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Pope, King of the world?

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simonthezealot

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Please let me try to clarify some points about what we Catholics truly believe
(note: what we believe can be backed up by scripture).
Not in all cases...Catholic doctrine has the maxim that allows for things not to be grounded in scripture or even history yet still be true...

but we truly believe in the autority of the church (unlike thousands of protestant denominations and secs that cannot fully agreed in all matters,
Oh please you guys have not agreed even from the earliest times.

I would go further and say that my perception on behalf of us Catholics is that all forces who may fight against the authority given to the Holy Father are simply doing the work of the enemy (satan himself).
WOW talk about offensive! for real? this is what you think?
I can show this stuff even in its native language...you want to accuse me of showing things out of context quantify your statement!



Quote the rest of the passage! especially verse 25...
then continue trying to use this passage for support of a papacy...
 
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simonthezealot

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WOW talk about offensive! for real? this is what you think?


Guess this does confirm that you are a true blue catholic inline with bulls indices and statements i've quoted here on this thread and on prior threads...
 
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StreetPreacher82

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I personally do not see anything in that scripture that leads me to believe Peter was the first Pope and that is a genuine statement. Honestly, I only have one problem with the Catholic faith and that is the belief that they are the only ones who are correct. There is not one once of scripture that I can find that warrants that. Like I said earlier, Catholics and Protestants both have pieces of the puzzle, not the entire thing.
 
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SecretOfFatima

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Guess this does confirm that you are a true blue catholic inline with bulls indices and statements i've quoted here on this thread and on prior threads...

Please re-read what I had already quoted in the original post:

The bible is full of references to the need for respect of authority. It is also full of references for the need for unity. In one parable Jesus is explaining how he could not be of Satanic origin (Mark 3:22), "How can Satan drive out Satan?" In this parable he points out the importance of leadership. "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand." Throughout the scripture we always see - One God, One Son, One Holy Spirit, One Church.


guess what? Amen, Verse 25 means exactly what it says and does not contradict anything the Catholic church beleives. You should remember that the Holy Bible is a Catholic Book, first came the Church then came the Bible, well at least for now we both can agree that all the NT books remain the same .

Instead of dwelving into verse 25 please let me expand further on an interesting fact about isaiah 22:19-22

Hezekiah was at the time, the king over Israel. He was the son of David, hundreds of years after David had died. He was in the line of David and also he was ruler over the House of David. Now all kings in the ancient world had, as kings and queens have these days, cabinet officers, a cabinet of royal ministers. Like Margaret Thatcher was the Prime Minister, so there are other ministers under the Queen in Great Britain. Hezekiah, as King, had as his Prime Minister before Shebna who proved unworthy. So he was expelled, but when he was expelled, he left an office vacant. Not only did you have dynastic succession for the king, but you also have a dynastic office for the Prime Minister. When Shebna is expelled, there is an empty office that needs to be filled and that's why Eliakim is called to fill it.

But did you know what is most interesting about this OT story, the cabinet of royal ministers consisted of exactly 12 ministers, of which only 1 was ellected.

Bishop Fulton Sheen, who used to prefer a certain protestant bible commentary instead of the catholic ones, once said
"There are not over a 100 people in the U.S. that hate the Catholic Church, there are millions however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church -- which is, of course, quite a different thing."

Simon, if you have specific question about the church that Christ established please pop over to the OBOB area and ask each question separately, i'm quite sure that everyone will be very happy to help you.
 
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DD2008

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Matthew 16:15-19

15] He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
[16] Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
[17] And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
[19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Peter speaks the truth of Christ. Christ tells Peter that he knows the truth because it was revealed to him from God. Next Christ changes Peter's name from Simon to Peter (rock). I think that the keys and the binding and loosing have something to do with the position of being chosen by God to build the Church and bear the eternal truth in the penning of scripture under the chosen inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

I have not found anything in the scriptures or in the early Church fathers that indicates that the keys or the powers of binding and loosing were passed to Linus. It is obvious from scripture and from the early church fathers that there was recorded succession of bishops and that Rome was held as a primary seat of respect because it was the final Church of Peter and Paul, thought to be unshakable in faith because of that fact, and it was as we all know the capital of the civilized world. All roads led to Rome back then. However, there is absolutely nothing that I have found about papal infallability, passing on of keys and binding and loosing, until much much later in history.

Back when Peter and Paul and the other apostles built the Church and there after the Church was concerned mainly with preaching the gospel of Christ as handed on by the apostles, taking communion, and the reading of the scriptures, including many New Testament scriptures we all know today, that were fresh off the writing table back then. The office of the pope simply was not there as we know it today. Yes Peter was the primary apostle, but after he passed I believe that passed with him. The keys were given to Peter not to Linus.

