Pope, King of the world?

[Tu Es Petrus]

what you fail to realize jack is that a tree has branches...the original church might have been the trunk which would establish these branches but the branches exist regardless.....

I'm sure Jack realizes that. To me they are more like branches that fell off the tree.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

I am going to pretend you said that with a little more integrity...

The man who compared the Catholic Church to a watermelon wants to pontificate about integrity?

 

[simonthezealot]

The man who compared the Catholic Church to a watermelon wants to pontificate about integrity?

I said it started from a watermelon seed... Becuse their is NO papacy proof going back to the 1st and 2nd century.
Whatever...I was speaking to jack anyway, I don't much care for your approach therefore don't really care to converse with you...

 

[&Abel]

I'm sure Jack realizes that. To me they are more like branches that fell off the tree.

the catholic church is so incredibly similar to the jews with the gentiles that I wouldn't be surprised if its actually become a weed

thats not to say all catholics are not christians but equating the pope with god is evil and false and makes catholics respecters of men

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

your display pic alone is proof of your idolatry of a man

The banner in his siggy also says a lot [goes to turn off "show siggies" ehehehe]

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Vigilius, a big heresy proponent, bullied and politically schemed his way to Pope, then when he became Pope willingly and fully denied the heresy as a heresy.
It's not challenging his free will; it's enlightening him.

 

[Rick Otto]

Can a person be enlightened against his will?
Can an enemy of God become a believer?
Same thing.
Wills are only "free with purchase".

 

[WarriorAngel]

Furthermore I can NOT for the life of me see how you guys can look the other way in this regard...It astounds me, don't you desire to SEEK truth?

I did - I found it.
Are you telling me that i have it wrong because you disagree with the Church?

Basically simon - just because you confirm that you disagree - still doesn't mean you are correct.

Seriously warrior, doesn't change? You believe that??? really?
I am gonna start a thread on the many changes of the catholic church over time just to show you HOW far you missed the boat by not studying her history with an open mind.

And simon - do you think I dont know what I am talking about when i say that?

DO you think i didnt study the early Church in order to be certain it is the same?

I have - and painstakingly so.

And so i can say without an inkling of doubt - that the Church is who she has always been and that is the Church to whom Jesus established the keys upon Peter.

No other church has that.

None.

What you could do - if you choose - would be to read the ecf writings from the perspective of the Church and not someone seeking to find some way of discrediting her.
It will make more sense reading it from the perspective of the Church.

You know how I am simon. Right?

You know i can and will find umpteen hundred or so quotes and writings of the ecf's to back me up.
Right? You know i can...
Just waiting for your agreement.

 

[&Abel]

thats complete bs...catholic doctrine is so far from what jesus taught(and we have access to those same original documents) even those letters from clement and barnabas etc that are not considered scripture by protestants which testify to that

 

[&Abel]

and it has continually changed and become more false as time has gone on

 

[WarriorAngel]

your display pic alone is proof of your idolatry of a man

What does that mean?
Please explain...what idolatry of a man is..

Why did Lot bow before an angel?
Honor and veneration of the Angel's worth according to God.

Why do we have images around us of everything from ducks to elephants to Christ to Angels...?

Not idolatry - but rememberance of the things we want to think on.

The Pope and using his pic isnt idolatry. Anymore than an image of a mouse is idolatry.

 

[&Abel]

The Catholic doctrine of the Communion of Saints teaches that this work of cleansing or sanctification does not have to be done entirely by the person directly concerned, since all Christians, living and dead, are united as a single body that has Christ as head. The holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus through the communion of saints, recourse not only to the merits of the saints in heaven but above all to those of Christ himself lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.[6]
In view of the power of binding or loosing granted by Christ, the Church considers that it may administer to those under its jurisdiction the benefits of these merits in consideration of prayer or other pious works undertaken by the faithful.[3] This the Church does for individual Christians, not simply to aid them, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.[7]
There is a common misconception that indulgences forgive sins, however, they only relieve the punishment due because of the sins, a person is still required to have their sins absolved by a priest to receive salvation.


[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] is this seriously?


I can't even believe the self righteous garbage this human institution has placed upon itslef

 

[Uphill Battle]

Has not happened in 2,000 years so I trust it will not happen any time soon.

oh? you're privy to the inner workings of the minds of all the so called popes over the last 2000 years?

interesting.

 

[&Abel]

Since those who have died are also members of the communion of saints, it is the belief of the Catholic Church that the living can help those whose purification from their sins is not yet completed not only by prayer but also by obtaining indulgences for them.[8] Since the Church on earth has no jurisdiction over the dead, indulgences can be gained for them only per modum suffragii, i.e. by an act of intercession.[3]

An indulgence may be plenary or partial, according as it remits all or only part of the temporal punishment that at that moment is due for sin.[9] To gain a plenary indulgence, a person must exclude all attachment to sin of any kind, even venial sin, must perform the work or say the prayer for which the indulgence is granted, and must also fulfil the three conditions of sacramental confession, Eucharistic communion and praying for the intentions of the Pope.[10] The minimum condition for gaining a partial indulgence is to be contrite in heart: on this condition, a Catholic who performs the work or recites the prayer in question is granted, through the Church, remission of temporal punishment of the same worth as is obtained by the person's own action.[11]

 

[&Abel]

these doctrines completely distract from the spirituality of our faith and try to put physical limits on the spiritual

 

[&Abel]

Actions for which indulgences are granted

There are four general grants of indulgence, which are meant to encourage the faithful to infuse a Christian spirit into the actions of their daily lives and to strive for perfection of charity. These indulgences are partial, and their worth therefore depends on the fervour with which the person performs the recommended actions:

