Post-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

Aijalon

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Zeke,

Well, I do consider myself a post tribber, or perhaps just an ibber, wine-bibber that is! No, seriously, I'm just discussing this here, not debating it. I don't see why it is completely outside the post trib concept because I also see no way around the full harvest being at the last trumpet.

Don't you see some significance in the idea of the first fruits and its relationship to the harvest? If there isn't one, then the whole 144,000 thing is just a fancy picture of what? Some guys singing songs??

Since I'm saying these guys were martyred, then they are not being raptures as the living were raptured, so I guess I should call this a pre-resurrection. Happy now?

Even if not all chapters of Revelation is linear, each of the parts of the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls, are linear, both individually, and with respect to each other. The Trumpets are all after and part-of, Seal 7. The bowls are all after and part-of, Trumpet 7. So that makes the multitude pre-trib group, not the all-saints group.
 
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zeke37

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Zeke,

Well, I do consider myself a post tribber, or perhaps just an ibber, wine-bibber that is! No, seriously, I'm just discussing this here, not debating it. I don't see why it is completely outside the post trib concept because I also see no way around the full harvest being at the last trumpet.
well, to each their own but i'm post trib.
and this is the post trib safe house.
not that it is used all that much...

i mean, you can phrase a question here,
but you are not support pre trib in any way, shape or form.
any pre trib rapture (partial or otherwise) is outside the post trib camp.
post tribbers believe the "harvest" is post trib.

as for Rev14, im still working it out too ;)
well, the book of Rev is difficult, but there are many OT symbols -references to go by.
Im still working on all of it ;)

Don't you see some significance in the idea of the first fruits and its relationship to the harvest?
absolutely.
the relationship is that they are spiritual virgins for Christ ....
patient...waiting...working till the end.
the rest are apostate, harlots, spiritually speaking.
they will apparently fall for Satan's end time desception,
while the only the 144000 will not.

If there isn't one, then the whole 144,000 thing is just a fancy picture of what? Some guys singing songs??
i note the relationship between the song singers in Rev14 and Rev19.
IMO, in Rev14 Christ is here on earth, and has gathered the elect,
who were alive and remained until He came (as per 1Thes4).
They are gathered to Him on earth. So are the dead in Christ.

they are gathered first, but not any time before the post trib coming of Christ.

the "voice as many waters" heard coming from heaven,
heard by Christ and the gathered elect 144000 in Rev14
while they are on earth
is IMO coming from the righteous dead in heaven...
OT Saints before Christ.....just my opinion.

as for the voice detailed as "heard" in heaven in Rev19
i say the Rev19:6-8 voice is the elect, on earth (Rev14), who have made themselves ready to be gathered.
so, the voice is coming from earth, and heard in heaven

so, then after that voice is heard in Rev19
Christ leaves heaven to go meet them (who have made themselves ready)on earth (Rev14)
FOR THE HARVEST of Rev14.

I don't see why you think the 144000 are killed,
because in Rev6 and Rev12 it is outright said that they are dead....
why beat around the bush with the 144000?
plus they are sealed before the 4 winds blow the trib.
and they are harvested at the end.

IMO at Christ's return, He harvests the first fruits first,
but only mere moments/a blink, before the main harvest.
but on the same day.
that main harvest has two parts to it.

Since I'm saying these guys were martyred, then they are not being raptures as the living were raptured, so I guess I should call this a pre-resurrection. Happy now?
I don't understand why you think they are martyred.
I am sure that they are not.

The resurrection occurs after the rapture.
see 1Thes4 and 1Cor15.
Even if not all chapters of Revelation is linear, each of the parts of the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls, are linear, both individually, and with respect to each other. The Trumpets are all after and part-of, Seal 7. The bowls are all after and part-of, Trumpet 7. So that makes the multitude pre-trib group, not the all-saints group.
i disagree with how you worded above.
The Seals are information only, just as a seal in the bible
locks special information contained on scrolls.
the seals are opened and the scrolls are unrolled to be read in Rev6
and contain information, not actions
that only those with the seal of God in their forhead can understand.

The Seals follow the exact same pattern as the Olivette Prophesy,
all in the same order as they are given in Mat24 and Mar13.

The Trumps seem to be the time before the Coming of Christ,
the 7th is His Coming.

Rev12 and 13 are inserts, parenthetical chapters,
detailing the time leading up to His Coming.

Chapter 14 is the Harvest.

