Praise to the Man!

[Toms777]

Am I a "thing?" Are you a "thing?"

(Are you from Missouri, the "Show Me" State?

Picky. Perfection is an attribute of God, but perfection is not God.

Just like you may have blonde hair, but not all who have blonde hair are you.

 

[Toms777]

This thread is 30 pages long. Most of it I have read and missed this poor misguided LDS. If you can direct me to 2-3 pages, I will search diligently. But I didn't see this as I have been reading over the past couple of weeks.

Charity, TOm

Post #178 and I quote:

"FB: Tom why ask this question? We believe we all have the potential of become like the Father this includes . This includes Joseph Smith. As distasteful as it may seem to you."

 

[MormonFriend]

Picky. Perfection is an attribute of God, but perfection is not God.

Just like you may have blonde hair, but not all who have blonde hair are you.

And we are not going to become God, only the potential to become like God. He created us in His likeness and we posess the potential to grow in all of the attributes that He has. (Some attributes may be withheld temporarily or permenantly for wise purposes)

 

[Toms777]

And we are not going to become God, only the potential to become like God. He created us in His likeness and we posess the potential to grow in all of the attributes that He has. (Some attributes may be withheld temporarily or permenantly for wise purposes)

That makes no sense. You say that we all havebthe potential to become like God, but it is not going to happen. You contradicted yourself. Either the potential exists or it does not. If it does, then show me in scripture where it says that men can become God or gods. So far I only have your word for it.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matthew5:48)

I always hear LDS use this passage to try and prove that man can become Gods...the fact of the matter is that if you read it in context (a chapter before this particular passage and right up to this verse) you realize it is talking about being perfect in "love"...not perfect like God who is by the way, the only total perfection, yesterday, today and forever.

Proof texting is never a valid way to try and prove a false belief....good try though.

Grace

 

[JVAC]

Toms777,



It is a pity that you will not allow LDS to interpret what THEY mean when THEY sing the songs in THEIR hymnal. If you want to sing the song, it can mean to you whatever you like, but every LDS here and every LDS ever encountered by every LDS here have told you that YOU MISUNDERSTAND.

Ok from this First I gather, that you have to be LDS to interpret LDS hymns rightly, otherwise you will see them as semi or fully heretical.

"We believe that we don't mean what we sing", that is how this reads, for all that has been done has been said, "We don't believe that" instead of, "your logic is wrong and here is why"

 

[MormonFriend]

That makes no sense. You say that we all havebthe potential to become like God, but it is not going to happen. You contradicted yourself. Either the potential exists or it does not. If it does, then show me in scripture where it says that men can become God or gods. So far I only have your word for it.

Tom, this is going nowhere when you ignore information from previous posts, and draw conclusions contrary to what was posted.
To get down to basics, and I know we have been over this, this discussion shouldn't be happening due to the issues of first principles first, or milk before the meat.
Our eternal potential is not a doctrine that is offered to the public, yet it is not withheld either. It becomes public controversy, for example, when non LDS search out such doctrines that were taught to members and documented. The members were, for the most part, prepared to receive such doctrine. Even many members then "choked" on the meat of doctrine, and not properly understanding it, used their misconstrued presentations against the Church when they left it.
The discussion is a loose / loose situation because one must first accept and apply the first and basic principles of the gospel before they can approach the rest, as was explained in Hebrews 5.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

(Hebrews5:11 - 12)

Since you reject these first principles, then you cannot understand what is beyond. You are demanding proof before the trial of faith. It does not work that way!

When you ask for Bible references, do you assume that just having access to the written word of God entitles anyone to understand exactly what God conveyed? Does not God withhold understanding from men? How do you know or gauge when a person has the insight from the Spirit to understand?

 

[DCP 32° K.T]

...Again I do not say you believe that there are two christs, yet that is what can be deduced from a hymn that is endorsed by your church. Is my logic flawed, I don't know, has it been refuted, no; So it still stands that this hymn suggests there are two christs with opposite agendas.

Too many people in this thread couln't read the Hebrew Bible, the Bible of the Apostles, or the Greek new Testament if their lives depended upon it! It is no wonder there is so much misunderstanding here. Doesn't anyone know how many people are said to have been anointed or were called the Lord's anointed in the Bible? Sheesh! That should have ended the contraversy! But, no, certain persons here have to forget listening to the Mormons or to anyone else who does not see that this Mormon hymn does not indicate that Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet, is not and never was regarded as another Christ. If you want to look for such doctrine, take a look at the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Priest as Alter Christus (not very well known but summarized in various writings of Thomas Aquinas and in the book entitled Faith of Millions)! But, don't be ignorant and attibute to the Mormons something they never believed. Only a fool would do so in light of so many witnesses as to the correct meaning and interpretation of the hymn.

