• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Praise to the Man!

Status
Not open for further replies.

fatboys

Senior Veteran
Nov 18, 2003
9,231
280
72
✟68,575.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
ah_muse said:
Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum fled to Iowa to avoid arrest, but they were accused of being cowards and urged to return to save Nauvoo from the possibility of destruction. They finally went to Carthage, Illinois, where they were arrested for destroying the printing press. The Smiths were allowed to post bail for this offense but were then held on a charge of treason against the State of Illinois. While they were being held at Carthage a mob attacked the jail and both Joseph and Hyrum were shot dead by their assailants.
Although Joseph Smith found himself in trouble with the Masons, he gave the Masonic signal of distress just before he was murdered. In his book concerning Masonry, William Morgan gives this information concerning what a Mason is supposed to do "in case of distress": "The sign is given by raising both hands and arms to the elbows, perpendicularly, one on each side of the head, the elbows forming a square. The words accompanying this sign, in case of distress, are, 'O LORD, MY GOD! is there no help for the widow's son?' " (Freemasonry Exposed, p. 76)

John D. Lee claimed that Joseph Smith used the exact words that a Mason is supposed to use in case of distress: "Joseph left the door, sprang through the window, and cried out, 'OH, LORD, MY GOD, IS THERE NO HELP FOR THE WIDOW'S SON!'" (Confessions of John D. Lee, reprint of 1880 ed., p. 153)

Other accounts seem to show that Joseph Smith used the first four words of the distress cry. According to the History of the Church, Joseph Smith "fell outward into the hands of his murderers, exclaiming. 'O LORD, MY GOD!' " (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 618) Less than a month after Joseph and Hyrum Smith were murdered, the following appeared in the Mormon publication, Times and Seasons:
"...with uplifted hands they gave such SIGNS OF DISTRESS as would have commanded the interposition and benevolence of Savages or Pagans. They were both MASONS in good standing. Ye brethren of 'the mystic tie' what think ye! Where is our good MASTER Joseph and Hyrum? Is there a pagan, heathen, or savage nation on the globe that would not be moved on this great occasion, as the trees of the forest are moved by a mighty wind? Joseph's last exclamation was 'O LORD MY GOD!' " (Times and Seasons, Vol. 5, p. 585)

The Mormon writer E. Cecil McGavin admitted that Joseph Smith gave the Masonic signal of distress: "When the enemy surrounded the jail, rushed up the stairway, and killed Hyrum Smith, Joseph stood at the open window, his martyr-cry being these words, 'O Lord My God!' This was NOT the beginning of a prayer, because Joseph Smith did not pray in that manner. This brave, young man who knew that death was near, started to repeat THE DISTRESS SIGNAL OF THE MASONS, expecting thereby to gain the protection its members are pledged to give a brother in distress. "In 1878, Zina D. Huntington Young said of this theme, 'I am the daughter of a Master Mason; I am the widow of the Master Mason who, when leaping from the window of Carthage jail, pierced with bullets, MADE THE MASONIC SIGN OF DISTRESS, but those signs were not heeded except by the God of Heaven.' " (Mormonism and Masonry, by E. Cecil McGavin, page 17)
On page 16 of the same book, Mr. McGavin quotes the following from the Life of Heber C. Kimball, p. 26: " 'Joseph, leaping the fatal window, GAVE THE MASONIC SIGNAL OF DISTRESS.' "

Most Mormons believe that Joseph Smith died without putting up a struggle, but the actual truth is that he died in a gun fight.

Joseph Smith's prophecy that he would prevail against his enemies is found in the Nauvoo Neighbor for June 19, 1844:
"I therefore, in behalf of the Municipal Court of Nauvoo, warn the lawless, not to be precipitate in any interference in our affairs, for as sure as there is a God in heaven, WE SHALL RIDE TRIUMPHANT OVER ALL OPPRESSION.

"JOSEPH SMITH, Mayor"

Just eight days after Joseph Smith made this prophecy he was murdered in the Carthage jail, and before two years had elapsed the Mormons were driven from Illinois.

