Praise to the Man!

[fatboys]

Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins,
Stain Illinois* while the earth lauds his fame.

FB: Joseph Smith was betrayed by the leaders of Illinois, and the blood which was shed in innocence since in this country you are presumed innocent, did not give a chance to have his day in court. Many times who was accused, arrested and found innocent even amoung the enemies that placed him in custody.

Care to tell me why a stain is on Illinois for the death of Jesus?

FB: It is not speaking about Jesus Christ. It is speaking about the martyrdom of Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith was innocent of charges, and was not even given a chance to defend his honor and intregity.

How about this line:

Millions shall know "brother Joseph" again.

Since when is "Jesus" known as "Joseph"?

FB: This is not speaking about Jesus. Brother Joseph was well known in the pre-existance as was many of the great and noble spirits who became prophets and spiritual leaders here on earth. On earth they do not know Brother Joseph as they did in heaven, but have forgotten all. Once the vail is rent and our previous life is brought to our rememberance we will know Bother Joseph again.

No, you need to read the words more carefull. For your benefit, here is the entire hymn again. If someone told you that the song is about Jesus, they were either equally ignorant of the words to the songs or were trying to deceive you. I understand the gospel, but this song teaches about a false gospel, a different gospel and a false jesus, a false messiah.

FB: You can read anything you want into the song, it is a song written in memory of the slain prophet seer and revelator, Joseph Smith. There is nothing wrong in honoring his name and his tireless efforts to do Gods work in the restoration. If you could just read the accomplishments and the work he did do, you would not be so critical of him.


Tom, I understand that you do not agree with our beliefs. But you are misinterpreting the song and its meaning. It is not scripture, and we sing this to give honor to a great man. It disturbs me that you accuse us of somthing that we are not guilty of. It is also sad that you never seem to be able to accept answers given. You only want to look at it one way, your way.

 

[DCP 32° K.T]

You need to read the words more carefully, unless you are trying to tell me that Joseph Smith is Jesus Christ. Look at these words:

Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins,
Stain Illinois* while the earth lauds his fame.

Care to tell me why a stain is on Illinois for the death of Jesus?

'Twould probably help if you quoted from the actual hymnbook used by the Mormons in their English worship services. The relevant lines read:

Praise to his memory, he died as a martyr;
Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins,
Plead unto heaven while the earth lauds his fame.
​

On the matter of staining Illinois, you have to consider that that hymn was written shortly after the martyrdom. In addition, this was the case until the blood was cleaned off the floor and the land blessed. 'Stained with the blood of [x] did not have salvific significance. It was a mere colloquial phrase from the period.

How about this line:

Millions shall know "brother Joseph" again.

Since when is "Jesus" known as "Joseph"?

He isn't and he never was. This is your interpretation of the hymn. Why not let the Mormons tell you what they believe about this hymn and what it means instead of you telling them over and over something that they do not believe? To Mormons (and probably quite a few non-Mormons) you seem quite inept at understanding LDS teaching on any given subject.

 

[Toms777]

FB: Joseph Smith was betrayed by the leaders of Illinois, and the blood which was shed in innocence since in this country you are presumed innocent, did not give a chance to have his day in court. Many times who was accused, arrested and found innocent even amoung the enemies that placed him in custody.

FB: It is not speaking about Jesus Christ. It is speaking about the martyrdom of Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith was innocent of charges, and was not even given a chance to defend his honor and intregity.

FB: This is not speaking about Jesus. Brother Joseph was well known in the pre-existance as was many of the great and noble spirits who became prophets and spiritual leaders here on earth. On earth they do not know Brother Joseph as they did in heaven, but have forgotten all. Once the vail is rent and our previous life is brought to our rememberance we will know Bother Joseph again.

FB: You can read anything you want into the song, it is a song written in memory of the slain prophet seer and revelator, Joseph Smith. There is nothing wrong in honoring his name and his tireless efforts to do Gods work in the restoration. If you could just read the accomplishments and the work he did do, you would not be so critical of him.