 

[Toms777]

Tom, this is going nowhere when you ignore information from previous posts, and draw conclusions contrary to what was posted.
To get down to basics, and I know we have been over this, this discussion shouldn't be happening due to the issues of first principles first, or milk before the meat.
Our eternal potential is not a doctrine that is offered to the public, yet it is not withheld either. It becomes public controversy, for example, when non LDS search out such doctrines that were taught to members and documented. The members were, for the most part, prepared to receive such doctrine. Even many members then "choked" on the meat of doctrine, and not properly understanding it, used their misconstrued presentations against the Church when they left it.
The discussion is a loose / loose situation because one must first accept and apply the first and basic principles of the gospel before they can approach the rest, as was explained in Hebrews 5. Since you reject these first principles, then you cannot understand what is beyond. You are demanding proof before the trial of faith. It does not work that way!

When you ask for Bible references, do you assume that just having access to the written word of God entitles anyone to understand exactly what God conveyed? Does not God withhold understanding from men? How do you know or gauge when a person has the insight from the Spirit to understand?

I find this interesting.

- You tell us that we have the potential for being like God.
- You tell that none of us ever will be God
- You tell us that this is not a public doctrine
- You do not deny that it is a doctrine
- You then suggest that we cannot understand what the Bible says.

What you have not done is provide the Bible references os that we can be as the Bereans who were commended for searching the scripture daily to see if what Paul preached was true. Well I have searched the scriptures and throughout God has said that there is only one God, and no others.

Nowhere in scripture is there is a single reference which endorses any other gods, or men becoming God or gods as the Mormon doctrine teaches.

And you try to tell us that it is our problem because we cannot understand.

I'm not buying it. The longer that you go on telling us that men can be like God or become gods and continue to be able to fail to substantiate this in the Bible, the weaker the claims appear.

Show us a verse in the Bible which says that men become God or gods.

 

[Toms777]

Too many people in this thread couln't read the Hebrew Bible, the Bible of the Apostles, or the Greek new Testament if their lives depended upon it! It is no wonder there is so much misunderstanding here. Doesn't anyone know how many people are said to have been anointed or were called the Lord's anointed in the Bible? Sheesh! That should have ended the contraversy! But, no, certain persons here have to forget listening to the Mormons or to anyone else who does not see that this Mormon hymn does not indicate that Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet, is not and never was regarded as another Christ. If you want to look for such doctrine, take a look at the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Priest as Alter Christus (not very well known but summarized in various writings of Thomas Aquinas and in the book entitled Faith of Millions)! But, don't be ignorant and attibute to the Mormons something they never believed. Only a fool would do so in light of so many witnesses as to the correct meaning and interpretation of the hymn.

I don't take my doctrine from Roman Catholics or from the Mormons church. I take it from the Bible.

The hymn is written in english, not Hebrew or Greek and we can all read English.

Rather than attacking those who disagree with you, show us the verse in the Bible which says that we can become God or gods.

 

[DCP 32° K.T]

...The hymn is written in english, not Hebrew or Greek and we can all read English.

Rather than attacking those who disagree with you, show us the verse in the Bible which says that we can become God or gods.

Even the English Bible states that others were the Lord's anointed. The Bible of the Apostles refers to each of these as Christos. Even the Hebrew Bible refers to a number of men as Messiah. Infer what you will but it still will not prove that the Mormons understand Joseph Smith to be another Christ via an English hymn.

Nowhere does the hymn say that Joseph Smith is another god. Nowhere does ti say that Joseph Smith is another Christ. So why do certain ones here wish to claim that it does and ignore the Bible which even goes so far as to call others besides the Holy Jesus the Lord's anointed? I wonder if certain ones rather enjoy agitating people as a means of having fun at others' expense. This sort of boorish behavior is deplorable.

And as to the verses of scripture that we have posted, certain ones disagree with them and offer fallacious redefinitions of words that do not fit their context, ignore various passages or redefine them altogether, and it is like pulling teeth to get certain people to answer a simple yes or no question regarding the Kenosis. [Edited by moderator]

 

[MormonFriend]

I find this interesting.

- You tell us that we have the potential for being like God.
- You tell that none of us ever will be God
- You tell us that this is not a public doctrine
- You do not deny that it is a doctrine
- You then suggest that we cannot understand what the Bible says.