FB: I can not believe that we are still on this topic. You are talking about a man who was murdered by a mob, who had evidence that in any court in the Land except Missouri that he had done anything to warrant death. He was betrayed by Governer Ford, who promised to protect him and his friends from harm. And you are making a stink over what man stated as he jumped to his death from a second story building into a mob below who was firing through the window. At that time the Church and the Masons were connected as members of the leadership were all part of Masons. A bid so what. Joseph Smith did not have alot to do with Masons, but other leaders did. I just find it so totally amazing that you try and make more out of it. I do know that Masons were given a bad name as conspiritors against the governement or they were unchrisitan. This begin during the late 20's early 30's, and this topic that Joseph Smith was trying to appeal to his unchristian friends below in the Mob that murdered him, was some sort of an appeal. Pure speculation and just a plain silly as a topic against Joseph Smith. It is just another way to make the church and Joseph Smith look less as a prophet, and invalidate the greak work God did through this restoration.
 
Upvote 0

emerald Dragon

Well-Known Member
Oct 27, 2003
1,023
74
39
Upstate New York
✟1,562.00
Faith
TOMS777:
again, show me in the Bible where it states that these ttributes belong SOLEY to God. While in the bible, these attributes refer to the Godhead, they don't have to refer to them outside of the bible. Nowhere in the Bible are your arguments proven, that I can see.

The bible also does not condemn us for praising certain men. We can prais whom we wish, but only worship God. If we didn't use praise, there would be no compliments, and what a rude world this would become.
 
Upvote 0

Toms777

Contributor
Nov 14, 2003
5,961
133
Citizen of Heaven, currently living in the world,
Visit site
✟21,899.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
emerald Dragon said:
TOMS777:
again, show me in the Bible where it states that these ttributes belong SOLEY to God. While in the bible, these attributes refer to the Godhead, they don't have to refer to them outside of the bible. Nowhere in the Bible are your arguments proven, that I can see.
You have been shown scripture numerous times, you simply deny it and provide no defense. If you have a rebuttal, bring ti forward, otherwise these protestations simply say to me that you have no counter argument that can be supported by the Bible.

The more you make this evident, the more it is obvious to many of us that you are unable to substantiate your position.
 
Upvote 0

Toms777

Contributor
Nov 14, 2003
5,961
133
Citizen of Heaven, currently living in the world,
Visit site
✟21,899.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
futureyouthpastor85 said:
alrighty i love how no one replied to muse's comments.

Muse, you obviously dont know what youre talking about
^ Sarcasm directed at stupidity lol
Kindly dispense with the personal attacks and deal with the issue.

futureyouthpastor85 said:
Lets face it: the Mormon hymn gives praise to man (wow, the title sure didnt give that one away). Praise is reserved to God. The verses given by the oposing side is irrelevant because in light of the context, those refer to praise as in "Good job" not "Your name is greater than all of ours, you stand at heaven and let us in!"
Funny, it seems to me that the only people who are focusing in on praise being given to a man are the Mormon who put up strawman to attack.

The issue is not the praise, but rather the attributes which belong solely to God being attributed by the Mormons to Joseph Smith.
 
Upvote 0

emerald Dragon

Well-Known Member
Oct 27, 2003
1,023
74
39
Upstate New York
✟1,562.00
Faith
You obviously don't see what I am sying Tom. I want you to show me where it says that those attributes belong ONLY to GOD or CHRIST. You keep showing me scriptures that DO give these attributes to them, but the scriptures do NOT say that they are only GOD's or CHRIST's attributes. That is my defense. It is the best one, and so far, you have'nt defended against it. Please, hear what I am saying. Show me where it gives theses attributes ONLY to the Godhead. I await a response to this question.
 
Upvote 0

Toms777

Contributor
Nov 14, 2003
5,961
133
Citizen of Heaven, currently living in the world,
Visit site
✟21,899.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
emerald Dragon said:
You obviously don't see what I am sying Tom. I want you to show me where it says that those attributes belong ONLY to GOD or CHRIST. You keep showing me scriptures that DO give these attributes to them, but the scriptures do NOT say that they are only GOD's or CHRIST's attributes. That is my defense. It is the best one, and so far, you have'nt defended against it. Please, hear what I am saying. Show me where it gives theses attributes ONLY to the Godhead. I await a response to this question.
And you have been answered numerous times. If you have a Bible based response then please let's see it. Otherwise, your conitnuie commenst along this line are weakening the appearance of your position by showing us that you have no defense.
 
Upvote 0

DCP 32° K.T

Active Member
Oct 5, 2003
381
9
✟567.00
Faith
Christian
Toms777 said:
...The more you make this evident, the more it is obvious to many of us that you are unable to substantiate your position.
Yet, I posted a response that showed that praise was indeed expressed to humans with the sanction of God. You merely stated that it was irrelevant. I don't see how that is so, considering that praise is indeed extended to both humans and to God there. Its just that the majority of the praise goes to God.
 