15-16 are the vials of wrath which is unclear exactly WHEN they begin,
but IMO |culminate| on the |day| of His Coming, which is hwat they vials show.
it seems the 7th is likewise the Coming of Christ.

17-18 are out of the loop timewise again, obviously.
19 shows Christ about to come and Coming.
20 seems to be from then until after the 1000 years when Judgement happens
and a possible second harvest???
what do you think?
21-22...after that.
 
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Aijalon

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<staff edit>



zeke said:
the "voice as many waters" heard coming from heaven,
heard by Christ and the gathered elect 144000 in Rev14
while they are on earth
is IMO coming from the righteous dead in heaven...
OT Saints before Christ.....just my opinion.

as for the voice detailed as "heard" in heaven in Rev19
i say the Rev19:6-8 voice is the elect, on earth (Rev14), who have made themselves ready to be gathered.
so, the voice is coming from earth, and heard in heaven
I had not thought of it that way but very interesting!

I don't see why you think the 144000 are killed,
Well I thought I explained that. Because Seal 5 obviously links with martyrs, and the multitude does as well. So the Sealed 144K seem to fit in with the timing. I will admit, this is a "best guess". But I think it does not make sense that the 144,000 selected Israelites would be only chosen out of one generation. Don't you think they would be chosen from the full spectrum of saints throughout all time?

The resurrection occurs after the rapture.
see 1Thes4 and 1Cor15.
Hmm, I think you meant that the resurrection (the first one) accurs simultaneously with the rapture, with the dead ascending immediately before the living are raptured. That much seems obvious from Thessalonians.
 
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zeke37

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Well I thought I explained that. Because Seal 5 obviously links with martyrs,

ok
and the multitude does as well.

how do they link?
i think that multitude are the righteous dead

iow, the 144,000 are sealed on earth, are the firstfruits on earth
(those that are alive and remain of 1Thes4)

and the multitude is seen in heaven, the firstfruits in heaven
that have died in the flesh,

So the Sealed 144K seem to fit in with the timing. I will admit, this is a "best guess". But I think it does not make sense that the 144,000 selected Israelites would be only chosen out of one generation. Don't you think they would be chosen from the full spectrum of saints throughout all time?

i think the 144,000 is a symbolic number to begin with...
but i think they are specific to the end times,
because they were sealed before the 4 winds blow the trib, in Rev7.

Hmm, I think you meant that the resurrection (the first one) accurs simultaneously with the rapture, with the dead ascending immediately before the living are raptured. That much seems obvious from Thessalonians.
lol, i don't know what happened...
i meant to write that the other way around.
the rapture happens after the resurrection.
right after...
 
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Aijalon

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Well, I agree that the multitude are certainly dead.... the sealed.... who knows.

As to the symbolic nature of the number, there does not seem to be anything symbolic about it. why 12,000 specifically from each tribe? What is that symbolizing?

Numbers should not be taken symbolically unless there is basis (instruction) for doing so. The 200 million demons in the trumpets for instance, are BOTH seen and the number HEARD by John, it is therefore not symbolic of anything, it is real number.
 
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zeke37

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Well, I agree that the multitude are certainly dead.... the sealed.... who knows.

As to the symbolic nature of the number, there does not seem to be anything symbolic about it. why 12,000 specifically from each tribe? What is that symbolizing?

Numbers should not be taken symbolically unless there is basis (instruction) for doing so. The 200 million demons in the trumpets for instance, are BOTH seen and the number HEARD by John, it is therefore not symbolic of anything, it is real number.
well i think it is symbolic, for what the number 12 spiritually means
and 1000 is for great emphesis

Number in Scripture | Dr. E.W. Bullinger


Back | Contents | Next
PART II
ITS SPIRITUAL SIGNIFICANCE


TWELVE


is a perfect number, signifying perfection of government, or of governmental perfection. It is found as a multiple in all that has to do with rule. The sun which "rules" the day, and the moon and stars which "govern" the night, do so by their passage through the twelve signs of the Zodiac which completes the great circle of the heavens of 360 (12 x 30) degrees or divisions, and thus govern the year.
Twelve is the product of 3 (the perfectly Divine and heavenly number) and 4 (the earthly, the number of what is material and organic).
While seven is composed of 3 added to 4, twelve is 3 multiplied by 4, and hence denotes that which can scarcely be explained in words, but which the spiritual perception can at once appreciate, viz., organization, the products denoting production and multiplication and increase of all that is contained in the two numbers separately. The 4 is generally prominently seen in the twelve.



