Pope, King of the world?

JacktheCatholic said:

You mean this post?



No where does he say the Pope is King.

*further evidence that Sola Scriptura does not work.

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No, but he did say he agreed with the statement. Playing games again? Being sincere in a discussion is customary.

simonthezealot said:

Jack you need to slow down...
The lists of papal definitions are NOT part of unam sanctum..
I was showing multiple writings approved by the church that state how he is to be viewed by christians...
That list is from a canonical library...

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From the 18th century and this appears to be the 5th copy which would have been later. I have a copy in Latin and it is written by a Jesuit priest but I am not sure of your translation of the background.

It is not a Apostolic Letter from the Pope regardless.

I am still researching and it does sound familiar...

spiritman said:

No, but he did say he agreed with the statement. Playing games again? Being sincere in a discussion is customary.

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You are obviously reading more into than there is. All I read was that there may eb a possibility. This is why Sola Scriptura does not work, every one has their own interpretation of what they read. Big Failure.

But ask him what he meant.

Standing Up said:

SOF wrote:

Please note two things in your discussion.

1) Jesus will give the keys. This is future tense. It hasn't happened yet. This is further confirmed by Jesus saying:

2) Rev. 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

unless, of course, you are prepared to state that that is Peter speaking.

If you reply, well I meant keys plural, rather than key, please further note that again it is again Christ Jesus who retains the keys up to this moment.

Rev. 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

As to your Shebna (the scribe) understanding, here is what Christ Jesus says, Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

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Are we to conclude that the Reformers of the sixteenth century better understood the tenets of the Christian Faith than early Christian teachers.


Just before his ascension, Jesus gave his disciples this commission:
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Matt. 28:18-20.



Did Jesus lie after promising
to be with His Church till the end left it and ordained men who gave us a different one. The Church He created for 1500 years was distorted one as far as doctrines are concerned so everyone before 1500 would burn in Hell?


Everyone is trying to make himself a Scripture Scholar. The following commentary is all from Protestant Scripture scholars.


[The steward is] the king's friend, or principal officer of the court (1 Kings 4:5; 18:3; 1 Chronicles 27:33, the king's counsellor) . . .

Keys are carried sometimes in the East hanging from the kerchief on the shoulder. But the phrase is rather figurative for sustaining the government on one's shoulders. Eliakim, as his name implies, is here plainly a type of the God-man Christ, the son of "David," of whom Isaiah (ch. 9:6) uses the same language as the former clause of this verse [and the government will be upon his shoulder].

(Jamieson, Robert, Andrew R. Fausset & David Brown, Commentary on the Whole Bible, Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1961 [orig. 1864; Fausset and Brown were Anglicans, Brown Presbyterian], 536 -- on Isaiah 22:15,22)

In the . . . exercise of the power of the keys, in ecclesiastical discipline, the thought is of administrative authority (Is 22:22) with regard to the requirements of the household of faith. The use of censures, excommunication, and absolution is committed to the Church in every age, to be used under the guidance of the Spirit . . .

So Peter, in T.W. Manson's words, is to be 'God's vicegerent . . . The authority of Peter is an authority to declare what is right and wrong for the Christian community. His decisions will be confirmed by God' (The Sayings of Jesus, 1954, p.205).

(New Bible Dictionary, ed. J.D. Douglas, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans Pub. Co., 1962, 1018)

In accordance with Matthew's understanding of the kingdom of heaven (i.e., of God) as anywhere God reigns, the keys here represent authority in the Church.

(Eerdmans Bible Dictionary, ed. Allen C. Myers, Grabd Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, rev. ed., 1975, 622)

The phrase is almost certainly based on Is 22:22 where Shebna the steward is displaced by Eliakim and his authority is transferred to him. 'And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.' (This is applied directly to Jesus in Rev 3:7).

