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LivingWordUnity

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I freely admit that at high levels there have been no pro-life democrats of national importance since Bob Casey. But my point is it is not absolute dogma. And an argument can be made that the heritage of eugenics informs just as many political concepts on the right as the left.

America has a predilection toward Eugenics as well as a sad history of supporting it. And it still infects both ends of our political dialog.
Unrestricted abortions is like a dogma to the Left in that it's written in the Democratic party's national party platform (using euphemisms for it) which is like a political version of a creed. Of course, that doesn't mean that a Democrat can't disagree with it. But the fact that there can be a Democrat who disagrees with it doesn't change the fact that it's the official stand of the party. It's like how in the Catholic Church dogma is still dogma and our Creed is still the Creed even when a Catholic disagrees with it.
 
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Davidnic

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It's a dogma in that it's written in the Democratic party's national party platform which is like a political version of a creed. Of course, that doesn't mean that a Democrat can't disagree with it. But the fact that there can be a Democrat who disagrees with it doesn't change the fact that it's the official stand of the party. It's like how in the Catholic Church dogma is still dogma and our Creed is still the Creed even when a Catholic disagrees with it.

That is not a valid comparison at all actually. The Creed is infallible. It is not the same to disagree with a party platform. You can not disagree with the Creed and be Catholic. You can disagree with your party and still change it. You can not disagree with the Creed and change it. You can disagree with a political party and change it.
 
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Davidnic

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You're right we're going to disagree because everything I've ever read about her and Planned Parenthood indicates that she basically start it because she saw women dying from 5 pregnancies 7 years and poverty and ignorance of health everywhere around her.

In the manifesto of the America Birth Control League (which, in part, became PP) she lists (along with health concerns):

"The burden of supporting these unwanted types has to be borne by the healthy elements of the nation. Funds that should be used to raise the standard of our civilization are diverted to the maintenance of those who should never have been born."
(The Thinker, Apr. 1924, pp. 49-51. , Margaret Sanger Microfilm, Collected Documents Series C16:219 .)

That is part of the League's founding statement, in addition to her concerns over health. So she did create it to carry out a Eugenic agenda as well as one she saw as health related.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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That is not a valid comparison at all actually. The Creed is infallible. It is not the same to disagree with a party platform. You can not disagree with the Creed and be Catholic. You can disagree with your party and still change it. You can not disagree with the Creed and change it. You can disagree with a political party and change it.
I didn't say that their political platform is infallible. Abortion is totally evil, so the Democratic party's statement of beliefs about it in their national party platform is totally in error. I compared it to a creed because a creed is a statement of the beliefs of a group of people. And I compared it to a dogma because of how forcefully the leadership of the party pushes it and believes in it. Do you know of anyone who supports abortion who believes that they could be wrong about it?
 
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Davidnic

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Do you know of anyone who supports abortion who believes that they could be wrong about it?

Anecdotally yeah. I know dozens of people who believed in it had doubts and eventually changed their minds. I know a lot of people who support it but are very unsteady and unsure about it. And I know lots more who support it without even thinking about what it really is. I've seen peoples hearts change about it many times when they are engaged as individuals rather than as a generalized cliche.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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Anecdotally yeah. I know dozens of people who believed in it had doubts and eventually changed their minds. I know a lot of people who support it but are very unsteady and unsure about it. And I know lots more who support it without even thinking about what it really is. I've seen peoples hearts change about it many times when they are engaged as individuals rather than as a generalized cliche.
The anecdotal examples are the exception to the rule, and they don't change the official stand of the Democratic party. I used to be a Democrat, and I chose to leave it because I could see that the party was overwhelmingly Pro-Abortion and hostile to anyone who doesn't believe in abortion. I know that there are some Pro-Life Democrats, but they are very rare. We know this by just looking at the votes in Congress whenever there is an abortion-related issue. The latest example was the vote on whether or not to defund Planned Parenthood. In the vote, there were only a couple of token Democrats who did not side with Planned Parenthood while all the rest sided with it. And it was exactly the opposite with the Republican votes.
 