Tom, I understand that you do not agree with our beliefs. But you are misinterpreting the song and its meaning. It is not scripture, and we sing this to give honor to a great man. It disturbs me that you accuse us of somthing that we are not guilty of. It is also sad that you never seem to be able to accept answers given. You only want to look at it one way, your way.

Intersting...so you agree that it is about Joseph Smith. One of your Mormon brothers was telling us that the song was about Jesus, not Joseph Smith.

The song is clearly giving attributes to Smith that belong solely to God. I also disagree with your history. Mob killings are not right, but there is a reason why the citizens were so upset that they took the law into their own hands.

Joseph Smith was a man who was found guilty of small time deception by using seer stones to get money from people claiming to be able to find things hidden underground, who later was reported to be involved in bank fraud and polygamy, even with teenage girls. I am do not agree with your protrayal of Smith as a great man.

 

[Toms777]

[/font]



'Twould probably help if you quoted from the actual hymnbook used by the Mormons in their English worship services. The relevant lines read:

Praise to his memory, he died as a martyr;

Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins,
Plead unto heaven while the earth lauds his fame.

​

I am sorry, I should have noted that I was quotibng the original words of the hymn which shows clearly who the author was devoting the hymn to. More recently the words were chnaged to remove the reference to Illinois, that is true, but that does not chnage the fact that hymn is about Joseph Smith, giving him attributes due only to God.

You may not have been aware of the chnaging of the words and I should have noted that.

 

[DCP 32° K.T]

...You may not have been aware of the chnaging of the words and I should have noted that.

I think it would surprise you what I know. I actually wanted to make the point that you should refer to current texts in most of what you address to Mormons. It is true that the song is about Joseph Smith and Jehovah's calling him. It is not really a hymn of praise except in the sense found of other human individuals in the Bible. For example, consider the following:

NASB 2 Samuel 14:25 Now in all Israel was no one as handsome as Absalom, so highly praised; from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head there was no defect in him.​

NAU Proverbs 27:2 Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; A stranger, and not your own lips.​

NASB Proverbs 27:21 The crucible is for silver and the furnace for gold, And each is tested by the praise accorded him.
​

NASB Proverbs 31:30 Charm is deceitful and beauty is vain, But a woman who fears the LORD, she shall be praised.
​

NASB Song of Solomon 6:9 But my dove, my perfect one, is unique: She is her mother's only daughter; She is the pure child of the one who bore her. The maidens saw her and called her blessed, The queens and the concubines also, and they praised her, saying...

NASB Isaiah 62:7 And give Him no rest until He establishes And makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
​

NASB Zephaniah 3:19 "Behold, I am going to deal at that time With all your oppressors, I will save the lame And gather the outcast, And I will turn their shame into praise and renown In all the earth.​

NASB Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
​

NASB 1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.​

Now, granted that these times are in the minority, they are nonetheless forms of praise. Praise does not belong exclusively to God, therefore. However, the Bible is explicitly clear that one should praise God continually, and that praise intended for God is to be given to God alone. Yet, there are other kinds of praise, now aren't there? Why then cannot this same analogy be extended to the Mormons and their interpretation of the hymn?​

 

[fatboys]

Intersting...so you agree that it is about Joseph Smith. One of your Mormon brothers was telling us that the song was about Jesus, not Joseph Smith.

The song is clearly giving attributes to Smith that belong solely to God. I also disagree with your history. Mob killings are not right, but there is a reason why the citizens were so upset that they took the law into their own hands.

Joseph Smith was a man who was found guilty of small time deception by using seer stones to get money from people claiming to be able to find things hidden underground, who later was reported to be involved in bank fraud and polygamy, even with teenage girls. I am do not agree with your protrayal of Smith as a great man.

Tom, you have got to be kidding. If the whole of our teachings of eternal progression is to be like God, and a great prophet has died at the hands of a mob, then you are straining at a knat, and you are going to swallow a camel. Do you know what really irks me? Is the fact that you think that it was Joseph Smiths fault that he was killed. You say that you don't agree with mobs, but he had to do something to make them mad. Let me say this again. Joseph Smith did nothing, and I mean nothing that warranted him to be killed in any court and in any state except Missouri, which had a extermination order on its books until 1976. This order was for any mormon. Even if every story and rumor was true about him, that did not warrant his death. The mood you portray as it not being a total horrible event just places you on the level of the same biased closed minded anti mormons who write their material for only one reason. To destroy.