THERE WERE TWELVE PATRIARCHS


from Seth to Noah and his family, and twelve from Shem to Jacob.



THE TWELVE SONS OF ISRAEL


though actually thirteen in number, there are never more than twelve names in any one list. There are about 18 enumerations altogether, but in each list one or other is omitted. Generally it is Levi, but not always. In Revelation 7 both Dan and Ephraim are omitted (see p. 211), but the enumeration is still twelve, Levi and Joseph being introduced for this special sealing of the remnant which shall go unscathed through the great tribulation.
Then there were twelve Judges or Saviours (see p. 214).



THE TEMPLE OF SOLOMON


has the number twelve as the predominating factor, in contrast with the Tabernacle, which had the number five. This agrees with the grace which shines in the Tabernacle, and with the glory of the kingdom which is displayed in the Temple.
When we come to the New Testament we find the same great principle pervading the Apostolic government as we see in the Patriarchal and National, for we have:
  • The twelve Apostles.
  • The twelve foundations in the heavenly Jerusalem.
  • The twelve gates.
  • The twelve pearls.
  • The twelve angels.

THE MEASUREMENT OF THE NEW JERUSALEM


will be 12,000 furlongs square, while the wall will be 144 (12 x 12) cubits, Revelation 21:16,17.
The number of the sealed in Revelation 7:4 will be 144,000, and all that has to do with the Twelve Tribes is necessarily pervaded by this number, such as the stones in the High Priest's breastplate, the stones taken out of the Jordan, the number of the spies, etc. etc., and therefore we have not referred to all such reference in these pages.



TWELVE PERSONS WERE ANOINTED


for government of various kinds. Of course, all kings, priests, prophets, and healed lepers were anointed; but the circumstances of the anointing of twelve individuals is specially recorded. Of these, five were priests (Aaron and his four sons, Exodus 6:23) and seven were kings:
  1. Aaron, Exodus 29:7,9, etc.
  2. Nadab, Exodus 29:7,9, etc.
  3. Abihu, Exodus 29:7,9, etc.
  4. Eleazar, Exodus 29:7,9, etc.
  5. Ithamar, Exodus 29:7,9, etc.
  6. Saul, 1 Samuel 10:1.
  7. David, * 1 Samuel 16:13.
  8. Absalom, 2 Samuel 19:10.
  9. Solomon, 1 Kings 1:39.
  10. Jehu, 2 Kings 9:6.
  11. Joash, 2 Kings 11:12.
  12. Jehoahaz, 2 Kings 23:30.
* David was anointed three times, viz:
by Samuel, 1 Samuel 16:13;
by the men of Judah, 2 Samuel 2:4;
by the elders of Israel, 2 Samuel 5:3.​
It will be observed from the above list that Saul, the man of man's choice, is thus stamped with the number 6. David, the man of God's choice is stamped with the number seven. For Saul and David are the sixth and seventh respectively in order. The words, "a man after God's own heart," mean simply a man of God's choice, and not, as infidels are never tired of asserting, that God approved of all the sins which David fell into.



TWELVE YEARS


of age was Jesus when He first appears in public (Luke 2:42) and utters His first-recorded words (see p. 52).



TWELVE LEGIONS


of angels mark the perfection of angelic powers (Matt 26:53).



THE HALF OF TWELVE


sometimes denotes interruption or defect in human government, while


THE NUMBER OF OCCURRENCES

of words agrees with its signification, e.g., aulh, aulee, "palace," occurs twelve times.
 
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Aijalon

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** I guess I had gotten off topic or something **

Sorry.

As to the symbolic nature of 12.... The twelve apostles were both real and the number carries symbolic meaning. The 12 tribes are a real number.... All I'm saying is that symbolism can only be carried so far. A number is not ONLY metaphoric, a metaphor is metaphoric.

Even if the number twelve stands for something, most likey having to do with Government. (like the 24 Elders...) That should not take away the significance of what else is going on in the text. The seal on the forehead. Is that only symbolic as well? The harps and the songs, are those only symbolic too? How far can this be taken?
 
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zeke37

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** I guess I had gotten off topic or something **

Sorry.

As to the symbolic nature of 12.... The twelve apostles were both real and the number carries symbolic meaning. The 12 tribes are a real number.... All I'm saying is that symbolism can only be carried so far. A number is not ONLY metaphoric, a metaphor is metaphoric.

