Praise to the Man!

[DCP 32° K.T]

It does not matter how a Mormon chooses to interpret it - the reality is that it equate Joseph Smith with God.

The reality is that the author of the hymn certainly did NOT equate Joseph Smith with God. The reality is that those who are Mormons and who sing this hymn once in a blue moon do not see it as equating Joseph Smith with God. The reality is that you are projecting your own interpretive framework upon one alien to your own and you refuse to do ought but see the hymn through your own polarized glasses. What is not reality is how you interpret it outside of the necessary interpretive framework for proper comparative religious study and dialogue. Sad to say it, but, were you my student I'd flunk you.

 

[fatboys]

People, this is Tom's character. He does not and will not change his mind on anything, no matter what the evidence, no matter how silly or trivial. All are mountains to Tom. He is like a pit bull and does not know that he is biting a tank. Needs to open his eyes and look up.

 

[Toms777]

People, this is Tom's character. He does not and will not change his mind on anything, no matter what the evidence, no matter how silly or trivial. All are mountains to Tom. He is like a pit bull and does not know that he is biting a tank. Needs to open his eyes and look up.

Deal with the issue - Don't attack people!

 

[Serapha]

People, this is Tom's character. He does not and will not change his mind on anything, no matter what the evidence, no matter how silly or trivial. All are mountains to Tom. He is like a pit bull and does not know that he is biting a tank. Needs to open his eyes and look up.

Hi there!



Lu 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:




~serapha~

 

[DCP 32° K.T]

...Lu 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: ...

Note the conditions upon those who are saved or are adherents. This alone refutes the salvation by grace alone and salvation by faith alone theories that abound.

 

[Serapha]

Note the conditions upon those who are saved or are adherents. This alone refutes the salvation by grace alone and salvation by faith alone theories that abound.

Hi there!



This thread isn't about "salvation by grace".


~serapha~

 

[MormonFriend]

..... i did read your analogy post. but i find it irrelevant. we are talking about a hymn. in this hymn, very specific things are said. i'm a writer, lifetime reader, and a philospher. interpreting what is exactly said is what i am good at. .....

The purpose of my analogy is to demonstrate that specific and exact words are not necessarily understood by the reader in the light and interpretation of the writer. If what I am presenting is true, then you can only get better at what you are already good at.

I wish to take this slow and deliberate, one point at a time.

Question: Does God hide "understanding" from men?

 

[DCP 32° K.T]

...This thread isn't about "salvation by grace". ...

Nor is it about judging and forgiving others.

At any rate, the fact remains that neither Mormons nor the original author of the hymn ever intended or understood this hymn to equate Joseph Smith with God. To claim so is to set up a strawman and a red herring or two.

 

[MizDoulos]

Reminder to all: There have been comments considered flaming on some of these pages, and these types of statements are not allowed. If anyone cannot respond in a civil, kind manner, please move on to another thread or forum. Consider this an unofficial warning to those participating. Any further rule violations will result in warnings and/or the closing of the thread.

Thank you.

 

[Toms777]

Nor is it about judging and forgiving others.

At any rate, the fact remains that neither Mormons nor the original author of the hymn ever intended or understood this hymn to equate Joseph Smith with God. To claim so is to set up a strawman and a red herring or two.

Two points:

1) How do you know what he "intended"? (And I would question this since quotes can be found by other Mormon leaders which make statements clearly in agreement with what this hymn says).

2) Even if he did not intend it to say what it does, does that make it okay to say it (assuming that you can validate that point)? If the statements present false teachings, would it not be best simply not to use the hymn?

 

[DCP 32° K.T]

...1) How do you know what he "intended"? (And I would question this since quotes can be found by other Mormon leaders which make statements clearly in agreement with what this hymn says).

One can infer this by reading other comments of the individual who wrote the hymn. Did he claim that Joseph Smith was God? The answer to this is a solid no. If you are aware of one document written by the author of the hymn that equates Joseph Smith with God or states that he is God, you might be able to make your point. I should like to see the other statements that support your interpretation of the hymn. I suppose you are going to make me have to dig out my Mormon book collection in preparation?

At any rate, look at what others (particularly Mormons) say about the hymn. Did the composer tell others that it equated Joseph Smith with God? Did an editorial appear that stated that Joseph Smith was God? The answer is, to my knowledge, no.

2) Even if he did not intend it to say what it does, does that make it okay to say it (assuming that you can validate that point)? If the statements present false teachings, would it not be best simply not to use the hymn?

Who cares? I'm sure that most Mormons would not say that the hymn contains false doctrine and whether Mormons use the hymn is relevant only to your own faith tradition. Yet, the Mormons themselves are the authority on the true meaning and significance of the hymn. You are interpreting it from the outside looking in rather fhan from the inside. Seriously, you have heard from several Mormons themselves here that they do not equate Joseph Smith with God and do not see the song as doing so. Whether the song is incorrect or not is solely a matter of theology. You really have got to stop projecting your own theological predilections onto a Mormon text. Unless you do that, you never will be able to dialogue with them without misrepresenting what they believe. It really is that simple.

You must come at it with an understanding of LDS teaching. Do they believe that there is a plurality of Gods? Yes. Do they believe that there are more holders of the priesthood than one? Yes. Do they believe that there will be others who will receive great glory? Yes. Do the Mormons believe that people will be endued with attributes of God? Yes. In this context can the meaning of the hymn be found not in your external context that contains beliefs foreign to Mormonism.