 

[Toms777]

I think it would surprise you what I know. I actually wanted to make the point that you should refer to current texts in most of what you address to Mormons. It is true that the song is about Joseph Smith and Jehovah's calling him. It is not really a hymn of praise except in the sense found of other human individuals in the Bible. For example, consider the following:

[snip for brevity]

Now, granted that these times are in the minority, they are nonetheless forms of praise. Praise does not belong exclusively to God, therefore. However, the Bible is explicitly clear that one should praise God continually, and that praise intended for God is to be given to God alone. Yet, there are other kinds of praise, now aren't there? Why then cannot this same analogy be extended to the Mormons and their interpretation of the hymn?​

I was not focusing on the praise but rather what type of praise and attributes that they were giving to Joseph Smith, and those attributes were ones which belonged solel;y to God.

Nothing that you said addressed that point.

 

[Toms777]

Tom, you have got to be kidding. If the whole of our teachings of eternal progression is to be like God, and a great prophet has died at the hands of a mob, then you are straining at a knat, and you are going to swallow a camel. Do you know what really irks me? Is the fact that you think that it was Joseph Smiths fault that he was killed. You say that you don't agree with mobs, but he had to do something to make them mad. Let me say this again. Joseph Smith did nothing, and I mean nothing that warranted him to be killed in any court and in any state except Missouri, which had a extermination order on its books until 1976. This order was for any mormon. Even if every story and rumor was true about him, that did not warrant his death. The mood you portray as it not being a total horrible event just places you on the level of the same biased closed minded anti mormons who write their material for only one reason. To destroy.

Ad hominem argument.
Name calling is not permitted on the site.

Deal with the issue, don't attack the person. When you attack the person, it simply discredits your position by indicating that you have run out of ways to deal with the issue.

 

[calgal]

Indeed it does. Mormonism believes that man can become a God and thus they have no issue with praising a man.

I am sure that Joseph Smith now realizes the difference between himself and God!!

And that Jupiter Talismans and Magic underwear are not flame resistant!

 

[ah_muse]

Today the Joseph Smith of Mormon adoration is a highly romanticized version of the real Joseph Smith. His personal character was far from the saintly image his followers mold him into. His strong egotism and drive for power, together with his deceptive practices led ultimately to his destruction.

 

[MormonFriend]

Today the Joseph Smith of Mormon adoration is a highly romanticized version of the real Joseph Smith. His personal character was far from the saintly image his followers mold him into. His strong egotism and drive for power, together with his deceptive practices led ultimately to his destruction.

You knew him personally?

 

[arizona_sunshine]

Today the Joseph Smith of Mormon adoration is a highly romanticized version of the real Joseph Smith. His personal character was far from the saintly image his followers mold him into. His strong egotism and drive for power, together with his deceptive practices led ultimately to his destruction.

Interesting how readily some "Christians" condone murder.

Joseph Smith was murdered less than 200 years ago in the United States--- a country founded by men who's righteous desires were to establish freedom, specifically freedom of religion.

As Noah, Moses and Captain Moroni, Joseph Smith was firm in the faith and did not waver from it. This is not egotism. Many, many believe he was not deceptive.

For the sake of those who believe he is a prophet of God, please do not dismiss his murder by a blood-thirsty mob as "he had it comin'.''

As I have said before: Faith is precious, let us give one another equal consideration.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

And that Jupiter Talismans and Magic underwear are not flame resistant!

This commentary is neither edifying nor informative.

 

[Toms777]

This commentary is neither edifying nor informative.

Perhaps not, but both true and humorous.

 

[spike]

Mob killings are not right, but there is a reason why the citizens were so upset that they took the law into their own hands.

Toms777~

As a newbie on the boards, I have been silent for the last few days, and prefer to be so while I educate myself on the viewpoints expressed by the participants. However, I found this statement to be rather disturbing, completely irresposible and lacking in the understanding of man's violent nature.

