Praise to the Man!

[Toms777]

I choose not to judge, as I do not judge the mob who killed Joseph Smith. Not to discount the reality or horror of these happenings, we may not have all the information. You are well aware that those doing research on the presented events often have an agenda against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It is my opinion that that very angle is your motivating factor in selecting research material.

You say that you do not judge, then you immediately judge the motives of others doing the reserach and myself. You therefore have judged and cannot claim to be objective.

You have clearly also not done much reserach into these events, nor checked out the links because some of the information comes from one leader in one of the massacres, who says that he did so upons orders from the LDS church leadership and other information is from independent third parties.

Regardless, this thread is about a hymn. A hymn celerating a Prophet whom the Lord called (meaning Joseph Smith accepted his calling under the Lord, thru Him, not over or above Him).

A hyman that gives Joseph attributes that belong solely to God. That was the point and that has not be refuted.

 

[Toms777]

I condemn all violence, Tom, regardless of the faith that it was 'committed under.

What about if it was done on behalf of and under the ddirection of the leadership?

 

[spike]

I reach the same conclusion, Tom. Perhaps you missed my point in that post. I condemn it regardless of the leadership, or lack of, that organized or committed it. Regardless of theology or affiliation. I do not play favorites.

I suppose you will tell me how this relates to the subject, now?

 

[arizona_sunshine]

Tom777: You say that you do not judge, then you immediately judge the motives of others doing the reserach and myself. You therefore have judged and cannot claim to be objective.

az_sun: Nice move, I have been gotten again. Nevertheless, I have developed an opinion on the motivation behind this research, and you did nothing to refute it. I will not judge the guilty parties of said horrors, I never claimed to be objective about your pointed commentary.

Tom777: You have clearly also not done much reserach into these events, nor checked out the links because some of the information comes from one leader in one of the massacres, who says that he did so upons orders from the LDS church leadership and other information is from independent third parties.

az_sun: No I havent, and it would profit me nothing to do so. I have enough to read, I have a lot more scripture than you do, you know.

Tom777: A hyman that gives Joseph attributes that belong solely to God. That was the point and that has not be refuted.

az_sun: I have countered your stand on this matter to my satisfaction. You have igonored cited scripture, insights I had on Brigham Young commentary, as well as a multitude of members of the church telling you that you are mistaken.

You have selected from my message what you could to paint my commentary in as poor light as possible, well done.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

A hyman that gives Joseph attributes that belong solely to God.

Furthermore, watch your spelling.

 

[Toms777]

I reach the same conclusion, Tom. Perhaps you missed my point in that post. I condemn it regardless of the leadership, or lack of, that organized or committed it. Regardless of theology or affiliation. I do not play favorites.

I suppose you will tell me how this relates to the subject, now?

Okay, so if the leadership of a religion orders the massacre of civilians, that does not say anything negative about the religion? Is that your position?

 

[Toms777]

Furthermore, watch your spelling.

I always have told people that if I had to type for a living, I'd die poor and starving.

 

[MormonFriend]

Tom777: You say that you do not judge, then you immediately judge the motives of others doing the reserach and myself. You therefore have judged and cannot claim to be objective.

az_sun: Nice move, I have been gotten again.

No az, you have not been gotten. Everyone knows that we should not judge another. Yet we were counseled not to cast our pearls before swine. Wouldn't that require some form of judgement? The obvious factor is that we cannot judge the position of an individual in God's sight, but we can certainly judge whether a person is acting within the guidelines of God's will.

 

[fatboys]

No az, you have not been gotten. Everyone knows that we should not judge another. Yet we were counseled not to cast our pearls before swine. Wouldn't that require some form of judgement? The obvious factor is that we cannot judge the position of an individual in God's sight, but we can certainly judge whether a person is acting within the guidelines of God's will.

We are to judge between good and evil, but we are not to judge others unto condemnation. For with that same judgement and level of Judgment we will be judged by. If Tom posts material about the church, doctrine, etc. we can judge whether it be truth or error. We can not judge the person of Tom, but we can judge whether or not he is anti mormon or not. We can not say that because Tom has chosen to make negative remarks he will be going to Hell. We can judge the remarks and take the necessary steps to answer them. The problem is that Tom feels that since we call him a anti mormon, that we are condemning him to Hell. We are not. We are saying that he opposes our beliefs.

 

[fatboys]

Nothing that I said justified violence against anyone. Indeed I am opposed to such violence. If you are also, I hope that you will join me in condemening the violence of the Mormons against innocent civilians:

http://www.onlineutah.com/historyrockwell.shtml

http://historytogo.utah.gov/hmearlyut1.html

http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/lee_mm.htm

http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/hickman.htm

http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/blood.htm

http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/hicklhm.htm

Yes, violence is wrong. Will you stand for justice in these cases as well and can we stand together to condemn both the mob killing of Smith and the murders by the Mormons of innocent civilians?

