Praise to the Man!

[Toms777]

This is another point of inconsistency, in my opinion. For example, the Bible itself talks about praising humans, as the above woman. It is alright when the Bible does it once in a blue moon but not alright when a Mormon hymn does it once in a blue moon? Does this opinion not also strike you as somewhat inconsistent?

Again, taking it out of context. Praise of a man in and of itself is not necessarily bad, but when praise is given which belongs to God alone - then we have the creation of a false messiah taking the place of God.

 

[Toms777]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints only worships only ONE God-Heavenly Father.

Then you do not worship Jesus, since the LDS church recognizes three Gods. Yet in scripture we are told that Jesus is worthy of worship. Why do you not worship Jesus?

I think I finally found an answer.
In the church, worthy male members are given the authority of the Priesthood. The Power of the Priesthood is God's, Christ's and the Holy Ghost's alone making them gods.

In the Bible, all who have received Jesus as Saviour are members of a Holy pristehood over whom there is but one high priest (1 Pet 2:9, Heb 3;1) and that is Jesus.

Where is the Bible is a verse which says that men can become God or gods?

Men have the AUTHORITY of the priesthood.
In the eternites, men will recieve first the full authority of the priesthood, then the powers of the priesthood, making them like God, in ability, but not God in authority or fullness of power.

Since the premise of your argument as shown above is not Biblical, neitehr are your conclusions.

Men may become gods, but not God. God is the title of the Eternal Father, while god is the name for people with all the powers and authority of the priesthood.

This is not in the Bible.

Where is the Bible is a verse which says that men can become God or gods?

In Exodus, where it says "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me", it doesn't say that there are not other gods. It says that we are to worship only HEavenly Father. by saying that man can become gods, does not say that they will be equal to, or above God. They will be granted many of His powers, and all of His authority.

It does say that there are no other gods here (and elsewhere):

Isa 44:8
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.'"
NKJV

So, again, where is the Bible (not your own assumptions and reasoning) is there a verse in the Bible which says that men become God or gods?

 

[DCP 32° K.T]

Again, taking it out of context. Praise of a man in and of itself is not necessarily bad, but when praise is given which belongs to God alone - then we have the creation of a false messiah taking the place of God.

No, I did not take anything out of context at all. As you said, praise of a man in and of itself is not necessarily bad. Trouble is, I do not see this hymn as doing anything more than what the Bible does for other men and women. The hymn does not establish another messiah to take the place of God. The hymn does not do it, the Mormons do not understand the hymn as doing it, and I have yet to ever hear a Mormoin pray in the name of Joseph Smith. It just ain't happenin'.

 

[Toms777]

No, I did not take anything out of context at all. As you said, praise of a man in and of itself is not necessarily bad. Trouble is, I do not see this hymn as doing anything more than what the Bible does for other men and women. The hymn does not establish another messiah to take the place of God. The hymn does not do it, the Mormons do not understand the hymn as doing it, and I have yet to ever hear a Mormoin pray in the name of Joseph Smith. It just ain't happenin'.

I never said anything about parise or anointing.

Please address the issues that were raised, not strawmen.

 

[emerald Dragon]

We worship only God, the Eternal Father, through Jesus Christ, with the witness of the Holy Spirit. We honor and revere Christ, but do not worship, as worshiping would put Him above God.

 

[DCP 32° K.T]

I never said anything about parise or anointing.

Please address the issues that were raised, not strawmen.

I am, and you most certainly did. I even quoted you verbatim.

 

[Toms777]

The point is this: If other persons in the Bible are said to be anointed (even though the very same Greek and Hebrew words are used for both an anointed man and for the Messiah, Christ), there still is only one Christ, but if a Mormon hymn says that Joseph Smith is anointed, you and JVAC make it out to say that Joseph Smith is another Christ! Do you not see that approach as a bit...well...inconsistent or as a double-standard?

You ignore everythinmg which was said in the hymn and the issues that were actually raised which equate Joseph Smith to God. I even coppied and pasted them again so that you could see them and not have to go back 300 messages.

please address the issues that we did raise.

And please show me where it the Bible that it says that men can become God or gods.

 

[Toms777]

I am, and you most certainly did. I even quoted you verbatim.

I went back 5 pages and cannot see where I referred to the reference in the hymn on anointing nor where you quote me doing so.

Please point me to either reference.

 

[skylark1]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints only worships only ONE God-Heavenly Father.

I think I finally found an answer.
In the church, worthy male members are given the authority of the Priesthood. The Power of the Priesthood is God's, Christ's and the Holy Ghost's alone making them gods. Men have the AUTHORITY of the priesthood.
In the eternites, men will recieve first the full authority of the priesthood, then the powers of the priesthood, making them like God, in ability, but not God in authority or fullness of power.