What you have not done is provide the Bible references os that we can be as the Bereans who were commended for searching the scripture daily to see if what Paul preached was true. Well I have searched the scriptures and throughout God has said that there is only one God, and no others.

Nowhere in scripture is there is a single reference which endorses any other gods, or men becoming God or gods as the Mormon doctrine teaches.

And you try to tell us that it is our problem because we cannot understand.

I'm not buying it. The longer that you go on telling us that men can be like God or become gods and continue to be able to fail to substantiate this in the Bible, the weaker the claims appear.

Show us a verse in the Bible which says that men become God or gods.

I will do my very best to make it clear. I owe that to you. My first priority is to be sure that the Holy Ghost is able to dwell within and teach you meaning as you read scripture.
It is clear that one must depart from evil to understand. Logical that the Holy Ghost cannot dwell in a heart that feeds on evil of any nature. That is why Corinthians tells us that the things of God are understood by the Spirit of God. I am not your judge or a finger pointer. I am just stating a biblical fact that if a person clings on to any evil such as greed (gambling, coveting) vanity (self seeking) immorality (adultry, pornogrophy, improper thoughts etc.), he will not understand spiritual truths.
We must self judge ourselves and be honest to ourselves if we are in condition to receive tutoring from the Holy Spirit.
If any of these or other evils are part of our lives, we are in prime condition to be deceived.

26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

(Genesis1:26)

22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:(Genesis3:22)

Is it clear enough? We were created in His image and likeness, and man became as God. This event was forseen by God and the plan of redeeming man was already in place. Man was not yet immortal and God restricted man from the tree of life. He had to be purged of his sins and pride, refined as scripture put it, before man could become immortal.

Your "interesting" list of my statements was a blow below the belt punch.

- You tell us that we have the potential for being like God.
- You tell that none of us ever will be God
- You tell us that this is not a public doctrine
- You do not deny that it is a doctrine
- You then suggest that we cannot understand what the Bible says.

I gave you reasonable (but not complete) support for these topics, but I suppose you wish to avoid them. Better that way anyway since you are really not prepared to understand them. But you could be.

 

[MormonFriend]

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matthew5:48)

I always hear LDS use this passage to try and prove that man can become Gods...the fact of the matter is that if you read it in context (a chapter before this particular passage and right up to this verse) you realize it is talking about being perfect in "love"...not perfect like God who is by the way, the only total perfection, yesterday, today and forever.

Proof texting is never a valid way to try and prove a false belief....good try though.

Grace

Is not God "Love?" If we become perfect in Love, and were already created in His image and likeness, then we have become like God. We are His children for heaven's sake! Children potentially grow to become like their parents. Not become their parents, but like them.
And furthurmore, we have the potential to be joing heirs with Christ!

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Romans8:16 - 17)

What would we do with such power and glory to obtain the things that God has, unless we were like Him?

 

[Toms777]

Is not God "Love?"

Yes, God is love, but it is a logical fallacy (not to mention heresy) to turn it around and say love is God.

If we become perfect in Love, and were already created in His image and likeness, then we have become like God.

But there is the fallacy. If you reduce God to love alone, then you have made love your God, thus creating a false God. God is a living almighty being in three persons, a being who can think, made judgements and who created and controls the universe. To try to reduce God to "love" is to miss entirely who God is.

Children potentially grow to become like their parents. Not become their parents, but like them.
And furthurmore, we have the potential to be joing heirs with Christ!
What would we do with such power and glory to obtain the things that God has, unless we were like Him?

The Bible says that those who accept Jesus as Saviour become <b>adopted</b> sons, not sons by nature, and adopted children never grow into the nature of their parents though they may become joint heirs with the begotten children of the parents.

 

[Toms777]

Even the English Bible states that others were the Lord's anointed. The Bible of the Apostles refers to each of these as Christos. Even the Hebrew Bible refers to a number of men as Messiah. Infer what you will but it still will not prove that the Mormons understand Joseph Smith to be another Christ via an English hymn.regarding the Kenosis.

I see only one Messiah and one Christos. Others may have been anointed by oil, some to be king, others prophetically in pointing the way to the one true Messiah, but the Bible is clear that there is one and only one Messiah.

Isa 43:11
11 I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior.
NKJV

If you have a Bible that says otherwise, then get yourself a new Bible!!

Nowhere does the hymn say that Joseph Smith is another god. Nowhere does ti say that Joseph Smith is another Christ. So why do certain ones here wish to claim that it does and ignore the Bible which even goes so far as to call others besides the Holy Jesus the Lord's anointed?