FB: This is where you get your unbiased information about the church? You have never read anti mormon material? I promise you Tom that Jerald and Sandra Tanner are pure anti mormon. I had had several discussions with them and although I don't care to muchf or Jerald, Sandra is more pleasant to have discussions with. None the less they are anti mormon. Can't you post something that is not from anti mormon website? Not one bit of research is from your own. Have you ever read accounts or material from pro LDS articles. Here is a link on the what you think is the Banking scandal. http://www.aros.net/~wenglund/35endnote2.htm. Try and read from a different view point.

I have been getting emails from a new age believer. I have not received much from her for a while until about three days ago. She has sent me information about 9/11 and the governments involvement. They have taken the videos that were taken of the crashes and took them apart frame by frame. They believe that the planes were army planes painted to look like passager planes. That the whole 9/11 was a sick plot to justify going into Iraq. I have looked at their information and if I was paranoid, I could almost believe it. Even in todays world where we have instant access to parts around the world, yet you can take things and twist them into something different than what it was. So sad that people have to look for evil when it is everywhere.

 

[ah_muse]

You knew him personally?

Joseph Smith in the History of the Church, volume 5,page 335:"I am not so much a 'Christian' as many suppose I am. When a man undertakes to ride me for a horse, I feel disposed to kick up and throw him off, and ride him."

 

[ah_muse]

Hi there!



and that famous martyr.... what were his last words?

~serapha~

John D. Lee claimed that Joseph Smith used the exact words that a Mason is supposed to use in case of distress: "Joseph left the door, sprang through the window, and cried out, 'OH, LORD, MY GOD, IS THERE NO HELP FOR THE WIDOW'S SON!'" (Confessions of John D. Lee, reprint of 1880 ed., p. 153)
Other accounts seem to show that Joseph Smith used the first four words of the distress cry. According to the History of the Church, Joseph Smith "fell outward into the hands of his murderers, exclaiming. 'O LORD, MY GOD!' " (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 618) Less than a month after Joseph and Hyrum Smith were murdered, the following appeared in the Mormon publication, Times and Seasons:

"...with uplifted hands they gave such SIGNS OF DISTRESS as would have commanded the interposition and benevolence of Savages or Pagans. They were both MASONS in good standing. Ye brethren of 'the mystic tie' what think ye! Where is our good MASTER Joseph and Hyrum? Is there a pagan, heathen, or savage nation on the globe that would not be moved on this great occasion, as the trees of the forest are moved by a mighty wind? Joseph's last exclamation was 'O LORD MY GOD!' " (Times and Seasons, Vol. 5, p. 585)

The Mormon writer E. Cecil McGavin admitted that Joseph Smith gave the Masonic signal of distress: "When the enemy surrounded the jail, rushed up the stairway, and killed Hyrum Smith, Joseph stood at the open window, his martyr-cry being these words, 'O Lord My God!' This was NOT the beginning of a prayer, because Joseph Smith did not pray in that manner. This brave, young man who knew that death was near, started to repeat THE DISTRESS SIGNAL OF THE MASONS, expecting thereby to gain the protection its members are pledged to give a brother in distress. "In 1878, Zina D. Huntington Young said of this theme, 'I am the daughter of a Master Mason; I am the widow of the Master Mason who, when leaping from the window of Carthage jail, pierced with bullets, MADE THE MASONIC SIGN OF DISTRESS, but those signs were not heeded except by the God of Heaven.' " (Mormonism and Masonry, by E. Cecil McGavin, page 17)

On page 16 of the same book, Mr. McGavin quotes the following from the Life of Heber C. Kimball, p. 26: " 'Joseph, leaping the fatal window, GAVE THE MASONIC SIGNAL OF DISTRESS.' "

 

[ScribbledPaper]

I'm new here, but I would like to mention that even Joseph Smith's face has changed and evolved. He went from somewhat of a homely man, to someone who looks like he should belong on the front of a romance novel. Why not show him for who he really was? Why does he have to be evolved into someone he doesn't even resemble?

 

[Toms777]

No az, you have not been gotten. Everyone knows that we should not judge another. Yet we were counseled not to cast our pearls before swine. Wouldn't that require some form of judgement? The obvious factor is that we cannot judge the position of an individual in God's sight, but we can certainly judge whether a person is acting within the guidelines of God's will.

There is difference between judging doctrine/actions and judging the motives of the heart.

I'd be happy to provide scripture supporting this f you don't agree.

