Popes are Redundant?

[Ringo84]

You make good points Ringo... I just think that any church as a democracy is a dangerous line to walk. It happened with the Pentecostals... when there was a movement that for baptisms, people should be baptized in the name of Jesus alone. So some people said, what about the Father and the Holy Spirit? So a lot of them decided that the Father and the Holy Spirit and Jesus were not 3 persons of the Triune God, but rather names for "roles" that the one person of God would act in. That group split off from main Pentecostals and are called the Oneness Pentecostals, and do not believe in a Trinitarian God, they deny the Trinity. All by democracy.
The thing about democracy is that the people have the power to make change. In politics it is the best system, but when it comes to matters of Eternal Truth.... no one has the power or should think they have the power to change that.

You make good points Ringo.

Thanks!

but when it comes to matters of Eternal Truth.... no one has the power or should think they have the power to change that.

Ooh....this is going to open up a huge can of worms, but although I believe that there are doctrines that are not debatable: the life and death of Jesus, the trinity, the Bible being a holy book and instruction book for life, etc, there are other doctrines that are more debatable: the ordination of women, church polity (such as what we're discussing here), etc.

I say this not to get into a debate about inerrancy and/or about the wisdom of ordinating women, but to say that sometimes, tradition is not always correct in its assessment of a particular point of doctrine or interpretation of a Bible verse. That's not to say, of course, that tradition is always wrong, of course.

To me, the idea of the denomination requiring a certain viewpoint is unnecessary. I believe that we're free to interpret the Bible for ourselves, within reason.
Ringo

 

[Rhamiel]

To me, the idea of the denomination requiring a certain viewpoint is unnecessary. I believe that we're free to interpret the Bible for ourselves, within reason.

who decides reason, who decides what is even the Bible, the Bible is not a book but a collection of books. and the comparing christian beliefs with elected leaders is bad, if a leader is bad, you get rid of him next election cycle, but doctrines are around for houndreds of years, changing a little with the spirit of each age, morphing slowly, a lot of the time into something unchristian, you can not just trust the congragation on this

 

[WarriorAngel]

What need is there for a Pope?
We have Jesus Christ who interceeds for us.
We have the Holy Spirit who leads and guides us.
We have GOD in us for goodness sake.


I don't see a need, and I dont read of one in the Bible.

You?

IF this were true then why did Jesus assign His ministry to the Apostles?
Did He or did He not pass on His ministry for them to continue to teach ppl?

 

[sunlover1]

IF this were true then why did Jesus assign His ministry to the Apostles?
Did He or did He not pass on His ministry for them to continue to teach ppl?

Certainly detailed information about deacons, elders,
etc.
But nothing about a pope.
IN fact, it shows very clearly
that it's Christ who is the head
of the church.

Thus my questioning the redundancy of popery.

Now Peter is told to feed (spiritual food) the sheep.
This went from feeding to ... popery??

Jesus never said he'd leave us a pope, He
said He'd leave us a comforter.



11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints,
for the work of the ministry,
for the edifying of the body of Christ:


Nothing mentioned here about "for the authority
to keep order" or whatever the popes job is.


13 Till we all come ind the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. http://foru.ms/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=6015928#_ftn2
d in: or, into


Hadn't seen you around, must be you're
enjoying the new site.
http://foru.ms/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=6015928#_ftnref2

 

[ps139]

Sunlover, I think our point is that after Jesus physically left Earth, He had to put someone in charge to run His Church.

If He had said "I'll be with each Christian in their heart - make your doctrinal and administrative decisions based on that knowledge" - there would have been chaos from day 1.

I think you fail to realize that we Catholics of course believe the head is ALWAYS God... we have the pope to be the shepherd on earth.

Your reading of Scripture shows no mention of a pope, mine does. The Bible mentions bishops as leaders, and we believe they are all "spiritually descended"(thru laying of the hands, or ordination) from the apostles. And since we believe Peter was leader of the apostles, we believe he was the leader of bishops. And his "seat," his successor, would also be leader of bishops.... this seat is Rome and it's bishop we call "pope," which began as a title of affection derived from the Latin.

 

[SpiritDriven]

Yeah, Im sure everyone here is aware of the cross and this gets said over and over again.

What about the resurrection (and...incarnation, baptism, transfiguration, suffering, death, ascension), because without this, nothing matters, you know?

Its not about adding to the cross or making ourselves right, but about needing to participate in the cross...if thats makes sense??