Upvote 0

Toms777

Contributor
Nov 14, 2003
5,961
133
Citizen of Heaven, currently living in the world,
Visit site
✟21,899.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
DCP said:
Yet, I posted a response that showed that praise was indeed expressed to humans with the sanction of God. You merely stated that it was irrelevant. I don't see how that is so, considering that praise is indeed extended to both humans and to God there. Its just that the majority of the praise goes to God.
The fact that there is praise was never raised as a point that I saw by anyone but Mormons, and then as a strawman to avoid the fact that the song attributes qualities to Joseph Smith which belong solely to God.

the strawman tries to evade rather than deal with the question at hand.
 
Upvote 0

fatboys

Senior Veteran
Nov 18, 2003
9,231
280
72
✟68,575.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Toms777 said:
The fact that there is praise was never raised as a point that I saw by anyone but Mormons, and then as a strawman to avoid the fact that the song attributes qualities to Joseph Smith which belong solely to God.

the strawman tries to evade rather than deal with the question at hand.


FB: Tom Is perfection a quality of God? If it is and we are to become Perfect then tell me what other qualities of God we are suppose to acquire? If a person has these qualities that are Godlike qualities, and this person is sang about, it does not take away from God. But Gives thanks to God that we could have a great man in our day. By the way, the Ever great name is also refering to all the great Josephs, such as the one sold into Egypt, and the Step Father of the Son of God. How many songs have you sany at Christmas time which has Joseph and Mary in them?
 
Upvote 0

Toms777

Contributor
Nov 14, 2003
5,961
133
Citizen of Heaven, currently living in the world,
Visit site
✟21,899.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
fatboys said:
FB: Tom Is perfection a quality of God? If it is and we are to become Perfect then tell me what other qualities of God we are suppose to acquire? If a person has these qualities that are Godlike qualities, and this person is sang about, it does not take away from God. But Gives thanks to God that we could have a great man in our day. By the way, the Ever great name is also refering to all the great Josephs, such as the one sold into Egypt, and the Step Father of the Son of God. How many songs have you sany at Christmas time which has Joseph and Mary in them?
You again are setting up strawmen, Why do you not address the issues that raised? Show me from the Bible how you substantiate your position.

Your opinion, though of interest, is not the basis for doctrine. the Bible is.
 
Upvote 0

fatboys

Senior Veteran
Nov 18, 2003
9,231
280
72
✟68,575.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Toms777 said:
You again are setting up strawmen, Why do you not address the issues that raised? Show me from the Bible how you substantiate your position.

Your opinion, though of interest, is not the basis for doctrine. the Bible is.

The only strawman is what you bring to the Table, you have not explained why we can not sing a praise which is not worship to a prophet who restored Christ's church back the earth.
 
Upvote 0

Toms777

Contributor
Nov 14, 2003
5,961
133
Citizen of Heaven, currently living in the world,
Visit site
✟21,899.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
emerald Dragon said:
TOMS777:
again, show me in the Bible where it states that these ttributes belong SOLEY to God. While in the bible, these attributes refer to the Godhead, they don't have to refer to them outside of the bible. Nowhere in the Bible are your arguments proven, that I can see.

The bible also does not condemn us for praising certain men. We can prais whom we wish, but only worship God. If we didn't use praise, there would be no compliments, and what a rude world this would become.
Unless you can actually show us some substantiation for your views rather than putting up unsubstantiated comments and strawmen, I will ignore further posts since I do not see that they are contribyuting anything to the thread.
 
Upvote 0

Toms777

Contributor
Nov 14, 2003
5,961
133
Citizen of Heaven, currently living in the world,
Visit site
✟21,899.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
fatboys said:
The only strawman is what you bring to the Table, you have not explained why we can not sing a praise which is not worship to a prophet who restored Christ's church back the earth.

You can praise who you wish, but once you asatrt attributing attributes which are God's alone to him, it crosses the line to blasphemy.

I have explained it several times.