The power of the priesthood makes one a god? Where do you get this? The Bible? The Book of Mormon? The D&C? Would you please provide chapter and verse?

I was under the impression that LDS believe that Jesus was the God of the OT. Who do LDS believe that the Isrealites worshipped in the OT, God the Father or Christ? If you answer Christ, then why do you believe that it is inappropriate to worship him now?

Thanks.

 

[Toms777]

We worship only God, the Eternal Father, through Jesus Christ, with the witness of the Holy Spirit. We honor and revere Christ, but do not worship, as worshiping would put Him above God.

Then do you feel that God the Father was wrong to command worship of Jesus?

John 5:22-23
22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
NKJV

Phil 2:9-11
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
NKJV

Heb 1:6
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
"Let all the angels of God worship Him."
NKJV

Was Jesus wrong to accept worship?

Matt 14:33
33 Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, "Truly You are the Son of God."
NKJV

Matt 15:24-26
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"
NKJV

Matt 28:16-18
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
NKJV

Mark 5:5-7
6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him.
NKJV

Luke 5:8-9
8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord!"
NKJV

If He were not Almighty God, would this not be a sin on the part of Jesus?

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; A stranger, and not thine own lips. (Proverbs 27:2, ASV)
​

10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.​

11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.​

12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.​

13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.​

14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.​

15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.​

16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.​

17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.​

18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.​

19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.​

20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.​

21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.​

22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.​

23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.​

24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.​

25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.​

26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.​

27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.​

28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.​

29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.​

30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.​

31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.​

(Proverbs 31:10-31, ASV)​

​

This is another point of inconsistency, in my opinion. For example, the Bible itself talks about praising humans, as the above woman. It is alright when the Bible does it once in a blue moon but not alright when a Mormon hymn does it once in a blue moon? Does this opinion not also strike you as somewhat inconsistent?

There is a difference between admoration in praise and praise as in worship. Let me ask you this? If you went to church everyweek and everyweek the focus was on a "man" and not God, would you consider him to be admired or praised (worshiped) of course you would see him as being worshipped. That is what the LDS church does with JS. There is so much focus on him, much more than there is on Jesus that is obvious to anyone who knows the Word of God (the Bible) and that are doing more than just admiring him.

You may be thinking to yourself, "how does she know what they focus on in church, who does she think she is making such claims", so I will answer those questions for you ahead of time. I know what the LDS church focuses on because I was active lds for 28 years. I taught primary, relief society lessons and Gospel Docterine, was a visiting teacher and helped with the Enrichment nights when I was lds. Everything I did, every choice I made was based on what I was taught while in the LDS church, up until I accepted the truth of Jesus and left that church I am VERY familiar with the lds teachings and what and who they worship and I can honestly say without any hesitation that they do not worship the true God but they do worship JS, whether they realize it or not, it is the truth.

God Bless,
Grace

 

[MormonFriend]

.... If you went to church everyweek and everyweek the focus was on a "man" and not God, would you consider him to be admired or praised (worshiped) of course you would see him as being worshipped. That is what the LDS church does with JS. There is so much focus on him, much more than there is on Jesus that is obvious to anyone who knows the Word of God (the Bible) and that are doing more than just admiring him. .........

God Bless,
Grace

In those 28 years, what was your meditation during the Sacrament?

I have been a member for 41 years, and in an LDS family for 49 years. Your experience and observations is opposite of mine. Why do you suppose?

You didn't mention if you have attended the Temple, our highest form of worship. The name or likeness of Joseph Smith is never mentioned or seen in the endowment or other ordinances.

I am perplexed at how you could have posted this perspective.

Nevertheless, God bless you in your new found happiness.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

In those 28 years, what was your meditation during the Sacrament?

I have been a member for 41 years, and in an LDS family for 49 years. Your experience and observations is opposite of mine. Why do you suppose?

You didn't mention if you have attended the Temple, our highest form of worship. The name or likeness of Joseph Smith is never mentioned or seen in the endowment or other ordinances.

I am perplexed at how you could have posted this perspective.

Nevertheless, God bless you in your new found happiness.

that is true, JS is not mentioned in the temple, as far as I remember but there is also no worship in the temple of the true God. There is a lot of false teaching about prexistance, false covenants, new secret names, secret handshakes, wearing of interesting clothing that represents the fig leaves that adam and eve made, how you personally can be "exalted" to godhood to be ruler over your own earth (planets) for the eternities ect. I am glad though that the LDS took the blood oaths out of the temple ritual. But when it all boiles down to it, who came up with all these beliefs, who started these ungodly temple rituals, JS did. So, every time one participates in the lds temple ritual, they are not worshiping the true God of the Bible but rather the "man" JS who copied the rituals almost identically from masonic rituals.

