locust to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among My people, 14and My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 15“Now My eyes will be open and My ears attentive to the prayer offered in this place.

Clearly God was promising to respond to corporate prayer.

 

[Occams Barber]

You have a great question, one I have considered too before. There is strength in numbers. Being in unity, and having the same intensity may also help the outcome. Prayer though is not witchcraft in which you can force God to do something, so sometimes, the numbers would not make a difference if it is not within His will. Also, the person with the request may have to meet some conditions in order to receive something from God. It might require personal faith only from that person, it may require that the person forgive others, or repent from some sin. Thus, the main thing is for the petitioner to pray and hear from God.
Ecclesiastes 4:9-12 (KJV)
9 Two are better than one; because they have a good reward for their labour.
10 For if they fall, the one will lift up his fellow: but woe to him that is alone when he falleth; for he hath not another to help him up.
11 Again, if two lie together, then they have heat: but how can one be warm alone?
12 And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.
Leviticus 26:8 (KJV)
8 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.

Thanks Richard. Why would ten people praying be better than one person from God's point of view? What do you mean by strength in numbers?

OB

 

[Occams Barber]

You seem to be claiming that multiplying prayers, whether in oneself or through others, is in vain, but you give no argument for your claim. Since you created the thread the onus is apparently on you to provide some reason for why multiplying prayers is in vain. Why wouldn't God ascribe more weight to more voices? Your question won't be intelligible until we understand why you've asked it.

I haven't said multiplying prayers are in vain. I have asked if ten people praying is more effective than one.

I have suggested that, given God's understanding, of the original supplicant it's difficult to see why ten could be better than one. Is ten better than one; is twenty better than ten; is there a sliding scale?

You are apparently saying that God listens to an impetration and decides whether it is based in a good reason or a bad reason. If it is based in a good reason he grants the request. If it is based in a bad reason he denies the request. In neither case would an additional voice, repeating the same request on the basis of the same reason, change the outcome of God's assessment. To say otherwise would be to commit something like an argumentum ad populum fallacy. (Hopefully I'm not committing a strawman, but I don't have much to go on.)

I'm not judging why God may or may not intercede. I am asking if extra prayers are more likely to produce a result (assuming a good reason)

Your answer appears to be "no". That would appear to make supporting prayer redundant.

OB

 

[Occams Barber]

CS Lewis said: I suppose the solution lies in pointing out that the efficacy of prayer is, at any rate no more of a problem then the efficacy of all human acts. i.e. if you say “It is useless to pray because Providence already knows what is best and will certainly do it”, then why is it not equally useless (and for the same reason) to try to alter the course of events in any way whatever — to ask for the salt or book your seat in a train?


I don't see how I am avoiding anything. Worship is a communal activity. I just consider this a non-issue, from lack of understanding of prayer. It is intercessory, but even Jesus prayed to have this cup leave Him in Gethsemane. It is about the dynamic between God and worshipper, not a formula to alter reality - that is in fact what is usually condemned as magic by the Church.

If you didn't want to answer the question I'm not sure why you've replied.
OB

 

[Richard T]

Thanks Richard. Why would ten people praying be better than one person from God's point of view? What do you mean by strength in numbers?

OB

The greater the number, the more strength and powerful the prayer becomes. I shared the scriptures that talk of how the numbers add up. What I failed to share was the principle of continuing to ask something of God. You can find this in this passage. It implies that you have to keep knocking, keep asking and at some point God will answer. So now the question is why does God require this? It is not that it changes Him. Obviously, he could grant the request immediately. The answer though is that prayer changes you. It gives you a chance to find a more Godly position in Christ. That through prayer and consecration you have a better understanding of Him. In a sense you will not be a spoiled brat just getting any and everything you want, when you want it. No, instead you have to learn to persevere, to be patient, to learn more of the ways of God on your journey to fulfillment. It might at first glance seem cruel, but even more cruel would be for God to deny us the opportunity to learn, and to be mature.
Luke 11:5-10 (NASB)
5 Then He said to them, "Suppose one of you has a friend, and goes to him at midnight and says to him, 'Friend, lend me three loaves;
6 for a friend of mine has come to me from a journey, and I have nothing to set before him';
7 and from inside he answers and says, 'Do not bother me; the door has already been shut and my children and I are in bed; I cannot get up and give you anything.'
8 "I tell you, even though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will get up and give him as much as he needs.
9 "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
10 "For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.

 

[zippy2006]

I have suggested that, given God's understanding, of the original supplicant it's difficult to see why ten could be better than one. Is ten better than one; is twenty better than ten; is there a sliding scale?

Why is it difficult to see? You have to give us some sort of reason. I don't see why it is difficult. More certainly tends to be better in general. If you plant more seeds there is a better chance that grass will grow. If you raise more money there is a better chance that a cure will be found for cancer. If you convince more people to vote for your candidate there is a better chance that she will be elected. Why not apply this obvious and general principle to prayer? Do you believe there is some reason that prayer presents a special circumstance which deviates from the norm? If so, say why.

I'm not judging why God may or may not intercede. I am asking if extra prayers are more likely to produce a result.

How can you ask the second question without judging why God might intercede? That doesn't make much sense.

Your answer appears to be "no". That would appear to make supporting prayer redundant.

You're mistaken, but I'm not sure what led you to such a strange view. What words that I wrote in this thread led you to believe that the efficacy of prayer includes no reference to quantity?

 

[Occams Barber]

2 Cron 7:
12Then the LORD appeared to Solomon at night and said to him, “I have heard your prayer and have chosen this place for Myself as a house of sacrifice. 13“If I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or if I command the locust to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among My people, 14and My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 15“Now My eyes will be open and My ears attentive to the prayer offered in this place.