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Davidnic

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I am not saying being a Pro-Life Democrat isn't hard or rare. Bob Casey Sr. Gave a good speech on being a Pro-Life Democrat and how it is incompatible with the heart of what the party is. I often quote it in conversation with friends who want to find something different in their party because Abortion does not sit well with them. And, there are many young people who feel that way. Sadly congress had a powerful Pro-Life Democrat representation for the first time right before the Tea Party congressional landslide. The Tea Party took many seats from Pro-Life and Blue Dog Democrats. It really weakened them as a political force. But as far as the speech...Here are some excerpts. I find it resonates with young Democrats:

given by Bob Casey Sr. At Notre Dame in 1995.

I put it here rather than the political subforum because it is in Archbishop chaputs book and is a very Catholic speech:

We must ask ourselves, "Where today does conscience call us?" What is the deepest source of the unease that's documented in survey after survey across this country. It is deep, and it's basic, and it's powerful. I believe that a great majority of people in America know the answer to that question. The silent figure at the center of our great cultural debate is the unborn child. For a generation now - over twenty years - we've lived with abortion on demand. It was sold to America, this idea, as a kind of a social cure, a resolution. Instead, it has left us wounded and divided. We were promised it would broaden the circle of freedom. Instead, it has narrowed the circle of humanity. We were told the whole matter was settled and would soon pass from our minds. Twenty years later, it tears at our souls. And so, it is for me the bitterest of ironies that abortion on demand found refuge .. found a home - and it pains me to say this - found a home in the National Democratic Party. My party, the party of the weak, the party of the powerless.

You see, to me, protecting the unborn child follows naturally from everything I know about my party and about my country. Nothing could be more foreign to the American experience than legalized abortion. It is inconsistent with our national character, with our national purpose, with all that we've done, and with everything we hope to be.

You know, for eight years, I served as governor of Pennsylvania. All the problems that America confronts today, health care, the level of taxation, education, economic growth, crime, welfare, the environment - you name it, a state like Pennsylvania - we see it all. All these things are important, they're very important. They concern the day to day business of government. They were my life for eight years. But, in the end, they are relative problems. And they demand relative solutions. They are about how we shall live as a people in America. Of course the economy is or urgent concern to everyone, and properly so - the issue of how we make our livelihood, how we pay our bills, how we invest for our future. But the need to protect the unborn child is just as urgent as the economic concerns that confront our country.

In the case of the unborn child we're dealing not just with our livelihoods, but with lives... not just how comfortably we will live, but how comfortably we will live with our consciences. Think about it, why do all parties to this debate routinely call abortion a "social issue"? Because deep down we know that the fate of one life touches us all. In a way, all the talk about values misses the point. Because we are talking about a thing of infinite value. Human life cannot be measured. It is the measure itself. The value of everything else is weighed against it. The abortion debate is not about how we shall live, but who shall live. And more than that, it's about who we are.

The fundamental question posed is this: once a child has been conceived, what is the proper response of a good society - of America at her best? If pregnancy presents a challenge, do we as a society rise to the challenge by dispensing with the child? And when a pregnancy comes at a difficult time, what is the worthier response? Do we surround mother and child with protection and love, or do we hold out to her the cold comfort of a trip to an abortionist? Where is our true character as a nation to be seen - let's ask ourselves this question: Where is our true character to be seen, in an adoptive home, or in an abortion clinic? Who are we? Who are we America? That question deserves an answer. And what woman is truly empowered, I ask you, the woman who takes life, or the woman who gives life?

You know, I've asked this question before, but I must ask it again. Since when does America, the strongest, the most powerful country in the world, abandon in despair an entire class of people - the most defenseless, innocent, and vulnerable members of the human family? How can we justify with our experience in this country - our tradition, our heritage, our history - how can we justify writing off the unborn child in a country which prides itself on leaving no one out and no one behind?