1. Raising the mind to God with humble trust when performing one's duties and bearing life's difficulty, and adding, at least mentally, some pious invocation.
2. Devoting oneself or one's goods compassionately in a spirit of faith to the service of one's brothers and sisters in need.
3. Freely abstaining in a spirit of penance from something licit and pleasant.
4. Freely giving open witness to one's faith before others in particular circumstances of everyday life.[14]

Among the particular grants, which, on closer inspection, will be seen to be included in one or more of the four general grants, especially the first, the Enchiridion Indulgentiarum draws special attention[15] to four activities for which a plenary indulgence can be gained on any day, though only once a day:

1. Adoration of Jesus in the Eucharist for at least half an hour.[16]
2. The pious exercise of the Stations of the Cross .[17]
3. Recitation of the Rosary or the Akathist in a church or oratory, or in a family, a religious community, an association of the faithful and, in general, when several people come together for an honourable purpose.[18]
4. Piously reading or listening to Sacred Scripture for at least half an hour.[19]

A plenary indulgence may also be gained on some occasions, which are not everyday occurrences. They include:

• Receiving, even by radio or television, the blessing given by the Pope Urbi et Orbi (to the city of Rome and to the world) or that which a bishop is authorized to give three times a year to the faithful of his diocese.[20]
• Taking part devoutly in the celebration of a day devoted on a world level to a particular religious purpose.[21] Under this heading come the annual celebrations such as the World Day of Prayer for Priestly and Religious Vocations, and occasional celebrations such as World Youth Day.[22][23]
• Taking part for at least three full days in a spiritual retreat.[24]
• Taking part in some functions during the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity including its conclusion.[25]

so what happens if during my half hour required eucharist I get a call and have to go and its only been 29 minutes? do I get credit for that 29 minutes which I can then make up at the next eucharist?

 

[&Abel]

Because of the great demand from associations that their favourite prayers, devotions, places of worship or pilgrimage, their processions and meetings, be enriched with indulgences, there was a tendency to forge documents declaring that such indulgences, sometimes of extraordinary character, had been granted. Indulgences were attached to many works that were not only good but also served the common good, both religious and civil: churches, hospitals, leprosaria, charitable institutions and schools, and also roads and bridges.[29]
The later Middle Ages saw the growth of considerable abuses, such as the unrestricted sale of indulgences by professional "pardoners"[3] (quaestores in Latin), who were sent to collect contributions to the project. In many cases the preaching of these, out of ignorance or shrewdness, went far beyond dogmatic truth; some of them even dared to promise that the damned would be released from hell. Permission began to be granted to Catholic kings and princes, particularly on the occasion of Crusades, to retain for themselves a rather considerable part of the alms collected for the gaining of indulgences. The most well-known and debated question is the indulgence granted for building the new St. Peter's Basilica in Rome.[29]

 

[Rick Otto]

What does that mean?
Please explain...what idolatry of a man is..

Why did Lot bow before an angel?
Honor and veneration of the Angel's worth according to God.

Why do we have images around us of everything from ducks to elephants to Christ to Angels...?

Not idolatry - but rememberance of the things we want to think on.

The Pope and using his pic isnt idolatry. Anymore than an image of a mouse is idolatry.

That depends on the context. What's his name displays all the symptoms.
Why did the angel tell John not to bow before him?
God says not to use the images. Best not to ask any of us why you have them & expect to like the answer.

 

[Trento]

The Catholic doctrine of the Communion of Saints teaches that this work of cleansing or sanctification does not have to be done entirely by the person directly concerned, since all Christians, living and dead, are united as a single body that has Christ as head. The holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus through the communion of saints, recourse not only to the merits of the saints in heaven but above all to those of Christ himself lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.[6]
In view of the power of binding or loosing granted by Christ, the Church considers that it may administer to those under its jurisdiction the benefits of these merits in consideration of prayer or other pious works undertaken by the faithful.[3] This the Church does for individual Christians, not simply to aid them, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.[7]
There is a common misconception that indulgences forgive sins, however, they only relieve the punishment due because of the sins, a person is still required to have their sins absolved by a priest to receive salvation.


[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] is this seriously?


I can't even believe the self righteous garbage this human institution has placed upon itslef

Catholics are a bunch of dummies huh.

I don't have the time to cover the complete list here but these passages form the biblical basis for priestly absolution (forgiveness), and broadly speaking, for both papal and Church jurisdiction (by extension, for the power to impose penance -- binding, retaining -- and to grant indulgences -- loosing, forgiving). Matthew 16:19 was spoken by our Lord to St. Peter alone, and is the primary foundation for the concept of the papacy (along with the preceding verse). Matthew 18:18 and John 20:23 were directed toward the twelve disciples. From these verses, among others, the Catholic Church deduces the power and governing jurisdiction of the bishops (in agreement with the pope), especially in an ecumenical Council such as Trent or Vatican II.


Matthew 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matthew 18:18 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.

St. Paul in his commands and exhortations to the Corinthians is in entire agreement with the Catholic tenets of penance and indulgences. He binds in 1 Corinthians 5:3-5 and looses in 2 Corinthians 2:6-7,10, acting as a type of papal figure in 2 Corinthians 2:10, much like St. Peter among the Apostles. He forgives, and bids the Corinthian elders to forgive also, even though the offense was not committed against them personally. Clearly, both parties are acting as God's representatives in the matter of the forgiveness of sins and the remission of sin's temporal penalties (an indulgence).

1 Corinthians 5:3-5 I have already pronounced judgment in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. {see 5:1-2}

2 Corinthians 2:6-8,10-11 For such a one this punishment by the majority is enough; so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him . . . Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive . . . in the presence of Christ, to keep Satan from gaining the advantage over us; for we are not ignorant of his designs.

 

[&Abel]

you don't even understand the scripture you post and I don't have the patience to go through it all only to have you ignore what I say anyways