 

[Toms777]

We are to judge between good and evil, but we are not to judge others unto condemnation. For with that same judgement and level of Judgment we will be judged by. If Tom posts material about the church, doctrine, etc. we can judge whether it be truth or error. We can not judge the person of Tom, but we can judge whether or not he is anti mormon or not. We can not say that because Tom has chosen to make negative remarks he will be going to Hell. We can judge the remarks and take the necessary steps to answer them. The problem is that Tom feels that since we call him a anti mormon, that we are condemning him to Hell. We are not. We are saying that he opposes our beliefs.

We almost agreed there, FB, but no I never assumed that you were condemning me to hell, for one because you cannot do so, and second because I don't think that you intended it to be taken that way. The thought actually never entered my mind.

It appears to me that you use the term simply as a personal attack, a slur, name-calling against those with whom you disagree, since no other value comes from such name-calling or labeling. What would you do if I called you anti-Christian?

Why can't we move beyond this? Why do you feel that you right to insult and attack others is something that is beyond questioning?

 

[Toms777]

I promise you Tom that Jerald and Sandra Tanner are pure anti mormon.

Show me a single quote where they expressed hatred for individual Mormons.

(I went through this with another gent who tried to prove that Richard Abanes was anti-Mormon and failed to do so).

If you cannot do so, then you are simply making a personal attack against these people.

 

[MormonFriend]

There is difference between judging doctrine/actions and judging the motives of the heart.
QUOTE]

Which of these two differences cause a person to be so loathsome that Jesus would classify them as swine?

My all time favorite Calvin and Hobbs cartoon was when Calvin asked Hobbs if God judges us by our actions or by what is in our hearts? Hobbs responded that our actions are the result of what is in our hearts. I am certain that this good Christian Cartoonist was on the money with that perspective.

 

[MormonFriend]

Joseph Smith in the History of the Church, volume 5,page 335:"I am not so much a 'Christian' as many suppose I am. When a man undertakes to ride me for a horse, I feel disposed to kick up and throw him off, and ride him."

I have no idea what your connection is here.

 

[MormonFriend]

I'm new here, but I would like to mention that even Joseph Smith's face has changed and evolved. He went from somewhat of a homely man, to someone who looks like he should belong on the front of a romance novel. Why not show him for who he really was? Why does he have to be evolved into someone he doesn't even resemble?

Having seen his plaster death mask, there is remarkable resembelence to the artists' works. Joseph certainly had no say so in how he is protrayed.

For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

(Isaiah53:2)

Why do artists portray Jesus so handsomely?

Not meaning to open a big can of worms here, but why do women wear makeup? Is that not mis-representing who or what they really are? (Hope my wife and daughter don't see this one!)

 

[ah_muse]

Tom, you have way too much time on your hands, and a wild imagination.

The History of the Church contains some statements which show that Joseph Smith felt he was almost equal with God:

I am a lawyer; I am a big lawyer and comprehend heaven, earth and hell, to bring forth knowledge that shall cover up all lawyers, doctors arid other big bodies (vol. 5, p.289).

Don't employ lawyers, or pay them for their knowledge, for I have learned that they don't know anything. I know more than they all (vol. 5, p.467).

I combat the errors of ages; I meet the violence of mobs; I cope with illegal proceedings from executive authority; I cut the gordian knot of powers, and I solve mathematical problems of universities, with truth-diamond truth; and God is my "right hand man" (vol. 6, p.78).

If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them.... [Joseph Smith boasted that he did more than Jesus to keep a church together]... "God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . " (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408-409).
​

Heber C. Kimball, a member of the first Presidency under Brigham Young, said that the time would come when people would "prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a God, and also upon Brigham Young, our Governor in the Territory of Deseret" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p.88).

Brigham Young, October 9, 1859
Intelligence, Etc.
Remarks by President BRIGHAM YOUNG,
delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, October 9, 1859.
Reported by G. D. Watt
Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p.282-91​

Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians ... that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. ... every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit-world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true.​

I will now tell you something that ought to comfort every man and woman on the face of the earth. Joseph Smith, junior, will again be on this earth dictating plans and calling forth his brethren to be baptized for the very characters who wish this was not so, in order to bring them into a kingdom to enjoy, perhaps, the presence of angels or the spirits of good men, if they cannot endure the presence of the Father and the Son; and he will never cease his operations, under the directions of the Son of God, until the last ones of the children of men are saved that can be, from Adam till now.

Should not this thought comfort all people? They will, by-and-by, be a thousand times more thankful for such a man as Joseph Smith, junior, than it is possible for them to be for any earthly good whatever. It is his mission to see that all the children of men in this last dispensation are saved, that can be, through the redemption. You will be thankful, every one of you, that Joseph Smith, junior, was ordained to this great calling before the worlds were.

Mormons do attempt to elevate Joseph Smith to equivalency with God.
Mormons rely on Joseph Smith for their SALVATION according to their Prophet Brigham Young.