(New Bible Commentary, Guthrie, D. & J.A. Motyer, eds., Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 3rd ed., 1970 [Reprinted, 1987, as The Eerdmans Bible Commentary], 837)

In the Old Testament a steward is a man who is 'over a house' (Gen 43:19, 44:4; Is 22:15, etc). In the New Testament there are two words translated steward: 'epitropos' (Mt 20:8; Gal 4:2), i.e. one to whose care or honour one has been entrusted, a curator, a guardian; and 'oikonomos' (Lk 16:2-3; 1 Cor 4:1-2; Titus 1:7; 1 Pet 4:10), i.e. a manager, a superintendent -- from 'oikos' ('house') and 'nemo' ('to dispense' or 'to manage'). The word is used to describe the function of delegated responsibility.

(New Bible Dictionary, ed. J.D. Douglas, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans Pub. Co., 1962, 1216)

For further references to the office of the steward in Old Testament times, see 1 Kings 4:6; 16:9; 18:3; 2 Kings 10:5; 15:5; 18:18, where the phrases used are "over the house," "steward," or "governor." In Isaiah 22:15, in the same passage to which our Lord apparently refers in Matt 16:19, Shebna, the soon-to-be deposed steward, is described in various translations as:
As the robe and the baldric, mentioned in the preceding verse, were the ensigns of power and authority, so likewise was the key the mark of office, either sacred or civil. This mark of office was likewise among the Greeks, as here in Isaiah, borne on the shoulder. In allusion to the image of the key as the ensign of power, the unlimited extent of that power is expressed with great clearness as well as force by the sole and exclusive authority to open and shut. Our Saviour, therefore, has upon a similar occasion made use of a like manner of expression, Matt 16:19; and in Rev 3:7 has applied to himself the very words of the prophet.

(Adam Clarke, [Methodist], Commentary on the Bible, abridged ed., Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1967 [orig. 1832], 581)

Eliakim stands in strong contrast to Shebna . . . Godward he is called 'my servant' (v.20; cf. 'this steward', v.15); manward, he will be 'a father' to his community (v.21) . . .

The opening words of v.22, with their echo of 9:6, emphasize the God-given responsibility that went with it [possession of the keys], to be used in the king's interests. The 'shutting' and 'opening' mean the power to make decisions which no one under the king could override. This is the background of the commission to Peter (cf. Mt 16:19) and to the church (cf. Mt 18:18).

(New Bible Commentary, Guthrie, D. & J.A. Motyer, eds., Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 3rd ed., 1970 [Reprinted, 1987, as The Eerdmans Bible Commentary], 603)

Not only is Peter to have a leading role, but this role involves a daunting degree of authority (though not an authority which he alone carries, as may be seen from the repetition of the latter part of the verse in 18:18 with reference to the disciple group as a whole). The image of 'keys' (plural) perhaps suggests not so much the porter, who controls admission to the house, as the steward, who regulates its administration (cf. Is 22:22, in conjunction with 22:15). The issue then is not that of admission to the church . . . , but an authority derived from a 'delegation' of God's sovereignty.

(R.T. France; in Morris, Leon, Gen. ed., Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, Leicester, England: Inter-Varsity Press / Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans Pub. Co., 1985, vol. 1: Matthew, 256)

Just as in Isaiah 22:22 the Lord puts the keys of the house of David on the shoulders of his servant Eliakim, so does Jesus hand over to Peter the keys of the house of the kingdom of heaven and by the same stroke establishes him as his superintendent. There is a connection between the house of the Church, the construction of which has just been mentioned and of which Peter is the foundation, and the celestial house of which he receives the keys. The connection between these two images is the notion of God's people.

(Oscar Cullmann, Peter: Disciple, Apostle, Martyr, Neuchatel: Delachaux & Niestle, 1952 French ed., 183-184)

The prime minister, more literally 'major-domo,' was the man called in Hebrew 'the one who is over the house,' a term borrowed from the Egyptian designation of the chief palace functionary . . .

The power of the key of the Davidic kingdom is the power to open and to shut, i.e., the prime minister's power to allow or refuse entrance to the palace, which involves access to the king . . . Peter might be portrayed as a type of prime minister in the kingdom that Jesus has come to proclaim . . . What else might this broader power of the keys include? It might include one or more of the following: baptismal discipline; post-baptismal or penitential discipline; excommunication; exclusion from the eucharist; the communication or refusal of knowledge; legislative powers; and the power of governing.