Yet, even the Bible is rather direct in stating that people will participate in various attibutes and even in the nature of Deity itself, ruling over angels and the cosmos, sitting on the throne with Jesus and the Father, obtaining the glory of Jesus Christ and taking upon them various attributes of God. But, in no case do these teachings equate individual Christians with God. So is it with this hymn you seem so fond of misrepresenting via your own theological predilections and biases.

 

[MormonFriend]

One can infer this by reading other comments of the individual who wrote the hymn. Did he claim that Joseph Smith was God? The answer to this is a solid no. If you are aware of one document written by the author of the hymn that equates Joseph Smith with God or states that he is God, you might be able to make your point. I should like to see the other statements that support your interpretation of the hymn. I suppose you are going to make me have to dig out my Mormon book collection in preparation?

At any rate, look at what others (particularly Mormons) say about the hymn. Did the composer tell others that it equated Joseph Smith with God? Did an editorial appear that stated that Joseph Smith was God? The answer is, to my knowledge, no.


Who cares? I'm sure that most Mormons would not say that the hymn contains false doctrine and whether Mormons use the hymn is relevant only to your own faith tradition. Yet, the Mormons themselves are the authority on the true meaning and significance of the hymn. You are interpreting it from the outside looking in rather fhan from the inside. Seriously, you have heard from several Mormons themselves here that they do not equate Joseph Smith with God and do not see the song as doing so. Whether the song is incorrect or not is solely a matter of theology. You really have got to stop projecting your own theological predilections onto a Mormon text. Unless you do that, you never will be able to dialogue with them without misrepresenting what they believe. It really is that simple.

You must come at it with an understanding of LDS teaching. Do they believe that there is a plurality of Gods? Yes. Do they believe that there are more holders of the priesthood than one? Yes. Do they believe that there will be others who will receive great glory? Yes. Do the Mormons believe that people will be endued with attributes of God? Yes. In this context can the meaning of the hymn be found not in your external context that contains beliefs foreign to Mormonism.

Yet, even the Bible is rather direct in stating that people will participate in various attibutes and even in the nature of Deity itself, ruling over angels and the cosmos, sitting on the throne with Jesus and the Father, obtaining the glory of Jesus Christ and taking upon them various attributes of God. But, in no case do these teachings equate individual Christians with God. So is it with this hymn you seem so fond of misrepresenting via your own theological predilections and biases.

Very well spoken! Thanks DCP!!

 

[MormonFriend]

Lu 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
~serapha~

¶ Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.(Matthew7:6)

How can one do this without some form of judgement? Obviously there are situations that require this form of judgement.

I think that FB has nailed the real issue.

 

[calgal]

I guess the Mormon belief that Joseph Smith will be the one who allows folks into Heaven is "just a couplet" (Gordy Hinckley quote)

 

[emerald Dragon]

Toms777:

Again, I cannot see your argument. I see that these attributes are given to God, but nowhere can I see that they have been given soley to God. My argument, and proof, as you are asking for, are the same scriptures that you use. I says, yes, that God has attributes and characteristics. But it DOESN't say that these belong SOLEY to God.

Secondly, the Mormon church, and the members of it, do not hold Joseph Smith above or ln the same level with God or Christ. We hold him above most other men, but not above the members of the Godhead. This is accepted church doctrine, and the hymn does not suggest otherwise.

 

[Toms777]

Toms777:

Again, I cannot see your argument. I see that these attributes are given to God, but nowhere can I see that they have been given soley to God. My argument, and proof, as you are asking for, are the same scriptures that you use. I says, yes, that God has attributes and characteristics. But it DOESN't say that these belong SOLEY to God.

Secondly, the Mormon church, and the members of it, do not hold Joseph Smith above or ln the same level with God or Christ. We hold him above most other men, but not above the members of the Godhead. This is accepted church doctrine, and the hymn does not suggest otherwise.

Do you believe that Joseph Smith is or will become a god? Yes or No.

 

[fatboys]

Do you believe that Joseph Smith is or will become a god? Yes or No.

FB: Tom why ask this question? We believe we all have the potential of become like the Father this includes . This includes Joseph Smith. As distasteful as it may seem to you. The fact that we have a song which praises the accomplishments that he was able to do as a mortal man is something we can sing praises about.

 

[DCP 32° K.T]

I guess the Mormon belief that Joseph Smith will be the one who allows folks into Heaven is "just a couplet" (Gordy Hinckley quote)

This is a rather bizarre response. Methinks you have lost your objectivity. What I would like to know is how it is that a couple statements quipped from not-so-readily-available printed sources can be construed as "Mormon belief"? This is a curiosity to me. Please explain.

 

[Toms777]

FB: Tom why ask this question? We believe we all have the potential of become like the Father this includes . This includes Joseph Smith.

Then you have no basis for saying that the author of the song was not trying to equate Joseph Smith to equality with God. That is a basic tenet of Mormonism (but completely in opposition to the Bible).

Your statement has proved the validity of my original position.

 

[DCP 32° K.T]

...Your statement has proved the validity of my original position.

If the hymn said that Joseph Smith was now a god or something like that, you might have a point. But, because it does not state that Joseph Smith is a god your original position falls flat on its face. Again, it is how the Mormons interpret and understand the hymn, not how, you, as an outsider looking in who will not take the time to listen to Mormons themselves, interpret it under the shadow of your own theological predilections, that matters.