Pope: Saving world from homosexuality like saving rainforests

[Nihilismus]

A student of the Talmud tells me that he has the word of God. A mullah demands of me recognition of Muhammed (peace be upon him) as the final prophet of God's revelation. Now you present me with yet another "holy book".

I desire a reason to believe you over any other.

 

[angellica]

A student of the Talmud tells me that he has the word of God. A mullah demands of me recognition of Muhammed (peace be upon him) as the final prophet of God's revelation. Now you present me with yet another "holy book".

I desire a reason to believe you over any other.

So you believe there is a Word of God?

 

[bsd13]

I was hoping you could point to a (not counting OT) verse that says you should treat the bible like law book set in stone, because i know of a few that say the opposite.

1 timothy 1:9-10

Galatians 3:10 (If you aren't saved you rely on the law)

Galatians 3:25 (For the saved, those to whom faith has come they are not under the law)

There's just a few. Commentary to the verses added by myself, obviously. Now how about yours that say the opposite? I can guarantee that they will make a distinction between believers and non-believers. Either shortly before, after, or within the verse itself.

 

[Nihilismus]

For the sake of argument, I will grant that a "Word of God" exists.

Now please explain how you know what it is.

 

[WhatThe]

Sex between a married man and woman isn't an issue for anyone. God has blessed that. Sex between unmarried persons, and/or sex between persons of the same gender is the issue. God has NOT blessed that.

And why, is my point. Why can two people be in a manogamous relationship without being married, and have sex? There's nothing wrong with that.
Answer: Because marriage ensures that both partners and their offspring become a part of the religious congregation. That is the reason why sex out of marriage is a 'sin'.

 

[Aianna]

Here's 3 for you. God's word against homosexual
Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Leviticus is known well for saying ridiculous things.

Leviticus - If a man has sex with an engaged female slave, punish the female, but not the male.

19:20 And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

19:21 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even a ram for a trespass offering.

Romans 1:26,27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

Thankfully this is from Paul and not Jesus who also writes such things as these following views he has about women:

1 Corinthians

11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

Genesis 19 - How God dealt with two ancient cities full of perversion.

I don't think the whole reason Sodom and Gomorrah were allegedly destroyed was due to homosexuality; I think the whole being abusive, uncharitable, rapists thing was the real message the authors were going for. I think the other references to the cities seem to support that.

Isaiah

3:8 For Jerusalem is ruined, and Judah is fallen: because their tongue and their doings are against the LORD, to provoke the eyes of his glory.
3:9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.

16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

Jeremiah

23:14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness; they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

I don't see any mention of homosexuality in or around these verses. It's also nice to note Jesus spoke out against it exactly zero time.

 

[bsd13]

bsd13:

"Sex between a married man and woman isn't an issue for anyone. God has blessed that. Sex between unmarried persons, and/or sex between persons of the same gender is the issue. God has NOT blessed that."
​

Nihilismus:

"Evidence?"
​

bsd13:

"Here's 3 for you. God's word against homosexual relations, both OT and NT in case anyone thinks that has changed.-

Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Romans 1:26,27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."
​

But do you personally go along with this? That what's written in the OT is pretty binding? That if it says a man who lies with a man as one lies with a woman is detestable, then it is?

Most certainly it is in God's eyes. Why would God lie and say it was detestable if it wasn't? As a human I think it's kinda odd to want to be with another man, but what I think doesn't matter. I'm nothing.

 

[Garyzenuf]

Romans is NT.

And I think he better stick to quoting the NT, because if he starts judging others by the OT that I believe is how your God will judge him, and without mercy.

*

 

[WhatThe]

Leviticus also says that it's an abomination to eat shellfish. But who follows that?

And you don't think it's odd to be with another man "as a human". It's your sexuality that makes you find it odd, not your humanity.

 

[Nathan45]

1 timothy 1:9-10

Galatians 3:10 (If you aren't saved you rely on the law)

Galatians 3:25 (For the saved, those to whom faith has come they are not under the law)

There's just a few. Commentary to the verses added by myself, obviously. Now how about yours that say the opposite? I can guarantee that they will make a distinction between believers and non-believers. Either shortly before, after, or within the verse itself.

I was actually about to quote galatians 3:25 to you but you beat me too it. Odd

I have no idea why you apparently think the law only applies to people who don't accept the law:

Instead i'll quote other verses.


Romans 14:14

I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.

mt 7:1-2

‘Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. 2For with the judgement you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.