On a side note, the green aprons that are worn while in the LDS temple represent the fig leaves coverings that Adam and Eve made to cover their nakedness however, when reading the Bible you see that God rejected the fig leaf coverings made by Adam and Eve and instead made them coverings of animal skin. Interesting that the lds embrace something that God himself rejected and especially in a place they consider their most holy of places (lds temple).

One other Biblical fact. The viel of the OT temple was around 14 inches thick and was made so strongly that not even 12 team of Oxen could tear it apart. However, when Jesus died on the Cross and said the words, "It is finished" (signifying he had fullfilled the old law and paid the price for the sin of man and the purpose of the temple had become void) the veil of the temple was torn (wrent) from top to bottem, by God. However, the LDS church apperenlty did not think the sacrafice of Jesus was enough. He fullfilled the law, God tore the temple veil in 2 signifying the need for the temple no longer applied yet the LDS church has built new temples (which have absolutly NOTHING to do with OT temples) and put a viel up in them. Granted the veil in the LDS temples is nothing more than a sheet with really good thread count and a hole in it for one to put their hand through to give the secret "signs and tokans" but it still goes to show how very unbiblical the LDS docterines are.

If you would like Biblical scripture of the things I have pointed out, I will be more than happy to post them, just let me know.

Love in Christ Jesus,
Grace

 

[MormonFriend]

Then you do not worship Jesus, since the LDS church recognizes three Gods. Yet in scripture we are told that Jesus is worthy of worship. Why do you not worship Jesus?


In the Bible, all who have received Jesus as Saviour are members of a Holy pristehood over whom there is but one high priest (1 Pet 2:9, Heb 3;1) and that is Jesus.

Where is the Bible is a verse which says that men can become God or gods?

Since the premise of your argument as shown above is not Biblical, neitehr are your conclusions.


This is not in the Bible.

Where is the Bible is a verse which says that men can become God or gods?


It does say that there are no other gods here (and elsewhere):

Isa 44:8
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.'"
NKJV

So, again, where is the Bible (not your own assumptions and reasoning) is there a verse in the Bible which says that men become God or gods?

Tom, when will you ever quit equating the beliefs of our faith to yours? It will never work! It is putting a round piece through a square hole.
There was an apostasy! The evidence of that is everywhere, at least to those with eyes that see. Because of the apostasy we cannot find everything there is relevant to the Gospel in the Bible. If we could, there would not be a multitude of different denominations with the need of:


The opposite of united is divided. The Christian Body is divided. That in itself is proof that it cannot be the true Body of Christ.

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. (1 Corinthians1:10)

Ultimately that difines that you are not qualified to teach us (or anyone) how to worship God.
There is no better way we know of to worship Christ than to worship God the Father! That is what Christ taught us to do. Yes, Christ is worthy of our worship, devotion, love, admiration, the list goes on.

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
(John14:6 - 11)

A person cannot worship One without worshiping the Other. So we do worship Christ when we worship God.

I once challenged your understanding of the Bible. I do so again with this test. Please find all Biblical scripture that instructs us how understanding is achieved. If we need to start another thread, let's do it. I know and have listed enough of those instructions to demonstrate that understanding is not for anyone who picks up the Bible. I'm sure that there are more to be found.

 

[Toms777]

Tom, when will you ever quit equating the beliefs of our faith to yours? It will never work! It is putting a round piece through a square hole.

But I thought that Mormons wanted to be equated to Christians. Regardless, I am glad that we agree that we follow different religions.

There was an apostasy! The evidence of that is everywhere, at least to those with eyes that see. Because of the apostasy we cannot find everything there is relevant to the Gospel in the Bible. If we could, there would not be a multitude of different denominations with the need of:

We are not discussion apostasy. Let's stay on topic

There is no better way we know of to worship Christ than to worship God the Father!

But you said that you do not worship Jesus, only the Father. the Bible specifically says that Jesus is worthy of worship directly. The examples that i gave did not worship Jesus through the Father, but worshipped jesus directly.

Do you think that they erred? Did God the father make a mistake in instructing the angels? Did Jesus sin by accepting direct worship?

A person cannot worship One without worshiping the Other. So we do worship Christ when we worship God.

If they are different gods, as Mormonism claims, one can indeed worship each separately. Again, the Bible is clear that Jesus received direct worship.