You see, I believe the American people know the answer to these questions. They know that abortion is not worthy of a great nation. It's like few other issues we've ever faced, when you think about it. Other causes demand commitment, abortion demands complicity. Other causes survive by energy and attention. The survival of the abortion industry - and it an industry - depends upon avoidance and silence. Look at our history.

All the great causes have marched under proud banners and declaratory words that summon people to action. But this cause goes under eerie, elusive euphemisms; like "choice". They talk about the "procedure" and they talk about "termination". Antiseptic words. Words stripped of their humanity. Politically correct words that are, oh so careful not to be offensive. Other ages faced the tragedy of abortion, but at least they recognized it as a tragedy. Ours alone - and think about this - ours alone has dared to call it a "social good". Ours alone has dared to call the victim a "thing", the act a "service", the perpetrator a "provider". Ours alone has made abortion not only a right, but a lucrative industry. And what decent society can live with that?

But you know something, the pendulum is swinging in the opposite direction, in the direction of protection of life. The Freedom of Choice Act, that grand design that was to pass through the Congress with no problem, has failed. More than eighty-three percent of the counties, twenty-one years later, more than eighty-three percent of the counties in the United States have no abortion clinics, because people don't want them there.

Fewer and fewer medical schools are teaching abortion. Most doctors themselves want nothing to do with it. At the U.S. military bases overseas every military doctor in Europe and Asia, to a person, refused to participate in abortions. The signs are unmistakable, and they are signs, I think, that point to a very hopeful future. As far as the future is concerned, what do we do? We put our best hope, as we always have in America when faced by challenges of this kind, in the basic goodness and the basic common sense of the American people. No fine gloss on the issue, no hedging, no slick finesse, can shake America's consensus of the heart. A consensus that grows every time someone looks in a sonogram.

You know, when you think about it, you can't stifle this debate with a piece of paper. No edict, no federal mandate will put to rest the grave doubts of the American people. Legal abortion will never rest easy on the conscience of America. It will continue to haunt the consciences of men and women everywhere. The plain facts of biology, the profound appeals of the heart, are far to unsettling ever to fade away.

When you think about it, you know, ours is still after all, the world's only country with a birth certificate. A document of legitimacy explaining exactly what our rights and duties are, and where our laws come from. We were endowed with these rights, says that Declaration, by our Creator.

We were not only created, says the Declaration, but created equal. So our rights, therefore, are by definition, in the words of the Declaration, unalienable. All the laws protecting these rights, therefore, are not to be tampered with by man. Alexander Hamilton had a word for this process, and it's a beautiful formulation. Listen just for a moment. he said, and I quote, "The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for among old parchments or musty records. They are written as with a sunbeam in the whole volume of human nature by the hand of Divinity itself and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power."

And he continues:

Prior to 1973 - just think about this for a minute - the laws of America reflected an overwhelming pro-life consensus that children before birth deserve the protection of the law. That consensus was a secular consensus. Those laws were not written by clerics, or in monasteries, or by the great organized religions of America. They were written by people who respected the truth. And that secular, pro-life consensus was both popular and national. And those two words are important. Popular because it came directly from the people, and national because it was not sectional or regional. It covered the entire country .. not unique to any one class or any region, but embodied in the laws of virtually every state in our nation. Not unique to our left or to the right, Democrats or Republicans, Liberals or conservatives, it represented the mainstream of America. My friends, it still is the mainstream of America, so don't be fooled.

The American people have not accepted abortion on demand. They've been hammering away for twenty-one years, but they're hammering a square peg into a round hole. It's like a bone in our throat. We can't swallow it. We cannot assimilate it. We cannot become comfortable with it, because it's fundamentally contrary to what we believe as Americans. It's in our history. Every poll shows a vast and growing unease with the abortion license and the industry that serves it. I believe a pro-life consensus already exists in America. And it grows every time someone looks in a sonogram.

