Praise to the Man!

[JVAC]

have a great idea. Why don't you and Mr. 777 find one active and devoted LDS that believe, or have been taught those things that you allude to? If this is what the Church teaches, then it is doing a poor job of it because nobody that is LDS understands it that way or believes it.

Again, and Again I never said you believe that, I stated that is what I deduce that it teaches, does it not? Besides saying you don't believe what I have deduced, you have not refuted it. My assumption of the text stands as THAT is what it is communicating, bet it your belief or not, I would like you to refute this point then we can all be back to having One Christ. Yet sadly, you haven't, none of you have.

Again I do not say you believe that there are two christs, yet that is what can be deduced from a hymn that is endorsed by your church. Is my logic flawed, I don't know, has it been refuted, no; So it still stands that this hymn suggests there are two christs with opposite agendas.

 

[Theway]

Again, and Again I never said you believe that, I stated that is what I deduce that it teaches, does it not? Besides saying you don't believe what I have deduced, you have not refuted it. My assumption of the text stands as THAT is what it is communicating, bet it your belief or not, I would like you to refute this point then we can all be back to having One Christ. Yet sadly, you haven't, none of you have.

Again I do not say you believe that there are two christs, yet that is what can be deduced from a hymn that is endorsed by your church. Is my logic flawed, I don't know, has it been refuted, no; So it still stands that this hymn suggests there are two christs with opposite agendas.

I wouldn't have thought that this one would go on as long as it has. However let me add my name and the hundreds (maybe thousands) of members Ive come across and never was JS ever put in reverence or regard above Jesus Christ. So you can sleep good at night knowing that the CoJCoLDS is not falling astray by your interpretation of a hymn. Maybe the members of the CoJCoLDS are smarter than you give them credit for. But thanks for the concern

 

[Toms777]

I have a great idea. Why don't you and Mr. 777 find one active and devoted LDS that believe, or have been taught those things that you allude to? If this is what the Church teaches, then it is doing a poor job of it because nobody that is LDS understands it that way or believes it.

When we do and we post the quotes, you simply dismiss then claiming that they don't believe what they say do. If you do not agree with the hymn and what some of your leaders say, then you should say so. But don't try to attack us because you have a disagreement with your leadership and your church on doctrional issues.

 

[Toms777]

I wouldn't have thought that this one would go on as long as it has. However let me add my name and the hundreds (maybe thousands) of members Ive come across and never was JS ever put in reverence or regard above Jesus Christ. So you can sleep good at night knowing that the CoJCoLDS is not falling astray by your interpretation of a hymn. Maybe the members of the CoJCoLDS are smarter than you give them credit for. But thanks for the concern

If they do not believe that JS should be placed in a position of equality with God, that is good, and they should speak out against this heretical hymn.

 

[emerald Dragon]

Note that we started out with me pointuing out that the hymn "Praise to the Man" tried to equate Joseph Smioth to God. Mormon vehemntly denied that they would do such a thing.

Now we have the same Mormons arguing exactly that point....that man can become God.

WRONG!!!!

We are not saying that man can become God, we are saying that man can gain the fullness of the priesthood, and, in the eternities, have all the powers that God has. Men can become like God, and become a god, but not God. There is a difference.

And this still will not put man on the same level with God, as we will still be subject to Him, and still worship Him. We do not put Joseph Smith near, above, or on the same plane as God or Christ, merely above most Men.

There is a difference.

Where does it say that Men cannot become gods, or like gods? You ask us to prove ourselves with scripture, why do you not do the same?

And you still haven't answered my previous question: where in the bible does it say that the attributes that are given to God are soley God's, and why can't man be given some of the attributes of God? If we follow your logic, we are all guilty then, for we all honor someone-whether it be our leaders, our church leaders, etc. Since the bible says to honor the Lord and our God, are we therfore forbidden to honor anyone else?

I say no.

 

[Toms777]

WRONG!!!!
We are not saying that man can become God, we are saying that man can gain the fullness of the priesthood, and, in the eternities, have all the powers that God has. Men can become like God, and become a god, but not God. There is a difference.

Well now some of your friends here are arguing that men can become gods and are even trying deparately to find Bible verses to support their position. Now you are telling me that you disagree.

And this still will not put man on the same level with God, as we will still be subject to Him, and still worship Him.

Which god dop you worship? Mormonism teaches that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three gods, so if you worship one of these gods, which is it? Or is it the Father of God the father, or another god?

Where does it say that Men cannot become gods, or like gods? You ask us to prove ourselves with scripture, why do you not do the same?

Doctrine can only be established on the presence of a teaching in the Bible, not the absecne of something. For insatnce, the Bible does not say that you have an IQ of 10, weigh 6000 pouinds and jump around like a rabbit, so if I used that approach, I could argue that this is true.