 

[MormonFriend]

I can appreciate your awareness of the Temple endowment, but it is far, far from understanding it. With that much awareness, I am sure you are aware also of its sacredness to us, and that posting these things this way reflects disrespect of the highest degree. I ask you personally and with a common love of brother/sisterhood, to edit your post and remove those things you know are sacred to me. However, agency is in effect here and it is your choice, and choice reflects character.

And what of my other question?

 

[happyinhisgrace]

I can appreciate your awareness of the Temple endowment, but it is far, far from understanding it. With that much awareness, I am sure you are aware also of its sacredness to us, and that posting these things this way reflects disrespect of the highest degree. I ask you personally and with a common love of brother/sisterhood, to edit your post and remove those things you know are sacred to me. However, agency is in effect here and it is your choice, and choice reflects character.

And what of my other question?

I ask you personally and with a common love of brother/sisterhood, to edit your post and remove those things you know are sacred to me. However, agency is in effect here and it is your choice, and choice reflects character.

I will leave it up to the moderator to determine whether or not my posting is appropriate for this group. As far as character goes, Jesus himself did not hold back truth and he was always very upfront about truth compared to falsehood. If you feel that I have poor character for exposing truth, then so be it. Truth does often offend.

Let me explain it in a way that won't seem so "in your face" and "harsh". Since becoming a Christian almost 2 years ago, God has really put it on my heart to study, learn and preach of Biblical truths. God uses all of us in different ways to fulfill his purpose and this seems to have been the "spiritual gift" he has indwelled in me. As one of my friends puts it, "God has put" me "on fast forward". I say this not to lift myself up but to try to explain to you why I feel so strongly convicted to make known those things that go against God's word.

You will probably be offended at my posts more than just this one time because of the reasons I listed above but I hope you can see past my lack of tact and see into the reason I do what I do. I love the Lord heart and soul, he is my entire life and I would be doing him disrespect not to uphold his truth.

God Bless,
Grace

 

[happyinhisgrace]

I ask you personally and with a common love of brother/sisterhood, to edit your post and remove those things you know are sacred to me. However, agency is in effect here and it is your choice, and choice reflects character.

I will leave it up to the moderator to determine whether or not my posting is appropriate for this group. As far as character goes, Jesus himself did not hold back truth and he was always very upfront about truth compared to falsehood. If you feel that I have poor character for exposing truth, then so be it. Truth does often offend.

Let me explain it in a way that won't seem so "in your face" and "harsh". Since becoming a Christian almost 2 years ago, God has really put it on my heart to study, learn and preach of Biblical truths. God uses all of us in different ways to fulfill his purpose and this seems to have been the "spiritual gift" he has indwelled in me. As one of my friends puts it, "God has put" me "on fast forward". I say this not to lift myself up but to try to explain to you why I feel so strongly convicted to make known those things that go against God's word.

You will probably be offended at my posts more than just this one time because of the reasons I listed above but I hope you can see past my lack of tact and see into the reason I do what I do. I love the Lord heart and soul, he is my entire life and I would be doing him disrespect not to uphold his truth.

God Bless,
Grace

I can appreciate your awareness of the Temple endowment, but it is far, far from understanding it.

I get the impression that you presume to know my understanding of it. Maybe you could tell me what "my" understanding is and I can tell you if you are correct.

Love in Christ Jesus,
Grace

 

[fatboys]

Grace, from your description of your experiences in the Temple, I can tell you that you have misunderstood and have meanings very wrong. The covenants and promises are for our eternal progression. They are commitments we make and promise to make and keep under all circumstances. If you have been throught the Temple, you were given the freedom of choice to make these promises or not. You accepted them and now have denounced them. Although you no longer believe in them, you should at least have enough respect for those you knew as friends, or even family members to whom you love to not mock or make public the sacred things of the Temple. That would be common courtesy in my opinion.

 

[MormonFriend]

I will leave it up to the moderator to determine whether or not my posting is appropriate for this group. As far as character goes, Jesus himself did not hold back truth and he was always very upfront about truth compared to falsehood. If you feel that I have poor character for exposing truth, then so be it. Truth does often offend. ...

I am not asking the moderator, I am asking you, out of courtesy and respect, to do so for me, not for this group. I will have a very difficult time having any respect for anything else you might have to offer without your "choosing the right when a choice is placed before you." Yes, Jesus did not hold back the truth, but I don't think you mean to equate your self and your abilities to understand truth as Jesus does. He is most qualified to do so.

I would love to have discussion over your experiences. I can learn a lot, and maybe you also.