(Peter in the New Testament, Brown, Raymond E., Karl P. Donfried and John Reumann, editors, Minneapolis: Augsburg Pub. House/New York: Paulist Press, 1973, 96-97. Common statement by a panel of eleven Catholic and Lutheran scholars)

In biblical and Judaic usage handing over the keys does not mean appointment as a porter but carries the thought of full authorization (cf. Mt. 13:52; Rev. 3:7) . . . The implication is that Jesus takes away this authority from the scribes and grants it to Peter.

(J. Jeremias, in Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel, abridgement of Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1985, 440)

All these New Testament pictures and usages go back to a picture in Isaiah (Is 22:22) . . . Now the duty of Eliakim was to be the faithful steward of the house . . . So then what Jesus is saying to Peter is that in the days to come, he will be the steward of the Kingdom.

(William Barclay, Gospel of Matthew, Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1975, vol. 2, 144-145)

Isa 22:15 ff. undoubtedly lies behind this saying . . . The keys are the symbol of authority . . . the same authority as that vested in the vizier, the master of the house, the chamberlain, of the royal household in ancient Israel. Eliakim is described as having the same authority in Isaiah.

(William F. Albright and C.S. Mann, Anchor Bible: Matthew, Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1971, 196)

And what about the "keys of the kingdom"? . . . About 700 B.C. an oracle from God announced that this authority in the royal palace in Jerusalem was to be conferred on a man called Eliakim . . . (Isa. 22:22). So in the new community which Jesus was about to build, Peter would be, so to speak, chief steward.

(F.F. Bruce, The Hard Sayings of Jesus, Downers Grove, IL: Intervarsity Press, 1983, 143-144)

The symbol of the keys, in the East, always implied power and authority, and the giving of the keys the transfer of that authority. Even in our day when we wish to honor a visitor of prominence we give him the keys of the city . . .

'The gift of the keys,' writes Lagrange, 'is, therefore, an investiture of power over all the house. The owner still keeps the sovereign power, but delegates its exercise to a major-domo . . . Christ has the keys of David (Rev 3:7); He gives St. Peter the keys. St. Peter's authority, therefore, is the authority of Jesus, which He ratifies in heaven' (Evangile selon S. Matthieu, 328).

(Bertrand Conway, The Question Box, New York: Paulist Press, 1929, 146)

Standing Up said:

Actually you are wrong. Jesus at no time in scripture gave keys to any of the Apostles.

Please note two things about Mt. 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Jesus will give the keys. This is future tense. It hasn't happened yet. This is further confirmed by Jesus saying:

Rev. 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

unless, of course, you are prepared to state that that is Peter speaking.

If you reply, well I meant keys plural, rather than key, please further note that again it is again Christ Jesus who retains the keys up to this moment.

Rev. 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

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Then you concede that only Peter was promised the Keys and no other.

JacktheCatholic said:

You are obviously reading more into than there is. All I read was that there may eb a possibility. This is why Sola Scriptura does not work, every one has their own interpretation of what they read. Big Failure.

But ask him what he meant.

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You don't know what it means to say I agree with the statement? Are you now playing the I don't know anything game?

ahhhhh.... thanks Trento.... I hadn't gotten my daily dose of Cut 'N Paste.... I feel much better now.

SecretOfFatima said:

-snip-


Let me start to address catholics first who may in fact be questioning why does revelation 3:7 seem to contradict isaiah 22:22 and mathew 16.

I recommend that you listen or read some stuff by Scott Hahn, take no notice of what anti-Catholics say on this matter as they have no clue, Scott explains this very well, and nothing in revelation 3:7 contradicts what the church still believes today as it did back in the first century, and surely it does not contradictsthe fact that Jesus gave Peter the keys (authority) to administer authority and ecclesiastical discipline when it comes to church matters. Is biblical and does not put the Pope above Jesus in any way.