Clearly God was promising to respond to corporate prayer.

Thanks Carl. You seem to have a very Democratic view of God's will.

So you're a "yes". That's one "yes", one "no", and two imponderables.

• If more is better, is twenty better than ten?
• If I have no-one to support my prayer are my chances of receiving God's help reduced compared to someone with support?

OB

 

[Carl Emerson]

2 Cor 1
He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and He will deliver us. In Him we have placed our hope that He will yet again deliver us, 11 as you help us by your prayers. Then many will give thanks on our behalf for the favor shown us in answer to their prayers .

 

[Occams Barber]

Why is it difficult to see? You have to give us some sort of reason. I don't see why it is difficult. More certainly tends to be better in general. If you plant more seeds there is a better chance that grass will grow. If you raise more money there is a better chance that a cure will be found for cancer. If you convince more people to vote for your candidate there is a better chance that she will be elected. Why not apply this obvious and general principle to prayer? Do you believe there is some reason that prayer presents a special circumstance which deviates from the norm? If so, say why.

So, your answer is "More is better" based on the broad principle that "more" is usually better. Does this broad principle also apply to God?

You're mistaken, but I'm not sure what led you to such a strange view. What words that I wrote in this thread led you to believe that the efficacy of prayer includes no reference to quantity?

\

In your Post #7 you said

If it is based in a good reason he grants the request. If it is based in a bad reason he denies the request. In neither case would an additional voice, repeating the same request on the basis of the same reason, change the outcome of God's assessment. To say otherwise would be to commit something like an argumentum ad populum fallacy.

Sounds like a "no" vote to me. Within the space of two posts you appear to have done a complete about face.

OB

 

[Carl Emerson]

The following passage is probably one of the best examples of the power of corporate prayer...

Read is carefully and be blessed.

Peter and John Arrested
ACTS 4:
1As they were speaking to the people, the priests and the captain of the temple guard and the Sadducees came up to them, 2being greatly disturbed because they were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. 3And they laid hands on them and put them in jail until the next day, for it was already evening. 4But many of those who had heard the message believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
5On the next day, their rulers and elders and scribes were gathered together in Jerusalem; 6and Annas the high priest was there, and Caiaphas and John and Alexander, and all who were of high-priestly descent. 7When they had placed them in the center, they began to inquire, “By what power, or in what name, have you done this?” 8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people, 9if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man, as to how this man has been made well, 10let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this name this man stands here before you in good health. 11“He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone. 12“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”



Threat and Release

13Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus. 14And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they had nothing to say in reply. 15But when they had ordered them to leave the Council, they began to confer with one another, 16saying, “What shall we do with these men? For the fact that a noteworthy miracle has taken place through them is apparent to all who live in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. 17“But so that it will not spread any further among the people, let us warn them to speak no longer to any man in this name.” 18And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge; 20for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.” 21When they had threatened them further, they let them go (finding no basis on which to punish them) on account of the people, because they were all glorifying God for what had happened; 22for the man was more than forty years old on whom this miracle of healing had been performed.

23When they had been released, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24And when they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, “O Lord, it is You who MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM,

25who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said,
‘WHY DID THE GENTILES RAGE,
AND THE PEOPLES DEVISE FUTILE THINGS?

26‘THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND,
AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER
AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.’

27“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. 29“And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, 30while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.” 31And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

If you didn't want to answer the question I'm not sure why you've replied.
OB

I did answer, by explaining that there is an error in the thinking about prayer. It is the same way as when you address a Flat Earth argument - more often than not, a conceptual issue causes the 'problem' the flat earther supposedly sees in the scientific consensus.

 

[Occams Barber]

The following passage is probably one of the best examples of the power of corporate prayer...

Read is carefully and be blessed.

Peter and John Arrested
ACTS 4:
1As they were speaking to the people, the priests and the captain of the temple guard and the Sadducees came up to them, 2being greatly disturbed because they were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. 3And they laid hands on them and put them in jail until the next day, for it was already evening. 4But many of those who had heard the message believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
5On the next day, their rulers and elders and scribes were gathered together in Jerusalem; 6and Annas the high priest was there, and Caiaphas and John and Alexander, and all who were of high-priestly descent. 7When they had placed them in the center, they began to inquire, “By what power, or in what name, have you done this?” 8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people, 9if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man, as to how this man has been made well, 10let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this name this man stands here before you in good health. 11“He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone. 12“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”



Threat and Release

13Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus. 14And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they had nothing to say in reply. 15But when they had ordered them to leave the Council, they began to confer with one another, 16saying, “What shall we do with these men? For the fact that a noteworthy miracle has taken place through them is apparent to all who live in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. 17“But so that it will not spread any further among the people, let us warn them to speak no longer to any man in this name.” 18And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge; 20for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.” 21When they had threatened them further, they let them go (finding no basis on which to punish them) on account of the people, because they were all glorifying God for what had happened; 22for the man was more than forty years old on whom this miracle of healing had been performed.

23When they had been released, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24And when they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, “O Lord, it is You who MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM,

25who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said,
‘WHY DID THE GENTILES RAGE,
AND THE PEOPLES DEVISE FUTILE THINGS?

26‘THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND,
AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER
AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.’

27“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. 29“And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, 30while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.” 31And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.

Thanks (I think)

By now Carl, you should know me well enough to realise that drowning me in Bible quotes ain't gonna work even if you are a New Zealander.

OB