But, you know, many of our fellow citizens do not know this. I urge you tonight to tell them. If you will do this, you will be, in the words of the mission statement of Notre Dame, dedicating yourselves to the pursuit and sharing of truth, for its own sake, with the aim of creating a sense of human solidarity and concern for the common good that will bear fruit as learning becomes service to justice.
 
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Hank77

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Were you around in '37 ? Look you're either not reading the post or you're just being goading.
Which one is it ?
I challenge you to find any anywhere in any thread where I goad, insult, call names, or accuse anyone of anything.
You are correct, that I read the date of the survey incorrectly. I thought you were support the idea being around in the 60's.
That's disingenuous. On this board Sanger is put into a light as if she was the sole matriarch of eugenics in this country.
Well, I didn't do that.
You're a "pro-lifer" am not shocked that you don't know what it is you're actually trying to accomplish.
(Yes, I have that little respect for them and the ham handed way they are going about "ending" abortion)
I know what I want but I don't claim to know what others are trying to achieve. You lump me together with your view of what ALL pro-life people want. Frankly, I know people who say they are pro-life and I would define them as pro-birth but not as pro-life.
I spent 45 minutes of research on the interwebs to put it together on my own. If you think it bogus do your own research and prove me wrong
Otherwise, accept it as correct.
Again you assume that I didn't believe you. The reason I wanted the link is to read more info. and to see who is behind some of those groups. Who are they politically connected to. It would be easily with all the names and more info. in one place.
But I would advise you to never just accept what you hear, always check things out for yourself. Remember the telephone game, things get mixed up even when no one intends to.

You appear to be overly defensive. I will not comment on your posts any longer, I don't want to cause you any distress. Peace.
 
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MikeK

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David, I want to thank you for what have been a string of thoughtful and honest posts. No honest person who's been paying attention believes that Planned Parenthood today desires to eliminate certain races from the population. No honest person who's been paying attention believes that anything Planned Prenthood does is for the purpose of reducing abortions either - the overtly encourage abortions and do so with almost ghoulish glee. In these conversations it always becomes depressingly apparent that the majority of pro-lifers and pro-choicers in these discussions are primarily interested in politicking and not in the right to life for all or the so-called right to abortion. Abortion is a convinient political wedge issue for both sides and shamefully few are really interested in a discussion on what it is to be human or how human beings have a right to be treated from conception to natural death.
 
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pdudgeon

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Well, I agree with some of the stuff Margaret said, do I get the same pass on it you do for Libertarianism ?
that would depend not on whether you agree with Margaret Sanger, but on whether you agree with what the Catholic Church teaches, as you know.
 
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benedictaoo

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I don't understand what was supposedly newsworthy about the story. It doesn't much matter to me how PP disposes of human waste. That they commit abortions is an outrage, but the rest? There's way more important things for the national news to focus on.
Yeah, I read this above, posted by you: "It doesn't much matter to me how PP disposes of human waste."

Reading that I see you call the babies waste and say you don't really care how they're disposed of. Maybe you and I have different definitions of dignity and contradiction. Because then you say...

"That the dead are to be treated with dignity is important, but not even on the same scale."

So, I mean, which is it?
I think its worth mentioning burying the dead is a Christian obligation. Its one of the corporal works of mercy, kinda like feeding the poor is... Just saying.
 
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MikeK

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I think its worth mentioning burying the dead is a Christian obligation. Its one of the corporal works of mercy, kinda like feeding the poor is... Just saying.

It sure is. We are, however, allowed to use bodies for science. Also, there is no requirement for early miscarried (and presumably aborted as well) babies to be burried, that would put an undue stressor on the parents. Many of these babies are no larger than a fist.
 
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benedictaoo

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You really do think this is the same as donating one's body to science? Or are you just playing devil's advocate? Or do you just like the drama of it all?

We can go as far as to call PP holy Saints even, huh? Because of all the "good" they do, the selfless acts, all in the name of good. No money is changing hands... none. They do it for the betterment of mankind. Can you read the sarcasm between the lines? I hope so.