Mob violence has certainly seen the death of many an innocent person thru the ages. Fear of what is not understood is what drives men to hatred prejudice, and violence - often with tragic results. I am sure that I could entertain you with numerous related incidents throughout time where this is the case, but I suppose that I need only to mention the more historically recent ones - say, the persecution of Jews in Nazi Germany, or the killings of blacks in our own country by 'citizens' who felt that they needed to 'take the law' into their own hands, led by lies and hatred.

There exists a process for uncovering the truth which is built into the mechanism of this country's government - our legal system - and it echoes the mechanism that is built into the mind of any man that is willing to put aside unreasonable, emotive reaction to ascertain the truth - the ability to think for ourselves and control our actions - and not resort to 'mob violence'. Once we surrender that control, we have descended into a hell from which the return is, if ever, painfully rent with sorrow and the unpleasant circumstance that many innocent lives before us have been unjustly taken.

And, although I have been given wise counsel by the friend next to me not to mention this potentially inflaming comment, I might point out that 'mob mentality' didn't exactly help Jesus in the last days. This comment does not invite you to state that I attempt to compare J. Smith with Jesus; I do not, in my eyes. No one who has walked this earth can stand equal to Christ. I just wish to point out the startling result of mob rule in that situation. I realize that you stated that mob rule 'is not right', but the following sentiment that 'there is a reason why the citizens were so upset..' seems to justify the fear, hatred and ignorance response that has gotten us into situations with such tragic ramifications so many times...

Take Care, and have a safe holiday season,

-spike-

 

[arizona_sunshine]

Perhaps not, but both true and humorous.

Tom777?

Now critic of comedy? Wow, who wudda thunk?

 

[fatboys]

Today the Joseph Smith of Mormon adoration is a highly romanticized version of the real Joseph Smith. His personal character was far from the saintly image his followers mold him into. His strong egotism and drive for power, together with his deceptive practices led ultimately to his destruction.

FB: Perhaps your right, but is he the exact person the anti's and you portray him to be? I have journals from my ancestors who knew him personally. These were good people, who Joseph Smith had compassion for. Joseph Smith had not money, yet he shared what he did have. I know of a instance where a friend knew he had little at home and gave him some ham and flour. But on his way home Joseph Smith gave it to a family on his way home who literally had nothing to eat. I could tell you many other stories about his kindness and compassion. And if he was a fraud, when the mobs came to get him from Nauvoo, and he was safely on the other side of the Missippi, he came back so the Mobs would not hurt, kill members in Nauvoo looking for him. He knew that if he gave up, then he would die. Yes that sounds like a fraud. And Cal go on about a jupiter Talimans which he never had as if to say this was reason enough to murder him. I realize that your brains are trying to bring up every reason to hate Joseph Smith. Why? If you are out of the church, leave. You can hate every thing about the church, but to promote lies about Joseph Smith and the church is a wasted effort. Live your own lives and get on with it.

 

[Toms777]

Toms777~

As a newbie on the boards, I have been silent for the last few days, and prefer to be so while I educate myself on the viewpoints expressed by the participants. However, I found this statement to be rather disturbing, completely irresposible and lacking in the understanding of man's violent nature.

Mob violence has certainly seen the death of many an innocent person thru the ages. Fear of what is not understood is what drives men to hatred prejudice, and violence - often with tragic results. I am sure that I could entertain you with numerous related incidents throughout time where this is the case, but I suppose that I need only to mention the more historically recent ones - say, the persecution of Jews in Nazi Germany, or the killings of blacks in our own country by 'citizens' who felt that they needed to 'take the law' into their own hands, led by lies and hatred.

There exists a process for uncovering the truth which is built into the mechanism of this country's government - our legal system - and it echoes the mechanism that is built into the mind of any man that is willing to put aside unreasonable, emotive reaction to ascertain the truth - the ability to think for ourselves and control our actions - and not resort to 'mob violence'. Once we surrender that control, we have descended into a hell from which the return is, if ever, painfully rent with sorrow and the unpleasant circumstance that many innocent lives before us have been unjustly taken.