Please go back to the start of this thread. The hymn gives attriobutes to Jospeh Smith that the Bible gicves only to God, thus equating Joseph Smith to God.

 

[Toms777]

I will do my very best to make it clear. I owe that to you. My first priority is to be sure that the Holy Ghost is able to dwell within and teach you meaning as you read scripture.

I have received Jesus as Lord and Saviour and He has already ensured that the Holy Spirit indwells and guiides me. There is nothing more that you can do in that regard.

Is it clear enough? We were created in His image and likeness, and man became as God.

Really? Where in the Bible does it say that man can become God?

 

[DCP 32° K.T]

I see only one Messiah and one Christos. Others may have been anointed by oil, some to be king, others prophetically in pointing the way to the one true Messiah, but the Bible is clear that there is one and only one Messiah....

Aha! I knew it! We are talking past one another. I think we might perhaps a language barrier? I never said that there was more than one Christ and more than one True Messiah! What I did say was that there were others in the Hebrew Bible who were referred to as meshiach YHWH (English: 'anointed of the Lord') and others in the Bible of the Apostles that are called christos kuriou and christoi kuriou (English: 'anointed of the Lord')! And there are. Please get out any Hebrew Bible and the Greek version of the Seventy (you claim you have one, didn't you?) and you will see these things for yourself. If others can be said to be anointed ones of the Lord, why cannot Joseph Smith be in the hymn if the hymn really is giving this attribute to him as you claim? Sorry but I cannot and do not see how the Mormons' hymn is heresy (never mind their teachings on other matters which which even Orthodox would take issue) if even the Bible teaches that there are others who are meshiach YHWH and christos kuriou.

If you have a Bible that says otherwise, then get yourself a new Bible!!

You mean I'm going to have to throw away the Bible of the Apostles and all my Hebrew Bibles? How sad!

Please go back to the start of this thread. The hymn gives attriobutes to Jospeh Smith that the Bible gicves only to God, thus equating Joseph Smith to God.

And what several of us have been saying all along is that there are attibuted of God that are to be communicated to his Saints. The Bible teaches that we will have Christ's glory, all that he has, all power over the nations as he does, rule over angels and the cosmos as God does, share the nature of God, be like him, be changed into the same image as Christ who is the image of God, be filled with all the fullness of God, etc.

So, if that is the case, what problem is there even if the hymn does what God himself says he will do? Already, the Mormons and others have established that the hymn does not do what you and JVAC claims but you ignore what is said. It is the Mormons' hymn. They interpret it differently than you do. Their interpretation is authoritative. Yours is not.

 

[Toms777]

Aha! I knew it! We are talking past one another. I think we might perhaps a language barrier? I never said that there was more than one Christ and more than one True Messiah!

Then you do not understand what "Christos" means.

The only authortitative interpretation is God's, and we find that by going to the Bible.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Is not God "Love?" If we become perfect in Love, and were already created in His image and likeness, then we have become like God. We are His children for heaven's sake! Children potentially grow to become like their parents. Not become their parents, but like them.
And furthurmore, we have the potential to be joing heirs with Christ!
What would we do with such power and glory to obtain the things that God has, unless we were like Him?

Actually we are NOT all his children, only those who accept the One true God are adopted into the family of God so that throws your whole argument completely out of the loop.

Grace

 

[Existential1]

When we, who all in our different ways seek to know god, argue amongst ourselves, and attack each other over the details of our witness and faith: are we not, and i ask this as a genuine question, not as an answer to which i have been made privy; are we not turning away from what might be meant by the many rooms in god's house. Is god not such as to include us all, as children? Are the edifices and scaffolding of our individual approach to god, not just that; could it not be, that the work of approaching god, of completing the job, sees much of this extraneous, enabling support, end in the skip? Is it useful, if we remain serious about approaching and manifesting god, to argue about the scaffolding; even where, until we finish that job of work, we simply cannot proceed without it?
If god is, as we would all claim, the ground and source of all that we are; and of such splendour and ineffability, that all that we are burns and dies as we approach it: then just why do we think that the details of our differences, in our approaches to god, must necessarily conflict just because they are different.
Are we not just all, from our differing starting points, passing our hands over the amazing body of an elephant, whose wholeness we cannot see in our blindness, and whose splendour we cannot comprehend in our crudity.

Thanks to all those whose witnesses took me to this understanding; even if it might seem to them that i here disagree with them.
Jesus is the man.
Take care, and god bless.