The chair of Peter is an interesting thing but it wasn't held authoritative like it is today, at all. There came at some point in time a consolidation of power in the western Church that I think used the Church of Rome for something that Peter and Paul didn't intend. I haven't found the exact occurance yet, but I think it probably has something to do with Constantine or shortly therafter. The early writings get a little different after that time. They get even more different after the fall of Rome. However, it must be admitted that there are many things we find in the ECF writings that are still present inthe Church today. The infallable papal office just isn't one of them.

Anything that is necessary to know is in scripture.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Psalms 119:160

[160] The sum of thy word is truth;
and every one of thy righteous ordinances endures for ever.


If the pope was infallable we could cite the passage that says the Roman pontiff shall be infallable in teaching the truth. In addition statements like the last sentace of Unam Sanctum certainly prove the pope is not infallable as it contradicts the scripture that says:

Ephesians 2:8-9

[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --
[9] not because of works, lest any man should boast.

There is no scripture that says "every human creature must be subject to the Roman Pontiff for salvation". But there certainly is one that says we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

 
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spiritman

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Originally Posted by spiritman

Hi friend,

Do you believe this statement?

#13. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions."

Since you believe what you stated and the fact that the Pope is infallible, would you do anything he asked you to do?
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Since you believe what you stated and the fact that the Pope is infallible, would you do anything he asked you to do?

You obviously do not understand the meaning of this teaching.

Save yourself from sounding ignorant and read about what this teaching means. In a nutshell the Pope is guided by God on matters of faith when speaking from the Chair of Peter and does not imply the Pope is impecible or infallible himself.

I hope that was easy to understand for all.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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You don't believe this? #13. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions."

Depends...

Scripture speaks of crowns and it speaks of Jesus being king over other kings.

So is this crown a crown that we receive as Saints or is this crown a crown of royalty?

What is the intent of this?
 
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spiritman

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Depends...

Scripture speaks of crowns and it speaks of Jesus being king over other kings.

So is this crown a crown that we receive as Saints or is this crown a crown of royalty?

What is the intent of this?

The intent is to find out why you thought the title of the thread should be changed.

Do you not believe this statment?

#13. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions."
 
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JacktheCatholic

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The intent is to find out why you thought the title of the thread should be changed.

Do you not believe this statment?

#13. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions."

You either wish to know why the title should be changed or to the other question you can tell me what part of my previous post you did not understand.

Thanks
 
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spiritman

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You either wish to know why the title should be changed or to the other question you can tell me what part of my previous post you did not understand.

Thanks

Its a simple question. I answered your question and would like clarification on your position of this statement. Since you are the expert catholic why not tell me what the statement means and your position on it.

#13. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions."
 
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JacktheCatholic

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I have questions regardng this text.

You have not answered those questions.

Also keep in mind that the only surviving document is not the original and not the one used. But for the sake of theological discussion I am willing to humor this discussion further if you can be so kind as to answer my previous questions.

Depends...

Scripture speaks of crowns and it speaks of Jesus being king over other kings.

So is this crown a crown that we receive as Saints or is this crown a crown of royalty?

What is the intent of this?
 
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Tonks

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Not only that...another EENS / unam sanctum thread. Some people find the sound of a broken record compelling, I guess.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Is this to be believed Simon?

As we know the original Bull did not survive and all we have is a copy or rough draft. And even this does not compare to what you have posted.

Here:

UNAM SANCTAM

Transcribed by Bob Van Cleef, from a doctoral dissertation written in the Department of Philosophy at the Catholic University of America
http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_bo08us.htm
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Not only that...another EENS / unam sanctum thread. Some people find the sound of a broken record compelling, I guess.

Especially since Simon has posted on this more than once.
 
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spiritman

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Depends...

Scripture speaks of crowns and it speaks of Jesus being king over other kings.

So is this crown a crown that we receive as Saints or is this crown a crown of royalty?

What is the intent of this?

Sure I'll be happy to.

I don't know what the answer to your question is because the statement was written by the infallible Pope and I thought you would know. Perhaps you could give your expertise on it.

The intent was to know why you wanted to change the title.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Was it written by the Pope? I have yet to see where it was...

Are you basing this on Simon's link? Or do you have additional information as yet not said?

I have posted the Bull as transcribed from 1925 and it fails to include this #13 line that the OP has presented. Seems kind of fishy...
 
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