Repentance of your own actions and deeds to attain right standing with God.... that is the only thing you can really do.

Is your faith in Jesus Christ...plus nothing ?

 

[JamesThaddeusMartin]

Repentance of your own actions and deeds to attain right standing with God.... that is the only thing you can really do.

Is your faith in Jesus Christ...plus nothing ?

I honestly do understand what you are saying, I do.

To answer your question, I can not add to the cross. And, you are right, I must continually repent. My part is to continually seek the kingdom of God, keep His commandments, Love thy neighbor, fast, give alms and pray unceasingly.

But, in doing so, I am not, nor can I add to the cross, yet I am participating in this new life won on Calvary because I have been called to do so.


see what I mean??

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Yeah, myths aside.. I don't think we should try to claim lordship over each other in the faith. Maybe even to not have a leader if it'll make the faith stronger.. (In the autonomous churches even..)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I say this not to get into a debate about inerrancy and/or about the wisdom of ordinating women, but to say that sometimes, tradition is not always correct in its assessment of a particular point of doctrine or interpretation of a Bible verse. That's not to say, of course, that tradition is always wrong, of course.

To me, the idea of the denomination requiring a certain viewpoint is unnecessary. I believe that we're free to interpret the Bible for ourselves, within reason.
Ringo

Hi. Well I would also like to add that perhaps more accurate translations will also lead to more accurate interpretations.
There are far too many different translations though "most" of them use the same Greek/Hebrew MSS

Hebrews 7:12 for the Priesthood being changed, of necessity also, of Law a change doth come,

http://www.scripture4all.org/

topoV <5117> Used 16 times......2 Times in Revelation.

Reve 12:7 And became battle in the Heaven, the Miyka'el and the messengers of him, battle with the Dragon, and the Dragon battles and the messengers of him 8 and not he is strong, neither Place/topoV <5117>was found of Them still in the Heaven.


Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the land and the Heaven did flee away, and place/topoV <5117> was not found for Them;

 

[sunlover1]

who decides reason, who decides what is even the Bible, the Bible is not a book but a collection of books. and the comparing christian beliefs with elected leaders is bad, if a leader is bad, you get rid of him next election cycle, but doctrines are around for houndreds of years, changing a little with the spirit of each age, morphing slowly, a lot of the time into something unchristian, you can not just trust the congragation on this

Good question Rhamiel.

love,
sonlover

study hard ; )

 

[Hoankan]

Hi. Well I would also like to add that perhaps more accurate translations will also lead to more accurate interpretations.
There are far too many different translations though "most" of them use the same Greek/Hebrew MSS

Hebrews 7:12 for the Priesthood being changed, of necessity also, of Law a change doth come,

http://www.scripture4all.org/

topoV <5117> Used 16 times......2 Times in Revelation.

Reve 12:7 And became battle in the Heaven, the Miyka'el and the messengers of him, battle with the Dragon, and the Dragon battles and the messengers of him 8 and not he is strong, neither Place/topoV <5117>was found of Them still in the Heaven.


Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the land and the Heaven did flee away, and place/topoV <5117> was not found for Them;

Just one major point about this. Accuracy of words does not always reflect accuracy of meaning. The meaning of words and importance of each word can change as time goes by. If you don't know the meaning of the word to the people of that time, you may lose the true meaning. A modern example is the constant changing of slang with teens.

Also some words may not have a proper English translation and so a substitute word has to be used which may or may not be adequette and the chosen word will depend on the bias of the translator. A great example of this is a Japanese word that would litteraly take a paragraph in English to describe it and yet people try to give it a simple English substitute word that doesn't even come close to capturing the word.

To sum it up, it's hardly as simple as you'd like to make it sound.

 

[Rick Otto]

ps139;Sunlover, I think our point is that after Jesus physically left Earth, He had to put someone in charge to run His Church.

When the leader leaves, He's still the leader, the people left are stewards, not rulers.

If He had said "I'll be with each Christian in their heart - make your doctrinal and administrative decisions based on that knowledge" - there would have been chaos from day 1.

There was chaos from day one, but it being there didn't cause order to cease to exist. And actualy He did say that He would be with us:
Mt 28:20 - Show Context Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I think you fail to realize that we Catholics of course believe the head is ALWAYS God... we have the pope to be the shepherd on earth.

That is why we "fail to realize" Catholics believe the head is always God - because they place a second head on the Body.

Your reading of Scripture shows no mention of a pope, mine does.