And, although I have been given wise counsel by the friend next to me not to mention this potentially inflaming comment, I might point out that 'mob mentality' didn't exactly help Jesus in the last days. This comment does not invite you to state that I attempt to compare J. Smith with Jesus; I do not, in my eyes. No one who has walked this earth can stand equal to Christ. I just wish to point out the startling result of mob rule in that situation. I realize that you stated that mob rule 'is not right', but the following sentiment that 'there is a reason why the citizens were so upset..' seems to justify the fear, hatred and ignorance response that has gotten us into situations with such tragic ramifications so many times...

Take Care, and have a safe holiday season,

-spike-

Nothing that I said justified violence against anyone. Indeed I am opposed to such violence. If you are also, I hope that you will join me in condemening the violence of the Mormons against innocent civilians:

http://www.onlineutah.com/historyrockwell.shtml

http://historytogo.utah.gov/hmearlyut1.html

http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/lee_mm.htm

http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/hickman.htm

http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/blood.htm

http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/hicklhm.htm

Yes, violence is wrong. Will you stand for justice in these cases as well and can we stand together to condemn both the mob killing of Smith and the murders by the Mormons of innocent civilians?

 

[arizona_sunshine]

Nothing that I said justified violence against anyone. Indeed I am opposed to such violence. If you are also, I hope that you will join me in condemening the violence of the Mormons against innocent civilians:

http://www.onlineutah.com/historyrockwell.shtml

http://historytogo.utah.gov/hmearlyut1.html

http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/lee_mm.htm

http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/hickman.htm

http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/blood.htm

http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/hicklhm.htm

Yes, violence is wrong. Will you stand for justice in these cases as well and can we stand together to condemn both the mob killing of Smith and the murders by the Mormons of innocent civilians?

I choose not to judge, as I do not judge the mob who killed Joseph Smith. Not to discount the reality or horror of these happenings, we may not have all the information. You are well aware that those doing research on the presented events often have an agenda against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It is my opinion that that very angle is your motivating factor in selecting research material.

No one escapes the justice of God except thru the Redeemer.

Ted Bundy was a member of this church, my dad went to Sunday School with him in Utah. Rode in his car. Ward had a fast for him when he was arrested in Florida. Upstanding member of the church, no? Hardly. One of the most heinous men in recent history.

Does that shake my testimony of the Gospel? Never.

Regardless, this thread is about a hymn. A hymn celebrating a Prophet whom the Lord called (meaning Joseph Smith accepted his calling under the Lord, thru Him, not over or above Him).

The life and dedication of Joseph Smith stirs my heart toward Christ. For me, his fruits are good, and they bless my life daily.

 

[spike]

Nothing that I said justified violence against anyone. Indeed I am opposed to such violence. If you are also, I hope that you will join me in condemening the violence of the Mormons against innocent civilians: (gives examples)

I condemn all violence, Tom, regardless of the faith that it was 'committed under'. The truth is, you will have difficulty finding any faith that has been in existence for any period of time (well, perhaps Buddhists - they're all so darn peaceful!) that does not have some record of violent or grievous acts connected to it or it's members. One would only have to look at the record of Early Christianity and the actions of the Catholic Church during its darkest days of power in developing Europe to see examples that, if cut'n'pasted as references, wouldn't fill this message board to the maximum allowable limit (even young schoolkids can name examples). Still, these are events concocted and carried out by men - not Jesus - these things do not shake my faith in him, nor render his teachings moot, regardless of whether they are presented within the LDS context or any of a number of Christian theological offshoots of the standard Catholic old-line guard.

I don't even know that the mob that stormed the prison and killed Smith was primarily composed of adherants to any particular religion. It is interesting that you chose to work this angle in submitting your rebuttal of grievous acts committed by Mormons.

Again, the point is that your choice of wording was poor. We all make mistakes sometimes; actually, I'm quite good at doing so, and will expect to be called on my blunders by others when I make them. That is the only way that we, as humans, learn - by mistake. Digging yourself into a hole by creating a new argument out of it - and a red herring at that - does nothing to correct the situation.

Have a Great Day ~

-spike-