Romans 14:1-6

14Welcome those who are weak in faith, but not for the purpose of quarrelling over opinions. 2Some believe in eating anything, while the weak eat only vegetables. 3Those who eat must not despise those who abstain, and those who abstain must not pass judgement on those who eat; for God has welcomed them. 4Who are you to pass judgement on servants of another? It is before their own lord that they stand or fall. And they will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
5 Some judge one day to be better than another, while others judge all days to be alike. Let all be fully convinced in their own minds. 6Those who observe the day, observe it in honour of the Lord. Also those who eat, eat in honour of the Lord, since they give thanks to God; while those who abstain, abstain in honour of the Lord and give thanks to God.

 

[Nathan45]

Most certainly it is in God's eyes. Why would God lie and say it was detestable if it wasn't? As a human I think it's kinda odd to want to be with another man, but what I think doesn't matter. I'm nothing.

another thing i don't get is this...

Jesus denounced the scribes repeatedly and often.

Leviticus contains all kinds of barbaric things, such as animal sacrifice.

Scribes wrote leviticus, who Jesus denounced, often, loudly, repeatedly, yet you still say leviticus is the word of God.


Here's what the book of Jeremiah says:

Jeremiah 8:8 (NRSV)

How can you say, ‘We are wise,
and the law of the Lord is with us’,
when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes
has made it into a lie?

Jeremiah 7:22-23 (NRSV)

Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Add your burnt-offerings to your sacrifices, and eat the flesh.

22For on the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt-offerings and sacrifices.

Yet, the first 10 chapters of leviticus are all about how God taught moses blood sacrifice, and you still say it's the Word of God.

 

[bsd13]

Leviticus is known well for saying ridiculous things.

Leviticus - If a man has sex with an engaged female slave, punish the female, but not the male.

Really?

Leviticus 19:20-21 - " 'If a man sleeps with a woman who is a slave girl promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment. Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting for a guilt offering to the LORD.

Some translation say "scourged" instead of "due punishment". Both of them were to be scourged. Not just the woman. On top of it the man had to bring a guilt offering to the Lord.

I don't think the whole reason Sodom and Gomorrah were allegedly destroyed was due to homosexuality; I think the whole being abusive, uncharitable, rapists thing was the real message the authors were going for. I think the other references to the cities seem to support that.

Fine, it was just one of MANY reasons. Our God is a patient God.

I don't see any mention of homosexuality in or around these verses. It's also nice to note Jesus spoke out against it exactly zero time.

I'm sorry, but what do Isaiah and Jeremiah have to do with anything I said?

As for Jesus not saying anything specifically about homosexuality... There's many things He didn't mention specifically. Does that mean He condoned them? If I don't speak out against clubbing baby seals does that mean I condone it? No, it means that I expect anyone who knows me knows I do not condone it. Anyone who knows Christ knows He never has and never will condone homosexual relations.

 

[bsd13]

And I think he better stick to quoting the NT, because if he starts judging others by the OT that I believe is how your God will judge him, and without mercy.

*

Pointing out what God's word says is by no means judging people.

 

[Aianna]

Some translation say "scourged" instead of "due punishment". Both of them were to be scourged. Not just the woman. On top of it the man had to bring a guilt offering to the Lord.

Even if other versions say he needs a burnt offering, that's another great example. The innocent ram has to suffer for the mistakes of the person.

Fine, it was just one of MANY reasons. Our God is a patient God.

I'm still not convinced the story even says anything about homosexuality. All the "homosexual acts" are acts of rape, which the authors should oppose. There's a pretty good discussion on the story here. http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibg.htm#sodom

I'm sorry, but what do Isaiah and Jeremiah have to do with anything I said?

It's quite simple, they were references to Sodom and Gomorrah that imply the cities were "wrong" for different reasons and that Jerusalem was in a state like they were while saying nothing of homosexuality in Jerusalem.

As for Jesus not saying anything specifically about homosexuality... There's many things He didn't mention specifically. Does that mean He condoned them? If I don't speak out against clubbing baby seals does that mean I condone it? No, it means that I expect anyone who knows me knows I do not condone it. Anyone who knows Christ knows He never has and never will condone homosexual relations.

It's not an issue of condoning; it's an issue of having no problem with homosexuality.

The problem here is that you're starting off assuming homosexuality is wrong. It's not an obvious thing. If you say nothing about left-handedness being wrong there's no reason for me to think you have a problem with left-handed people.

