POWER OF OUR TONGUE!!

[Old_100th]

Proverbs 18:21 ~ Death and life are in the power of the TONGUE: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof. In other words, if you speak death over yourself, you will get it. If you speak the words of Life, Gods Words over yourself, you shall have it.
James 3:6 ~ And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

I have no idea how these verses support the view that our words have any spiritual power. The correct interpretation is much more mundane.

 

[LilAngelHeart]

QUOTE=Old_100th--Yes, God did create the world by spoken word. But we're not God. I don't recall Christians being given a spiritual gift that allows them to create something out of nothing, ex nihilo. To assume that we have this ability is fallacious and ilfounded. Dare I say that this teaching is very dangerous.

It is not our power behind the words we speak, it is God's power behind the words we speak when we speak them in faith. Just like when we lay hands and pray for someone, God's healing power is imparted or released through us by our prayer, but the power or ability is God's not ours. No one is saying that we use our power it is God's power. God through His speaking of words created the world, and He tells us that through Him we can speak things into existence, using our voice but it's through His power.



All that has been done here is to shift terminology. Let me do some logic for you"

1) God responds to our faith.
2) Sue prays for "financial freedom" using her measure of faith.
3) God grants her request, based upon her faith.
4) Therefore, Sue, by way of her faith, has deterministically caused God's action.

Using this model, I have proven that through faith, God's actions are deterministically (and yes, that is a word) caused by our faith. Cause, influnce, determine, control, it's all semantics. We determine the outcome, not God. This model is flawed in many ways that I won't get into.

In this instance and reference, "control" is not the word to be used. We do not control God, our faith determines how God will move, but we don't control God. For instance, someone may have the right amount of faith and speak the right words and believe with all their heart, but if it's not God's will for them to have it their faith does not control God and make Him give it to them, God will still do what His will is in the situation. So you can't just say that our faith controls God, because no matter how much faith we have, God can and may still say no because it's not His will or He may have something different for us. Faith is not like an automatic gum ball machine where you put in a qauter and a blessing pops out. LOL! God is still the ultimate one in control. Sometimes God may through grace and compassion grant something to someone even if they are lacking in faith or the right amount of faith, especially if they are a newborn Christian. God is the one in control.




However, let me show you the Skerrittian/Edwardsian model. I think it solves the problem.

1) God gives Sue faith. He is in full control of our faith, it's measure, what we have faith in, and what Sue's faith is effectual for.
2) Sue, asks God to give her wisdom to choose what Church she should attend, using the faith that God has already given her, and already decreed shall be effectual unto the end that she shall attend Grace Orthodox Presbyterian Church.
3) Sue sees the wisdom of attending Grace OPC, she goes there and is blessed for having done so.
4) God is glorified in Sue's utter dependance upon Him.

In this model God is in control. He determined the outcome before it happened. He got what he wanted, Sue went to the church he wanted her to go to. Sue choose freely to go. God is in control.[/QUOTE]


God gives each of us the same measure of faith, but it's up to the person to build that faith up and make it stronger. Those with the biggest faith muscles will get the most blessings. God doesn't control how we build our faith up, that's something He tells us to do.

 

[LilAngelHeart]

If someone had all the faith in the world and believed for something like say a Mink coat, and they had the right faith spoke the right confessions and everything, but say if God knew there was something in Mink coats that was toxic to that person and the person would never know until they got the coat and it would be too late, no matter how much faith the person has, God's answer will be no. Their faith doesn't control God. How much faith you have determines the outcome in situations where it's God's will, but if it's not God's will, all the faith in the world will not make Him say yes, even if He just got done blessing someone else with a Mink coat who doesn't have the deadly allergy. You can't just say our faith controls God.

 

[Andrew]

Using this model, I have proven that through faith, God's actions are deterministically (and yes, that is a word) caused by our faith. Cause, influnce, determine, control, it's all semantics. We determine the outcome, not God. This model is flawed in many ways that I won't get into.

But it just so happens that this model is supported by Mark 11:

22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

WHOSOEVER, WHATSOEVER! According to your faith be it unto you. You seek to limit it with theology, models, reasoning etc. We just take it by faith, and walk in the Spirit. If God says, whosoever and whatsoever, we just believe Him. The problem does not lie with Him but us -- how much we can believe these words of His or take these words of His seriously.

No one is trying to control God here or 'move' God. God has already moved, the ball is in our court, it is up to us to exercise our faith.

eg Healing. As far as God is concerend, He sees us healed becos we are in Christ, and Christ is not sick. It is then up to us to agree with God's vision and His Word (thru the way we talk and act) or to agree with the worldly natural reports. We are in this world but not of this world.

Consequently, God does not control our lives. If He was that sort of God, he wld just zap everyone into being saved.

