PP ties

[benedictaoo]

I care because I want to live for Christ, who gives love and truth, and I want to embrace love and truth. We should never defend any evil. We can beat PP by being decent human beings, we don't need to embrace evil to do so. When we lie, not only do we sin, but we rob our pro-life movement of credibility and hurt the very cause we want to serve.

LOL... so why do you then? You are defending an organization that is evil from the word go...

 

[MikeK]

LOL... so why do you then? You are defending an organization that is evil from the word go...

I will not defend the evil that PP does. I will defend anyone against evil - abortion, murder, torture, lies, whatever. I would defend a pedofile who's life was threatened - that isn't a defence of pedofilia.

 

[benedictaoo]

Look Mike, those are not lies. PP is killing babies, selling the remains, and/or throwing them in a trash bin. That is evil. And if they provide free anything its blood money they do it with. I will not accpt free anything from them. It's not good. Y'all need to stop promoting their business practices.

 

[benedictaoo]

and it doesn't hurt Pro life movement credibility. That's just what you think and claim, it's merely your opinion. Jesus said you are either for or against. You are Johnny on the spot to criticize pro life while you defend the pseudo good pp in your opinion does. I just find that odd.

 

[MikeK]

Look Mike, those are not lies.

What I mentioned? Yeah, those are lies.

PP is killing babies, selling the remains, and/or throwing them in a trash bin. That is evil.

Right!

And if they provide free anything its blood money they do it with. I will not accpt free anything from them. It's not good. Y'all need to stop promoting their business practices.

I have not "promoted" their business practices. It is good that you have nothing to do with them. I do not begrudge the woman who does recieve legitimate care from them though (although I wish she'd go elsewhere). I'd like very much to shut down PP and fund low cost or free clinics that do not provide abortions instead.

 

[MikeK]

and it doesn't hurt Pro life movement credibility.

Oh but it does. I have seen the harm done to our movement by people who draw attention to the evils in our movement - evils that too often go unopposed.

Jesus said you are either for or against. You are Johnny on the spot to criticize pro life while you defend the pseudo good pp in your opinion does. I just find that odd.

I don't defend what PP does, I defend truth. I will hold good people to high standards and will not excuse evils done by anyone, regardless of their intent. I believe that we should hold ourselves to the highest standards, then our peers, and lastly putme adversaries. I expect lies from PP. I expect better from people who claim Christ. This conversation is circular, so I now bow out. Misrepresent my position as you see fit.

 

[benedictaoo]

And if you think PP will ever stop abortions and go low cost health care, your fooling yourself. This is getting silly. You're just splitting hairs. One more time, the "good" is funded, bought and paid for with the blood of the innocent. In no way can that be defended. and it doesn't have to be. Guess what? The Catholic Church has clinics that are low cost and no cost, for men and women and they give away pap smears that are not funded by dead babies either. So get behind them and not PP. Goggle Daughter's of Charity. You no longer have to defend them because of the little good they do.

 

[benedictaoo]

Oh but it does. I have seen the harm done to our movement by people who draw attention to the evils in our movement - evils that too often go unopposed.

Evils in our movement? whoa...
that's a huge accusation there. The harm that's being done is in your opinion.

I don't defend what PP does, I defend truth. I will hold good people to high standards and will not excuse evils done by anyone, regardless of their intent. I believe that we should hold ourselves to the highest standards, then our peers, and lastly putme adversaries. I expect lies from PP. I expect better from people who claim Christ. This conversation is circular, so I now bow out. Misrepresent my position as you see fit.

I'm not misrepresenting anything. It's clear Mike by your own words. I'm following your logic through to what it concludes. and who died and made you judge of high standards anyway? and holding ppl to it? Hey, I'm just doing the same with you... holding you to the standard you set for yourself.

 

[MikeK]

The Bible explicitly tells us how to behave when other Christians are doing wrong. It is wrong to lie, it is wrng to slander. It doesn't become okay if we are lying about or slandering an evil group.