1) The song refers to his great name. This is similar to what scripture says about Jesus name being above all names. throughout scripture, the term "great name" is used primarily to apply to God:

Example:

Josh 7:8-9
8 O Lord, what shall I say when Israel turns its back before its enemies? 9 For the Canaanites and all the inhabitants of the land will hear it, and surround us, and cut off our name from the earth. Then what will You do for Your great name?"
NKJV

2) "Kings shall extol him and nations rever him" refers to Smith in the song, but the Bible uses the term extol solely to apply to God, for example:

Ps 68:4
4 Sing to God, sing praises to His name;
Extol Him who rides on the clouds,
By His name YAH,
And rejoice before Him.
NKJV

3) "Great is his glory" refers to Smith in the song, but the Bible says:

Luke 21:27-28
27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
NKJV

4) "..and endless his priesthood" refers to Smith's priesthood in the song:

Heb 7:21
"The LORD has sworn
And will not relent,
'You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek' "),
NKJV

This refers to Jesus in the Bible.

5) "Ever and ever the keys he will hold. " refers to Smith in the song.

In the Bible, it is Jesus who holds the keys:

Rev 1:18-19
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

6) "Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom," in this song speaks of Smith's kingdom. In the Bible, the kingdom belongs to God.

2 Tim 4:1-2
4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:
NKJV

7) "Earth must atone for the blood of that man"

Jesus Christ alone died for the sins of man. This is a denial of the true gospel in scripture.

Heb 2:17-18
17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
NKJV

8) "Mingling with Gods".

This of course is contrary to the Bible:

Isa 44:8
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.'"
NKJV

The song therefore attempts to elevate Joseph Smith to equivalency with God.
 
Upvote 0

DCP 32° K.T

Active Member
Oct 5, 2003
381
9
✟567.00
Faith
Christian
The only strawman I see is Tom's repeated failure to interpret the hymn within the interpretive framework of Mormon theology. This repeated failure sets up all sorts of strawmen because no Mormon will ever interpret this hymn either as equating Joseph Smith or as making him equivalent to God himself. This is Tom's model strawman from which he constructs his others. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!
 
Upvote 0

calgal

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2003
2,015
48
Western MI
Visit site
✟24,975.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Toms777 said:
Unless you can actually show us some substantiation for your views rather than putting up unsubstantiated comments and strawmen, I will ignore further posts since I do not see that they are contribyuting anything to the thread.
You are a lot more optimistic than I am regarding substance in the LDS replies. Merry Christmas to you Tom!
 
Upvote 0

Toms777

Contributor
Nov 14, 2003
5,961
133
Citizen of Heaven, currently living in the world,
Visit site
✟21,899.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
DCP said:
The only strawman I see is Tom's repeated failure to interpret the hymn within the interpretive framework of Mormon theology. This repeated failure sets up all sorts of strawmen because no Mormon will ever interpret this hymn either as equating Joseph Smith or as making him equivalent to God himself. This is Tom's model strawman from which he constructs his others. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!
It does not matter how a Mormon chooses to interpret it - the reality is that it equate Joseph Smith with God.
 
Upvote 0

PreacherJoe

Active Member
Dec 18, 2003
59
4
55
Illinois
Visit site
✟22,699.00
Faith
Christian
Obviously this is an LDS hymn and it will be supported here by Mormons and not by the rest of us so I will not comment on the hymn itself but rather on the issue that causes the division here. Joseph Smith was not a prophet from god any more than I am and neither did God inspire him to write a Testament especially not one that contradicts the bible.

God inspired the bible.
(2 Tim. 3:16)-All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

He Promised to Preserve His Word
(Mat. 24:35)-Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

I also believe that God was Involved in Aiding the Canonization of Scripture
And that the bible is our all sufficient rule of faith and practice. There are no new revelations at least not that we could call scripture or divinely inspired.

(1 Cor. 13:8)-Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
(9)-For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
(10)-But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(11)-When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
(12)-For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
(13)-And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Concerning the canonization it is no coincidence that Genesis is the first book in the bible revealing the origins of man and also that the Revelation is the capstone revealing the things hereafter. In the Revelation John gives this warning from the Lord....

(Rev. 22:18)-For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
(19)-And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Jesus Christ is My God
(John 10:30)-I and my Father are one.

(John 14:9)-Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

(John 20:25)-The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
(26)-And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
(27)-Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
(28)-And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
(29)-Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Why didn't Jesus rebuke Thomas' confession ? Why did he actually commend him for his faith in this matter ?

Jesus Christ Was In the Begininng With God and He Is the Creator
Compare :

(Gen 1:1)-In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

(John 1:1)-In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2)-The same was in the beginning with God.
(3)-All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

This Word was Jesus Christ :
(John 1:14)-And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

If you have never accepted Christ fully I implore you to do so.
(Mat. 10:32)-Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
(33)-But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.