Here is an overview about Revelation 3:7 but please don't expect anyone outside of the church to take this in or to believe as this is not just what we believe.
hint: Holy Mass and the True Presence

Revelation 3:7 does describe Christ himself as a high priest (hint: isn't the book o revelation partially talking about the Holy Mass afterall?), while this passage for someone outside the church or for someone who does not truly understand what the Catholic church beliefs always have been, may sound as if Isaiah 22:22 and Matthew 16 cannot apply to the Pope, but in fact in my personal opinion it clearly does, obviouly if you don't understand the other teachings then you are not gone agree with this.
-snip-

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It is not hard to take this in or believe it at all. There is nothing mysterious or difficult with what you say, as it is your "personal opinion".

Christ Jesus says will give the keys, future tense. In Revelation He confirms this, saying I (Christ Jesus) have the keys, present tense.

The alternative to believing that is as you say, personal opinion.

Uphill Battle said:

ahhhhh.... thanks Trento.... I hadn't gotten my daily dose of Cut 'N Paste.... I feel much better now.

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Your welcome.

JacktheCatholic said:

Then you concede that only Peter was promised the Keys and no other.

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Here's what an associate of yours wrote:

Just before his ascension, Jesus gave his disciples this commission:
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Matt. 28:18-20.

another minute there, and I'd have had to sniff some glue and run with scissors.

whew.

Standing Up said:

Here's what an associate of yours wrote:

Just before his ascension, Jesus gave his disciples this commission:
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Matt. 28:18-20.

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So we see that Jesus has come into His kingdom and thus Peter would have received the Keys. Thanks

spiritman said:

You don't know what it means to say I agree with the statement? Are you now playing the I don't know anything game?

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If there are games being played it is not by me.

You just keep proving that Sola Scriptura is full of errors because there are so many errors in the way people read scripture.

Once you realize that the Bible (though inspired by God) is not an authority but only a tool meant to be used by those in authority then you can see the folly in everyone making themselves the authority with Sola Scriptura.

Trento said:

Are we to conclude that the Reformers of the sixteenth century better understood the tenets of the Christian Faith than early Christian teachers.


Just before his ascension, Jesus gave his disciples this commission:
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Matt. 28:18-20.



Did Jesus lie after promising
to be with His Church till the end left it and ordained men who gave us a different one. The Church He created for 1500 years was distorted one as far as doctrines are concerned so everyone before 1500 would burn in Hell?

-snip-

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You are confusing the issue, yet I shudder when I read your question that implies you are saved by the Church, not by the Grace of God Almighty.

Per Matthew, Christ Jesus will give the keys (future tense). Per Revelation, He still has the keys (present tense).

JacktheCatholic said:

So we see that Jesus has come into His kingdom and thus Peter would have received the Keys. Thanks

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No, you are wrong.

Rev. 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev. 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

dupl

dupl

Standing Up said:

Per Matthew, Christ Jesus will give the keys (future tense). Per Revelation, He still has the keys (present tense).

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Have you ever considered how Christianity understood Matthew 16 and Peter receiving the Keys? Just take a look at the first 1500 years of Christianity and you will find a common or rather catholic theme.

* Another fine example how 1900 years of Christianity and it's constant teachings regarding the Keys from Matthew 16 is changed... even Martin Luther knew as much.

JacktheCatholic said:

Have you ever considered how Christianity understood Matthew 16 and Peter receiving the Keys? Just take a look at the first 1500 years of Christianity and you will find a common or rather catholic theme.

* Another fine example how 1900 years of Christianity and it's constant teachings regarding the Keys from Matthew 16 is changed... even Martin Luther knew as much.

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Well, once you convince the RCC's Sister Church, the Orthodox, thattheir view is also wrong on Peter and the Pope, then we can really start discussing.
But then I have already lost track of how many Peter/Pope threads have been on GT..EGADS!!!!

LittleLambofJesus said:

Well, once you convince the RCC's Sister Church, the Orthodox, thattheir view is also wrong on Peter and the Pope, then we can really start discussing.
But then I have already lost track of how many Peter/Pope threads have been on GT..EGADS!!!!

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The Orthodox teach that Peter received the Keys. They also aknowledge the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome. Cool how the oldest Christian Churches share in this.