Jer 16:19-21
19 O LORD, my strength and my fortress,
My refuge in the day of affliction,
The Gentiles shall come to You
From the ends of the earth and say,
"Surely our fathers have inherited lies,
Worthlessness and unprofitable things."
20 Will a man make gods for himself,
Which are not gods?
21 "Therefore behold, I will this once cause them to know,
I will cause them to know
My hand and My might;
And they shall know that My name is the LORD.
NKJV

Ex 23:13
13 And in all that I have said to you, be circumspect and make no mention of the name of other gods, nor let it be heard from your mouth.
NKJV

Isa 45:14
And there is no other;
There is no other God.'"
NKJV

If you want to promote men becoming Gods or that some attributes can be gioven to men which the Bible gives solely to God, then you must establish that in scripture. If you cannot do so, your claim is baseless.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Theway]

If they do not believe that JS should be placed in a position of equality with God, that is good, and they should speak out against this heretical hymn.

I think it would be allot easier and save allot of time if we just told the one maybe two people who believe that thats what the hymn says that they are wrong ......wait a minuet that didn't seem to have worked did it...

 

[Toms777]

I think it would be allot easier and save allot of time if we just told the one maybe two people who believe that thats what the hymn says that they are wrong ......wait a minuet that didn't seem to have worked did it...

That works for those who cannot read what it says.

 

[TOmNossor]

That works for those who cannot read what it says.

Toms777,



It is a pity that you will not allow LDS to interpret what THEY mean when THEY sing the songs in THEIR hymnal. If you want to sing the song, it can mean to you whatever you like, but every LDS here and every LDS ever encountered by every LDS here have told you that YOU MISUNDERSTAND.

This is the witness of thousands of LDS.

Please continue to say to LDS that we believe Joseph Smith is above Jesus Christ. Even LDS children will not be fooled by such foolishness.



Charity, TOm

 

[Toms777]

Toms777,
It is a pity that you will not allow LDS to interpret what THEY mean when THEY sing the songs in THEIR hymnal. If you want to sing the song, it can mean to you whatever you like, but every LDS here and every LDS ever encountered by every LDS here have told you that YOU MISUNDERSTAND.

This is the witness of thousands of LDS.

Please continue to say to LDS that we believe Joseph Smith is above Jesus Christ. Even LDS children will not be fooled by such foolishness.

Charity, TOm

Okay, so if I said that the LDS church were teaching a cult teaching blasphemous heresy, and I told you that this was to be interpreted as meaning that they teach good things, then you would have believe me regardless of what the words said....is that what you are telling me?

So if we see opeople taking poisoned cool-aid in the Heaven's Gate cult and they say that they are going to meet the spaceship, we should accept their interpretation and ignore that which we see and can prove to be true?

If a leader, prophet and apostle of the LDS church tells us that it is a gospel doctrine that men become Gods and that God was once a man, and a member of the LDS says that they interpret it to mean that God was always God, should I believe that member of the LDFS church that this long dead prophet and apostle meant to say the opposite of what he said?

 

[TOmNossor]

Okay, so if I said that the LDS church were teaching a cult teaching blasphemous heresy, and I told you that this was to be interpreted as meaning that they teach good things, then you would have believe me regardless of what the words said....is that what you are telling me?

So if we see opeople taking poisoned cool-aid in the Heaven's Gate cult and they say that they are going to meet the spaceship, we should accept their interpretation and ignore that which we see and can prove to be true?

If a leader, prophet and apostle of the LDS church tells us that it is a gospel doctrine that men become Gods and that God was once a man, and a member of the LDS says that they interpret it to mean that God was always God, should I believe that member of the LDFS church that this long dead prophet and apostle meant to say the opposite of what he said?

Toms777:

Okay, so if I said that the LDS church were teaching a cult teaching blasphemous heresy, and I told you that this was to be interpreted as meaning that they teach good things, then you would have believe me regardless of what the words said....is that what you are telling me?



TOm:

I am telling you that the words of the SONG you posted do not say that Joseph Smith is above Christ. And they do not. You have no right to interpret a LDS hymn for LDS.

Now your above statement has a clear meaning unlike the song.



Toms777:
So if we see opeople taking poisoned cool-aid in the Heaven's Gate cult and they say that they are going to meet the spaceship, we should accept their interpretation and ignore that which we see and can prove to be true?



TOm:

First, if you think you can prove what happened to the soul of the Heaven’s Gate folks you are the one who deifies yourself.

Second, if the Heavens Gate people say, I believe that God lives on a Haley’s comet. Then you say that they believe God is restricted to orbiting the sun. They could correct you and say that actually Haley’s comet is a space ship and God only chooses to orbit the sun because of course he could do other things. You would need to let them define their believes. Get it?



Toms777:
If a leader, prophet and apostle of the LDS church tells us that it is a gospel doctrine that men become Gods and that God was once a man, and a member of the LDS says that they interpret it to mean that God was always God, should I believe that member of the LDFS church that this long dead prophet and apostle meant to say the opposite of what he said?

TOm:

This has nothing to do with this thread at all, but it is our scriptures that say that God was always God. I have shown you a very simple and not even heretical in your eyes way to right the eternal God with the Lorenzo Snow’s couplet, but instead of listening you continue to try to make the CoJCoLDS look self contradictory. How about you at least state what I said in your own words. Then when you understand my position you can attack it rather than continue to erect straw men.



Charity, TOm

 

[MormonFriend]

Well now some of your friends here are arguing that men can become gods and are even trying deparately to find Bible verses to support their position. Now you are telling me that you disagree.