Even if the number twelve stands for something, most likey having to do with Government. (like the 24 Elders...) That should not take away the significance of what else is going on in the text.
hi
as i said, it is MY opinion that the 144,000 is not a literal number.
but i have no problems at all if it is literal.
The seal on the forehead. Is that only symbolic as well?
well, it exists, but it is not a literal mark that others can physically see.
that much is so obvious, because of the description of the TYPE of mark it is,
and where else in the bible that info can also be found about the same kind of symbolic mark.
see Ex13, Deut6, Deut11 for God's mark,
where His mark, described the same way/location as both the SEALED ones mark in Rev7
and the mark of the Beast is,
is seen and very well described.

The harps and the songs, are those only symbolic too? How far can this be taken?
prob literal and symbolic
 
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Ludwig van Beethoven

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I got a problem. If we are going to go through the tribulation (which we are), and if it is going to happen very soon (which it is), then what is the point of the rest of life until then? I mean, for example, I like to make short movies, I like writing music, things like that, but I don't really feel like doing those things when I think about how, compared to the imminent threat of the tribulation, these things seem trivial, almost pointless. What's your opinion?
 
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I got a problem. If we are going to go through the tribulation (which we are), and if it is going to happen very soon (which it is), then what is the point of the rest of life until then? I mean, for example, I like to make short movies, I like writing music, things like that, but I don't really feel like doing those things when I think about how, compared to the imminent threat of the tribulation, these things seem trivial, almost pointless. What's your opinion?

Share the message of Jesus Christ through your work. Share the message fo readying your soul to got through the "refinement", ie tribulation. :thumbsup:
 
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Super Kal

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I got a problem. If we are going to go through the tribulation (which we are), and if it is going to happen very soon (which it is), then what is the point of the rest of life until then? I mean, for example, I like to make short movies, I like writing music, things like that, but I don't really feel like doing those things when I think about how, compared to the imminent threat of the tribulation, these things seem trivial, almost pointless. What's your opinion?

to preach to all exactly what John the Baptist taught in his day:

"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!"
 
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Messy

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I'm pretty sure that the 144,000 is a literal number, with a symboic meaning. But there is one thing that I'm even more sure about. Entirely symbolic or not, the 144,000 is a very big deal to Jesus and the end times. Otherwise there would not be half a chapter on it.
G12 (government of 12) principle: 12 leaders from every tribe of Israel with a cellgroup of 12 leaders
12 * 12 = 144 -> 156 leaders after one year
144 * 12 = 1728 + 156 = 1884 after two years
1728 * 12 = 20736 + 1884 = 22620 after three years
20736 * 6 = 124416 + 22620 = 147036 after 3,5 years
just gessing myself by the way.
 
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AlfredKeith

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WHEN THE RAPTURE OCCURS

As an advocate for the Post-Trib rapture, I want to present a new argument for this view by pointing out a common problem. The following is my proposed view for the order of events that occur when Christ returns at Armageddon.

1. The sun and moon are darkened, and the stars fall from heaven (Joel 2:31 & 3:14-16, Matt 24:29, Rev 6:12-14)
2. Christ appears in the clouds (Matt 24:30, Rev 19:11-18)
3. The nations mourn his appearing (Matt 24:30, Rev 6:15-17, Isa 2:10-22)
4. The Antichrist and his armies are destroyed (Rev 19:19-21)
5. Satan is bound in the Abyss (Rev 20:1-3)
6. “The Last Trumpet” - The Resurrection/Rapture of Believers (Matt 24:31, I Cor 15:51-52, Rev 20:4-6)

The common view of the different variations of the Post-Trib doctrine all place the resurrection/rapture of believers occurring before Christ appears at Armageddon. This view does not maintain harmony with Revelation 19-20. As listed above, the resurrection explicitly occurs after the armies of the Antichrist are destroyed at Armageddon.


THE LAST TRUMPET

As noted above, I believe that the “last trumpet” of I Corinthians 15:51-55 is the same trumpet as Matthew 24:31, and it occurs after Christ returns at Armageddon. The Pre-Tribbers disagree with this view. They argue the following:

- The “last trumpet” of I Corinthians 15:51-55 marks the end of the Church Age and occurs before the Tribulation begins.
- The “last trumpet” of Matthew 24:31 marks the end of the Tribulation.

As noted, the Pre-Tribbers advocate that there are two “last trumpets.” Needless to say, I completely disagree with the Pre-Trib view. I argue that there is only one “last trumpet,” and it occurs after Christ returns at Armageddon.