Judge by the fruit.

The Bible mentions bishops as leaders, and we believe they are all "spiritually descended"(thru laying of the hands, or ordination) from the apostles. And since we believe Peter was leader of the apostles, we believe he was the leader of bishops. And his "seat," his successor, would also be leader of bishops.... this seat is Rome and it's bishop we call "pope," which began as a title of affection derived from the Latin.

[/quote]
We believe differently. We believe Jesus is the leader of bishops, as He was leader of the apostles. And we believe what He said about being with us. We also believe in the freedom to believe differently without being declared "anathema".

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There was chaos from day one, but it being there didn't cause order to cease to exist. And actualy He did say that He would be with us:
Mt 28:20 - Show Context Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I think you fail to realize that we Catholics of course believe the head is ALWAYS God... we have the pope to be the shepherd on earth.

That is why we "fail to realize" Catholics believe the head is always God - because they place a second head on the Body.

Kind of like a 2 headed cyclops?

Matthew 24:3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy Parousia, and of the full-end/sunteleiaV <4930> of the Age?'

Matthew 28:20 teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days--till the full-end/sunteleiaV <4930> of the Age.'

 

[Rick Otto]

...but definitely redundant! (props to Sunlover).

 

[Rhamiel]

When the leader leaves, He's still the leader, the people left are stewards, not rulers.

I agree with that 100%
the Pope is the vicar of Christ, His steward

 

[Rick Otto]

It is a little bit analogous to the President & The Constitution.
The Constitution limits the unending thirst of government for power. When the people allow their unruly servant (the President) to ignore the Constitution, you get errors like a Constitutional Republic in a Federation of States being turned into a Nation where power is centralized & concentrated, making it much easier to manipulate & further reaching in consequence.
The evil of slavery would've taken longer to abolish, but it would've still been inevitable, taking place thru social & economic pressures that would've served to evolve & mature those institutions into more humane organizations than the interest lobbying profit mongers and fascistic me-first associations we have today.

 

[sunlover1]

Sunlover, I think our point is that after Jesus physically left Earth, He had to put someone in charge to run His Church.

I thought He said He'd be with us always.
I didnt see Him say that anyone was 'in charge'
And if the keys passage had implied this,
Jesus didnt mention it.
He just said open and close, not lordship.
So no, I don't understand that.

If He had said "I'll be with each Christian in their heart - make your doctrinal and administrative decisions based on that knowledge" - there would have been chaos from day 1.

But He did say where two or more are gathered,
there I am among you.
And did say, "you need no 'man' to teach you,
because you have an unction from the Holy One"

I think you fail to realize that we Catholics of course believe the head is ALWAYS God... we have the pope to be the shepherd on earth.

Pastoring is biblical.

Your reading of Scripture shows no mention of a pope, mine does. The Bible mentions bishops as leaders,

K

and we believe they are all "spiritually descended"(thru laying of the hands, or ordination) from the apostles. And since we believe Peter was leader of the apostles, we believe he was the leader of bishops. And his "seat," his successor, would also be leader of bishops.... this seat is Rome and it's bishop we call "pope," which began as a title of affection derived from the Latin

But the key word here is "we believe" not, "the
Bible says".

This is where I am cautious.

God's the papa.
Did you get to see Rick's post?

love,
sunlover

 

[New_Wineskin]

What need is there for a Pope? - None that I know of .


We have Jesus Christ who interceeds for us. - yep
We have the Holy Spirit who leads and guides us. - yep
We have GOD in us for goodness sake. - yep

I don't see a need, and I dont read of one in the Bible.

You?

I don't see "bible" in the "bible" , either . There is no need for *it* , either . Why ? Because ...

We have Jesus Christ who interceeds for us.
We have the Holy Spirit who leads and guides us.
We have GOD in us for goodness sake.

 

[simonthezealot]

I agree with that 100%
the Pope is the vicar of Christ, His steward

This sounds like something a lil more than steward, it goes beyond servanty...

Take a listen.


For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire church has full, supreme and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered." (CCC 882)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

That is why we "fail to realize" Catholics believe the head is always God - because they place a second head on the Body.

Kind of like a 2 headed cyclops?

Matthew 24:3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy Parousia, and of the full-end/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?'

Matthew 28:20 teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days--till the full-end/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age.'

Me not know "Cyclops", kimosabe...

...but definitely redundant! (props to Sunlover).

I forgot the cyclop had one head and one eye.