Which god dop you worship? Mormonism teaches that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three gods, so if you worship one of these gods, which is it? Or is it the Father of God the father, or another god?

Doctrine can only be established on the presence of a teaching in the Bible, not the absecne of something. For insatnce, the Bible does not say that you have an IQ of 10, weigh 6000 pouinds and jump around like a rabbit, so if I used that approach, I could argue that this is true.

Jer 16:19-21
19 O LORD, my strength and my fortress,
My refuge in the day of affliction,
The Gentiles shall come to You
From the ends of the earth and say,
"Surely our fathers have inherited lies,
Worthlessness and unprofitable things."
20 Will a man make gods for himself,
Which are not gods?
21 "Therefore behold, I will this once cause them to know,
I will cause them to know
My hand and My might;
And they shall know that My name is the LORD.
NKJV

Ex 23:13
13 And in all that I have said to you, be circumspect and make no mention of the name of other gods, nor let it be heard from your mouth.
NKJV

Isa 45:14
And there is no other;
There is no other God.'"
NKJV

If you want to promote men becoming Gods or that some attributes can be gioven to men which the Bible gives solely to God, then you must establish that in scripture. If you cannot do so, your claim is baseless.

It is too simple. We were created in His image and LIKENESS. If we realize our full potential, we will have used our Free Will by obeying Him.

 

[Toms777]

I am telling you that the words of the SONG you posted do not say that Joseph Smith is above Christ. And they do not. You have no right to interpret a LDS hymn for LDS.

You avoided the question. Now, I asked whether to believe Joseph Smith was a God or equal to God was inc oncert with LDS doctrine and a LDS mermber answered that it was. I read in the words in the songs and what I read is in concert with LDS doctrine.

Then you tell me not to believe what I can clearly and specifically read and what another LDS member said.

First, if you think you can prove what happened to the soul of the Heaven’s Gate folks you are the one who deifies yourself.

So you believe that by drinking the poisoned drink they may have gone to a space ship?

 

[Toms777]

It is too simple. We were created in His image and LIKENESS. If we realize our full potential, we will have used our Free Will by obeying Him.

Where does the Bible say that we can become God or gods by obeying him?

 

[TOmNossor]

[/size][/font]

You avoided the question. Now, I asked whether to believe Joseph Smith was a God or equal to God was inc oncert with LDS doctrine and a LDS mermber answered that it was. I read in the words in the songs and what I read is in concert with LDS doctrine.

Then you tell me not to believe what I can clearly and specifically read and what another LDS member said.


So you believe that by drinking the poisoned drink they may have gone to a space ship?

Toms777,

Tell me the name of this LDS member. I am positive I or his Bishop can convince him he is mistaken.



This is not what I really believe, but what I heard on the radio really was said:

I heard a Protestant minister on the radio say that after a pastor has been at a certain church for a long period of time the congregation places the pastor in Christ’s place. You obviously worship you pastor or soon will. You just do not know it. This is against the Bible. I speak authoritatively because I heard a Protestant Minister say this.

The above is not what I really believe.



I am certain you encountered a very confused LDS or you misunderstood him. I have seen you tell people that you know what they believe even if they do not know what they believe. I must assume that you have fallen pray to your own ability to see in LDS exactly what you to see.

Until you provide a name and I can independently verify that you understood I will believe that this is just another thing in the long line of things I have seen you at best misunderstand.



Charity, TOm

 

[Toms777]

Tell me the name of this LDS member. I am positive I or his Bishop can convince him he is mistaken.

Check the mesages on this thread.

This is not what I really believe, but what I heard on the radio really was said:

I heard a Protestant minister on the radio say that after a pastor has been at a certain church for a long period of time the congregation places the pastor in Christ’s place. You obviously worship you pastor or soon will. You just do not know it. This is against the Bible. I speak authoritatively because I heard a Protestant Minister say this.

I have heard protestant pastor who claim this authority and I have seen it happen in churches.

But that is not what we are talking about here.

 

[MormonFriend]

Where does the Bible say that we can become God or gods by obeying him?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matthew5:48)

Much of the Bible tells us how to accomplish this. But we must obey those things to get any results.

 

[Toms777]

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matthew5:48)

Much of the Bible tells us how to accomplish this. But we must obey those things to get any results.

This does not say that we can become God or gods. Thinsg can be perfect without being God or gods.

Show me where in the Bible it says that we can become gods or God.

 

[TOmNossor]

[/size][/font]

Check the mesages on this thread.

[/size][/font]

I have heard protestant pastor who claim this authority and I have seen it happen in churches.

But that is not what we are talking about here.

This thread is 30 pages long. Most of it I have read and missed this poor misguided LDS. If you can direct me to 2-3 pages, I will search diligently. But I didn't see this as I have been reading over the past couple of weeks.

Charity, TOm

 

[MormonFriend]

This does not say that we can become God or gods. Thinsg can be perfect without being God or gods.

Show me where in the Bible it says that we can become gods or God.

Am I a "thing?" Are you a "thing?"

(Are you from Missouri, the "Show Me" State?