 

[AnonymousRex]

Folks,

After careful consideration I've come to ally myself with Old_100th in this argument. His argumentation is cogent and exudes thorough exegetical research. As far as responses go, I've seen nothing but the same phallusies repeated or the same wooden literalism that seems to go out of its way to deny its obvious interpretive motif. I just don't think it's feasible to say that we have any sovereign, divine power in the spoken word. We can't create something using some mystical "force of faith" as if we were little gods.

I once sympathized with charismatic beliefs and to a certain extent I still admire the zeal. It shouldn't be about "us" or our ability to "will ourselves" to some higher spiritual plane, etc., etc. It should be about God, who works through us to do His good will and pleasure. Amen.

Lovingly,
AnonRex

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I find it interesting that those who side with Jesus all have wonderful testimonies about having what they say... but those who do not seem to be lacking in such manifestations. Is this just another case of "be it unto you according to your faith"?
How should those of us who side with Jesus address this with those who deny it? Why does it seem to work for all those who accept it and promote it?

Mark 11:23-24 NASB
23 "Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him.
24 "Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.

I have to ask those who doubt these things. What exactly do you think is happening when those of us who believe in what Jesus said actually receive the things that we say?

 

[FoundInGrace]

However, let me show you the Skerrittian/Edwardsian model. I think it solves the problem.

1) God gives Sue faith. He is in full control of our faith, it's measure, what we have faith in, and what Sue's faith is effectual for.
2) Sue, asks God to give her wisdom to choose what Church she should attend, using the faith that God has already given her, and already decreed shall be effectual unto the end that she shall attend Grace Orthodox Presbyterian Church.
3) Sue sees the wisdom of attending Grace OPC, she goes there and is blessed for having done so.
4) God is glorified in Sue's utter dependance upon Him.

In this model God is in control. He determined the outcome before it happened. He got what he wanted, Sue went to the church he wanted her to go to. Sue choose freely to go. God is in control.

I seriously really like this model!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love that the idea that the amount of faith we have comes directly from God because He knows our lives inside out and how much faith we'll need in any situation, how loving is that!
It fits with verses like Romans 12:3 "..rather think of yourself with sober judgement, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you."
and Rom 12:6 "..we have different gifts... if a mans gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith."

God gives us the faith we need to function as He would like us to, He knows what we need before we do. That fits.


I do wonder about the idea that God's will is hindered by us at all, even if we disobey in some way, God knew we would, He's the alpha and omega, nothing takes Him by surprise. As Proverbs says, "Many are the plans of a man's heart but it is the Lord's will that prevails".

He works in spite of our flawed attempts at holiness, and some of them are pretty bad attempts!! LOL

I reckon God can accomplish what He wants with one hand tied behind His back, what I do has nothing to do with it. Of course I want to help in what He's doing, don't get me wrong, its good to obey. Like Paul said just because we have all this freedom does that give us the right to sin? No way!! - (my paraphrase)

He's such a huge God

 

[Andrew]

I reckon God can accomplish what He wants with one hand tied behind His back,

Well if that is true, why didnt he just get everyone saved 2000 years ago? God is not willing that any should perish. That is His will clearly stated in the Word. Now, if God can simply do what he wants, why have so many people rejected the Messiah and perish and why do so many more continue to do so? Why is there a hell for that matter?

This idea that God can simply do whatever he wants is just not true.

...what I do has nothing to do with it.

so we can all just sit back, watch football, and somehow the Gospel will still be preahced by itself, and souls saved and the sick healed?

 

[Old_100th]

Foundingrace,

The model I've proposed actually is a modified one from Jonathan Edwards' sermon "God glorified in Man's Dependance." You can find it at www.jonathanedwards.com. I hope you're blessed by it.

Andrew,

I have no idea how the scripture you listed above has anything to do with what I've said. "Whosoever" indeed. Who is the whosoever? Obviously those who have faith, which is the gift of God.

 

[Follower of Christ too]

Power of the tongue! It is awesome when you use God's word and demons leave. God has given us authority over evil. When my children were babies I began teaching them there is power in the word. Years ago my son only 4 at the time was picked up by this guy who drove him to the other side of town and was attempting to rape him. My 4 year old said " Jesus wouldn't like for you to do this." The guy stopped what he was doing and returned my son home! So, I ask you had he not been taught about the word what could have happened to him?

 

[Old_100th]

Anon Rex,

Are you a Calvinist? You know what you're talking about so I thought that'd be a safe assumption.

For Christ & Calvinism,

TJS

 

[Old_100th]

Follower,

There are perfectly reasonable answers to your question that don't require belief in supernatural utterance. Namely that the rapist was convicted by your son's words; which too is the work of God. In any event it wasn't your son it was the Holy Spirit.

Simply because someone says something "In the name of Jesus" doesn't mean that something will happen every time. It must be in accordance to God's own will.