I never suggested that PP would stop doing abortions, I don't believe they will. They should be defunded and we should work to make abortions harder to get and to take away the reasons women seek abortions. That harm that has been done by those in our movement is easily observed and is not a matter of opinion. Look at the arguments against the pro-life movement and you will see that people who attack abortionists and clinics come up, throwing fake blood on or chanting to intimidate women comes up, the fact that many so-called pro-lifers are against measures that will help mothers to raise their children comes up, and the lies that we too often tell come up. We are our own worst enemies. Christ's love for us and His methods are pure - so too should our conduct be when we are doing work for Him.

 

[benedictaoo]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, Mike, but it seems to me that you are trying to contrast and compare the deeds of pro life with the deeds of pro death pp. We already established the good is bought with blood money, paid for with the lives of the innocent, thus it's not good but evil.

I just am not quite understanding why you are having trouble understanding this important fact. The free mamogram is paid for with the blood of the innocent. So, don't say they do good when that good is dependant on the death of the unborn. Who, pray tell, does pro life murder to do their work? Surly your not comparing and putting what pro life does on parr with what pro death does... Which is murder and then selling the remains.

 

[MikeK]

I am not comparing the evils of one camp to the evils of another camp, I am calling on all people to stop taking part in evils. Most pro-choicers do not take part in evils that rival abortion, to my knowledge. Some pro-life people inadvertently promote the pro-choice position by being bad advertisements for our movement though. We can help or we can hurt. When we demonstrate our love, honesty and charity and hold one another to high standards, we help. When we bomb clinics or spread lies or shame women or make excuses like "yeah, but at least we aren't as bad as /them/", we hurt our cause. When pro-choicers do or support evil, they must be called on it. When pro-lifers do or support evil, they must be called on it.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I am not comparing the evils of one camp to the evils of another camp, I am calling on all people to stop taking part in evils. Most pro-choicers do not take part in evils that rival abortion, to my knowledge. Some pro-life people inadvertently promote the pro-choice position by being bad advertisements for our movement though. We can help or we can hurt. When we demonstrate our love, honesty and charity and hold one another to high standards, we help. When we bomb clinics or spread lies or shame women or make excuses like "yeah, but at least we aren't as bad as /them/", we hurt our cause. When pro-choices do or support evil, they must be called on it. When pro-lifers do or support evil, they must be called on it.

We aren't saying that we are without sin. However, the Catholic Church teaches that some sins are worse than others, and there is nothing that is more evil than abortion. Therefore, we should not be supporting it in any way, shape or form. Benedictaoo made a good point that the supposed "good" that you say that Planned Parenthood does is done with money from murdered babies. It's like how the Mafia can claim to do "good" in the community, but they do it with blood money.

 

[MikeK]

We aren't saying that we are without sin. However, the Catholic Church teaches that some sins are worse than others, and there is nothing that is more evil than abortion. Therefore, we should not be supporting it in any way, shape or form. Benedictaoo made a good point that the supposed "good" that you say that Planned Parenthood does is done with money from murdered babies. It's like how the Mafia can claim to do "good" in the community, but they do it with blood money.

Nothing I've said is contrary to anything the Church teaches. The sins of the Pro Chouce movement do nothing to justify or diminish our own sins and we should never fall into the trap of finding comfort in the fact that someone else's sin seems "worse". We have the truth, and much will be expected of those who have been given much. The good that PP does is objectively good. It might be funded wrong and there is certainly mug evil that they do, but that doesn't make the good they do less good. Stealing to feed the poor is not good or bad. Feeding the poor is good and stealing is bad, they are different actions.

 

[benedictaoo]

I am not comparing the evils of one camp to the evils of another camp, I am calling on all people to stop taking part in evils. Most pro-choicers do not take part in evils that rival abortion, to my knowledge. Some pro-life people inadvertently promote the pro-choice position by being bad advertisements for our movement though. We can help or we can hurt. When we demonstrate our love, honesty and charity and hold one another to high standards, we help. When we bomb clinics or spread lies or shame women or make excuses like "yeah, but at least we aren't as bad as /them/", we hurt our cause. When pro-choices do or support evil, they must be called on it. When pro-lifers do or support evil, they must be called on it.

Consider this as being held to a higher standard...you are now claiming pro life inadvertently suporrts pro death? Are you really going there? Do you really want to make this claim? That the real culprit is pro life? So you want pro life to go away so abortion can end? Do I have this straight?