 

[Washington]

But do you personally go along with this? That what's written in the OT is pretty binding? That if it says a man who lies with a man as one lies with a woman is detestable, then it is?

Most certainly it is in God's eyes. Why would God lie and say it was detestable if it wasn't?

Then I'm assuming you too find it detestable---because god says it is, I take it.

Care to confirm or deny?

 

[bsd13]

Even if other versions say he needs a burnt offering, that's another great example. The innocent ram has to suffer for the mistakes of the person.

God owns the goat (as well as everything in all creation). As the owner would He not have the right to do with it as he pleases?

I'm still not convinced the story even says anything about homosexuality. All the "homosexual acts" are acts of rape, which the authors should oppose. There's a pretty good discussion on the story here. http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibg.htm#sodom

Genesis 19:4-5 - Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

Isn't that the definition of homosexuality? Men desiring to have sex with other men. Not even consensual, but these two verses speak of men raping other men. Notice it says "Bring them out..." it doesn't say "Ask them if they're willing..."

It's quite simple, they were references to Sodom and Gomorrah that imply the cities were "wrong" for different reasons and that Jerusalem was in a state like they were while saying nothing of homosexuality in Jerusalem.

Those verses you quoted are speaking of the fact that they were taking pride in their sins and didn't even try to hide them from God. They absolutely did not care that they were sinning. The verses don't specify the exact sins other than to say "their doings" which would indicate the things they had done which were sins.

It's not an issue of condoning; it's an issue of having no problem with homosexuality.

Jesus made a very profound statement in the scriptures. Well lots of them but this one is what I'm referring to -

Matthew 12:30 - "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."

In other words if one has "no problem with" homosexuality, or any other issue which God has decreed as sinful then they stand directly opposed to God.

The problem here is that you're starting off assuming homosexuality is wrong. It's not an obvious thing. If you say nothing about left-handedness being wrong there's no reason for me to think you have a problem with left-handed people.

Before I knew Christ I thought it was strange, but ok. You know everyone do their own thing and just love one another. I didn't assume it was "wrong". I had no concept of wrong unless it personally offended me, because I was what mattered.

 

[bsd13]

Then I'm assuming you too find it detestable---because god says it is, I take it.

Care to confirm or deny?

Confirmed. At this point I most certainly do believe it to be detestable.

 

[Aianna]

God owns the goat (as well as everything in all creation). As the owner would He not have the right to do with it as he pleases?

If one is punishing the goat (I thought it said ram, but either way) for something another being did then they are doing something immoral. This includes any all-powerful beings which may exist.

Isn't that the definition of homosexuality? Men desiring to have sex with other men. Not even consensual, but these two verses speak of men raping other men. Notice it says "Bring them out..." it doesn't say "Ask them if they're willing..."

Yes, it does speak about rape. That's my entire point. Rape is wrong regardless of it being homosexual or heterosexual. My point is that the story isn't as against consensual homosexual sex as people seem to think it is.

Those verses you quoted are speaking of the fact that they were taking pride in their sins and didn't even try to hide them from God. They absolutely did not care that they were sinning. The verses don't specify the exact sins other than to say "their doings" which would indicate the things they had done which were sins.

The point being is that there's not much ground to assert the story about the two cities is speaking out against consensual homosexual sex when I can't find any references to the cities that explicitly deal with it.

Jesus made a very profound statement in the scriptures. Well lots of them but this one is what I'm referring to -

Matthew 12:30 - "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."

In other words if one has "no problem with" homosexuality, or any other issue which God has decreed as sinful then they stand directly opposed to God.

The entire point I'm making is that in your book, your god doesn't condemn homosexuality outside of the books that also speak about things such as slavery and the like. When I ask about Leviticus 25:44-46 I'm often told that I'm taking them out of context. If that's the case, Leviticus 18:22 is out of context as well.

 

[Washington]

Then I'm assuming you too find it detestable---because god says it is, I take it.
Care to confirm or deny?

Confirmed. At this point I most certainly do believe it to be detestable.

Then you must also go along with Leviticus 20:13, which you quoted,

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
​

 

[Morcova]

Sex between a married man and woman isn't an issue for anyone. God has blessed that. Sex between unmarried persons, and/or sex between persons of the same gender is the issue. God has NOT blessed that.

Is it too much to ask for people to keep their mythologies out of other peoples bedrooms?