Moreover, while it is unfortunate that such a horrible thing happened, I suggest that we not use personal stories. Too much emotion is involved when challenging personal experience and THAT is very counter productive.

 

[AnonymousRex]

Andrew

Well if that is true, why didnt he just get everyone saved 2000 years ago? God is not willing that any should perish. That is His will clearly stated in the Word. Now, if God can simply do what he wants, why have so many people rejected the Messiah and perish and why do so many more continue to do so? Why is there a hell for that matter?

In actuality, the Bible does say that God is in the sovereign position to do whatever he wants. In Psalm 115:3, it says, "But our God is in the heavens: He hath done whatsoever he hath pleased."

Does this verse imply anything remotely contrary to what it seems to clearly say? If it does I'm certainly not aware of it, although I will add a qualifier: since God is good, His actions will always be just. Even though the precise phrase "God is not the author of evil" is nowhere to be found in Scripture, the concept certainly is, that is, God is not a direct causal agent of sin. So yes, God does whatever he wants, but what he inevitably does is in syncopation with his just character.

So we can all just sit back, watch football, and somehow the Gospel will still be preahced by itself, and souls saved and the sick healed?

What you have just stated represents a popular misconception of the irreducible sovereignty of God and His providence. In his commentary on the Westminster Confession, G.I. Williamson makes the following point:

"This objection is false because it contains a real contradiction. On the one hand, there is the supposition that God controls everything. But then, on the other hand, there is the foreign and contradictory supposition that certain personal actions may happen in a random and uncertain way. It says, in effect, that if all things are fixed by divine decree, then it makes no difference whether events 'a', 'b', and 'c' happen: we will still arrive at event 'd'. But the obvious fact is that 'a', 'b' and 'c' are events just as 'd' is, and the starting supposition is that God controls them all. Therefore, if God controls all things, it is obvious that they will work out only if each event leading to it also works out according to plan. Divine foreordination does not make our actions unimportant, but rather makes them exceedingly important. Thus Peter says, 'Brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall..." If God has elected us, then far be it from us to say that we will be saved no matter what we do. We must know that we can be saved only as we do that which God says the elect will do, namely, 'give diligence', etc." (p. 49 - The Westminster Confession of Faith for Study Classes)

(I am posting this because I believe he elucidates this better than I)

I would add, given the topic of evangelism, that preaching the gospel to the multitudes is the ORDAINED MEANS by which God calls out His people. I guess you could say that my position on human volition is that of a "soft compatiblist." More often than not, we do that which is in accordance with our personalities, but there are "isolated incidences" where our actions are not in agreement with who we are (because of our imperfection).

Hopefully this will help you understand where Old_100th and myself are coming from.

AnonRex

 

[Old_100th]

Anon,

Amen.

 

[AnonymousRex]

Anon Rex,

Are you a Calvinist? You know what you're talking about so I thought that'd be a safe assumption.

Yes, I believe the gospel, if I may be so bold. I take it that you are Calvinistic yourself. Well, you get no quarrel from me.

AnonRex

 

[Old_100th]

Anon,

I too, believe the gospel. I guess you could even call me "Full Gospel."

Old_100th

 

[Follower of Christ too]

Follower,

There are perfectly reasonable answers to your question that don't require belief in supernatural utterance. Namely that the rapist was convicted by your son's words; which too is the work of God. In any event it wasn't your son it was the Holy Spirit.

Simply because someone says something "In the name of Jesus" doesn't mean that something will happen every time. It must be in accordance to God's own will.

Moreover, while it is unfortunate that such a horrible thing happened, I suggest that we not use personal stories. Too much emotion is involved when challenging personal experience and THAT is very counter productive.

The personal experience is a testimony to the glory of God. I was trying to point out that God gives us authority. I agree it is not us that do spiritual things but it is the indwelling spirit of God that lives within us. Nothing we speak can happen if it's out of the will of God. Why would God fill us with the Spirit if it is of no effect? When I am in this thread I share more of the personal experiences because of all the believers here. I often read testimonies of others and it has increased my faith.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

*MOD HAT ON *


TEMPORARILY CLOSED.

FOR THOSE WHO ARE NON-CHARASMATIC. . .YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DEBATE HERE. IF YOU CONTINUE TO DO SO. . .YOU WILL BE REMOVED FROM THE FORUM ALLTOGETHER. THE BASHING OF THE CHARASMATIC BELIEVER AND THEIR FAITH WILL NOT BE TOLEARTED IN THIS FORUM.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

*MOD HAT*

NOW THAT I'VE GOTTEN EVERYONE'S ATTENTION. . .THIS THREAD MAY CONTINUE ON

 

[SavedByGrace3]

*MOD HAT*

NOW THAT I'VE GOTTEN EVERYONE'S ATTENTION. . .THIS THREAD MAY CONTINUE ON

Thank you hatted (not "hated") one.