Hey, Pope JPll said years back it's not okay to use aborted babies for this purpose. Period, done, end of conversation. You are doing some major backflips on this one, really working overtime to color between the lines. It's theology 101... Can't take evil and use it to do good. It don't work that way. And you know that Mike. What are you trying to accomplish by defending PP? I don't understand? What?
 
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MikeK

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You really do think this is the same as donating one's body to science? Or are you just playing devil's advocate? Or do you just like the drama of it all?

It is somewhat similar, not exactly the same. I don't think that we need to bury aborted (spontaniously or deliberately) in all cases though. If you feel otherwise then we disagree. That's okay.

We can go as far as to call PP holy Saints even, huh? Because of all the "good" they do, the selfless acts, all in the name of good. No money is changing hands... none. They do it for the betterment of mankind. Can you read the sarcasm between the lines? I hope so.

Money is changing hands, PP is evil and does much evil. They do some good, but what little good they do does not begin to offset or excuse the evils they do.

Hey, Pope JPll said years back it's not okay to use aborted babies for this purpose. Period, done, end of conversation. You are doing some major backflips on this one, really working overtime to color between the lines. It's theology 101... Can't take evil and use it to do good. It don't work that way. And you know that Mike. What are you trying to accomplish by defending PP? I don't understand? What?

I will defend anyone from lies and baseless accusations. Your statement on theology is errant - "we can't take evil and use it to do good." I think what you meant to say is that we can't do evil that good may come. We certainly can reap benefits of evils. Human torture, involuntary experimentation and unjust inprisonment are all evils, and we have come to have better pharmaceutical and medical understanding because of them. We do not have a duty to forget what we learned or refuse to use medications that came from evil. Good may come from evil, but we cannot do evil so that good may come. Rape is evil, but out of a rape a Saint may be born. It is good that a Saint was born. We adore the Saint and we are thankful for the Saint. The rape remains evil and we regret the rape, even though good came from it.

I have not at any time said that PP should sell aborted babies or parts of them. They should not do so. The fact that they are aborted in the first place is of far greater concern to me though. I have restated this position probably two dozen times in the last two weeks.
 
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benedictaoo

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And key word here is donate. The remains are not being denoted but sold as a commodity. Human remains are not a commodity.That fact alone should upset you. This is the reason why you can not, not care what happens to the remains. The remains are sacred. This, way back when has always been part of what makes it a evil act, the fact that they are being treated like trash. Now they are being treated as a hot commodity. No matter how hard you try, you can't make this one work. I'm just confused as why you even want it to work. I know what is your position, I just find it odd because what purpose are you serving? No lies are being told except the lies they tell.
 
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MikeK

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And key word here is donate. The remains are not being denoted but sold as a commodity. Human remains are not a commodity.That fact alone should upset you. This is the reason why you can not, not care what happens to the remains. The remains are sacred. This, way back when has always been part of what makes it a evil act, the fact that they are being treated like trash. Now they are being treated as a hot commodity. No matter how hard you try, you can't make this one work. I'm just confused as why you even want it to work. I know what is your position, I just find it odd because what purpose are you serving? No lies are being told except the lies they tell.

Lots of lies are being told. One lie told on here was that almost all PP offices provide abortions. Most do not. Another was that PP does not provide Paps. They absolutely do, though of course not at all offices. What remains to be seen is whether they are profiting off the organs they sell. They might be, or the operations might be a wash, with them covering storage and transportation expenses with the money they recieve. I wish they didn't sell body parts and I wish they didn't provide abortions, but they do. We should not fund them.
 
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MikeK

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So what? Why do you care? For the sake of argument, let's say those are lies told on pp, it's only said to save babies. So good is being done here. I'm going to defend that little bit of evil because of all the good that they do.

I care because I want to live for Christ, who gives love and truth, and I want to embrace love and truth. We should never defend any evil. We can beat PP by being decent human beings, we don't need to embrace evil to do so. When we lie, not only do we sin, but we rob our pro-life movement of credibility and hurt the very cause we want to serve.
 
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