Wow. That's a lot there. Umm, so in your mind, pro life is the problem? I'm asking? Not accusing.

 

[benedictaoo]

We aren't saying that we are without sin. However, the Catholic Church teaches that some sins are worse than others, and there is nothing that is more evil than abortion. Therefore, we should not be supporting it in any way, shape or form. Benedictaoo made a good point that the supposed "good" that you say that Planned Parenthood does is done with money from murdered babies. It's like how the Mafia can claim to do "good" in the community, but they do it with blood money.

Walter White and Breaking Bad.

 

[benedictaoo]

Nothing I've said is contrary to anything the Church teaches. The sins of the Pro Chouce movement do nothing to justify or diminish our own sins and we should never fall into the trap of finding comfort in the fact that someone else's sin seems "worse". We have the truth, and much will be expected of those who have been given much. The good that PP does is objectively good. It might be funded wrong and there is certainly mug evil that they do, but that doesn't make the good they do less good. Stealing to feed the poor is not good or bad. Feeding the poor is good and stealing is bad, they are different actions.

Ah, no... This is not about mine or yours or anyone else's personal sins. How in the heck did that get turned around? This is about pp using blood money to do what you think is good and now you are claiming that good is objective? The whole point to this discussion is how subjective this good is. And why you feel the need to defend them? And don't say you don't because in this thread and many others that is exactly what you've been doing. My only question is why? Why do you feel the need? Because you love truth? Well saying that mammograms paid for with blood money is good is just not true.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

I will not defend the evil that PP does. I will defend anyone against evil - abortion, murder, torture, lies, whatever. I would defend a pedofile who's life was threatened - that isn't a defence of pedofilia.

Interesting spelling of defense, for an American.

 

[pdudgeon]

Nothing I've said is contrary to anything the Church teaches. The sins of the Pro Chouce movement do nothing to justify or diminish our own sins and we should never fall into the trap of finding comfort in the fact that someone else's sin seems "worse". We have the truth, and much will be expected of those who have been given much. The good that PP does is objectively good. It might be funded wrong and there is certainly mug evil that they do, but that doesn't make the good they do less good. Stealing to feed the poor is not good or bad. Feeding the poor is good and stealing is bad, they are different actions.

in your argument for PP you have forgotten one basic truth: good fruit comes from good trees. Just like good actions produce good fruit, so do bad actions produce bad fruit.
so in your example stealing is a bad action and always has been.
the fruit of that action will not be feeding the poor, the fruit is a jail sentence and a criminal record.
if someone wants to feed the poor they buy the food, and then they donate it to the poor.

so if PP is giving services that are funded wrong, that would be like a grocery store selling rancid meat alongside fresh produce all the while claiming to be a great grocery store,
and then screaming that they were innocent when the federal inspectors close them down.

It's not because of the good they do that they need to be closed down. It's because they are breaking laws and murdering innocent children that they need to be stopped.
the only question is how many more murders have to take place before something is done to put a stop to it?

PP has ALWAYS been contrary to the teachings of the church.

 

[MikeK]

Consider this as being held to a higher standard...you are now claiming pro life inadvertently suporrts pro death?

Ocasionally.

Are you really going there? Do you really want to make this claim? That the real culprit is pro life? So you want pro life to go away so abortion can end? Do I have this straight?

No, you don't have it straight. I want the pro-life movement to be better. More honest. More charitable. More effective. Less emotional and more rational.

Wow. That's a lot there. Umm, so in your mind, pro life is the problem? I'm asking? Not accusing.

Abortion is the problem. Every person who finds or supports or encourages abortion is the problem. People who make the pro-life movement look dishonest, or primarily partisan, or violent, or overly-emotional contribute to the problem. Most pro-life people have good intentions and I suspect that most are sincere and honest and really give of themselves in terms of time, tallent and treasure to serve the cause. A minority in the movement behave poorly and their examples are used by the evil one to make our movement appear evil.

 

[pdudgeon]

abortion IS the problem. it is also the subject of this thread.
Let us run this race looking straight ahead to the goal, and not be distracted by spurious arguments
whose sole intent is to take our eyes off that goal.