Another thing I will point out is that the “last trumpet” of Matt 24 & I Cor 15 has nothing to do with the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11 (but that is in a different chapter of my Bible study).


THE FIRST RESURRECTION

The Bible indicates that there are two resurrections: the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the unrighteous. The resurrection of the righteous is called the “first resurrection (Rev 20:4-6).” The resurrection of the unrighteous is called the “second death (Rev 20:6).”

To resolve the issue of the “first resurrection” occurring after Christ returns at Armageddon, the Pre-Tribbers argue that it is first in “type” and occurs in two phases (one resurrection before the Tribulation and one resurrection after). Their view advocates the following:

- Church Age believers are resurrected at the Rapture before the Tribulation begins.
- Martyred believers from the Tribulation are resurrected after Christ returns at Armageddon.
- Pre-Tribbers are split into two factions with regard to when Old Testament believers are resurrected. One faction argues that they are resurrected before the Tribulation at the Rapture, and the other faction argues that they are resurrected after Christ returns. Each faction has their own scriptural evidence to support their view.

Needless to say, I completely disagree with the Pre-Trib view. I argue that there is only one “first resurrection,” and it occurs after Christ returns at Armageddon. It does not occur in multiple phases.


THE WEDDING BANQUET

One thing that the Pre-Tribbers always throw in our faces is that the common views of the Post-Trib doctrine do not adequately address the issue of the Wedding Banquet of the Lamb. I will address this issue by looking at two key prophecies.

First, Isaiah 25:6-9 describes the Wedding Banquet of the Lamb. This Banquet is described as occurring on Mount Zion, which is a reference to Jerusalem. My view is that the Wedding Banquet of the Lamb occurs on earth in Jerusalem after Christ returns. This is the event that inaugurates the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom. Also in verse 8, it states that “he will swallow up death forever (NIV).” This phrase is quoted in I Corinthians 15:54 describing the resurrection of believers. I argue that this provides additional evidence that the resurrection of I Cor 15:51-55 occurs after the Tribulation and not before.

The Pre-Trib response to my view is:
- The prophecy in Isaiah 25:6-9 is describing the Millennial Kingdom. The banquet in verse 6 is generically describing the blessings we will receive in the Millennial Kingdom, not the Wedding Banquet of the Lamb.
- On the question of the reference to I Cor 15:54, they completely evade this point and refuse to accept that this prophecy has anything to do with the “last trumpet” of Matthew 24.

Second, Matthew 22:1-14 provides a parable describing the Wedding Banquet. In this parable, righteous people with “wedding clothes” appear together with people not having “wedding clothes.” The ones without “wedding clothes” are bound and thrown into hell. This is described in verses 11-14. My view of this parable is that the Wedding Banquet takes place on earth. The people with “wedding clothes” are resurrected believers, and the people without are the unrighteous. In order for these people to appear at the Wedding Banquet together, it has to be taking place on earth.

The Pre-Trib response to my view is:
- The Wedding Banquet takes place in heaven during the Tribulation. They provide no scriptural evidence to prove this.
- As far as the righteous and unrighteous appearing together at the Wedding Banquet, they make a generic argument that verses 11-14 are just describing the way God separates the unrighteous and sends them to hell when they die.

I consider the Pre-Trib response to my two key points to be very weak in reconciling what is described in these prophecies.
 
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skydiver626

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Here's a video I just finished that I believe highlights a serious flaw in the pre-trib theory. I was inspired to produce this after countless pre-tribbers tried to convince me that chapter 5 begins a new subject concerning the day of the Lord and that it has nothing to do with I Thess 4:16-17. An inescapable paradox arises when adhering to that line of thought.

Since I'm new here, I apparently can't add links yet so just go to:

youtube, type in "post tribulation rapture - the pre-tribulation paradox" into the search bar. It will come right up.
 
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Zadok7000

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Here's a video I just finished that I believe highlights a serious flaw in the pre-trib theory. I was inspired to produce this after countless pre-tribbers tried to convince me that chapter 5 begins a new subject concerning the day of the Lord and that it has nothing to do with I Thess 4:16-17. An inescapable paradox arises when adhering to that line of thought.

Since I'm new here, I apparently can't add links yet so just go to:

youtube, type in "post tribulation rapture - the pre-tribulation paradox" into the search bar. It will come right up.

That was FANTASTIC! :clap:
Visually stunning really. How long did it take you to do?
 
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