Pope, King of the world?

[Tu Es Petrus]

hmmm.... just had a a thought.

I've been told by Catholics in the past that God NEVER violates our free will.

is that an accurate statement?

following this, let's say that a Pope wakes up one morning, perhaps on the wrong side of the bed, perhaps he had a bit too much sleep, or not enough.

but he decides to teach something, that is in fact, an error.
but he can't, because of the Charism.
would that then, be a violation of his free will?

Thats like the old "Can God make a rock big enough that he can't lift it" question. A pope can't decide to teach an error Ex Cathedra.

And besides that: What kind of a moron would want to do that anyway?

 

[Uphill Battle]

Tu Es, the point isn't that he WANTS to teach error, just that he wants to teach something that HAPPENS to be error.

and no, it isn't anything like the illogic rock question.

the assertion is "HE Can't, because the HS won't let him" Which, if I'm not mistaken, a violation of free will.

 

[simonthezealot]

Off-topic, I know, but I kinda figured you and some of the other usual suspects on here were active in anti-Catholic research.

Quote from Elliott's book:

The writer of these pages...believes firmly, that the system of popery, as taught in the standards of the Church at Rome, as enforced by the clergy, and as believed and practised by the great body of Romanists, clergy and laity, is at variance with the pure religion taught in the Bible... (Dilineation of Roman Catholicism by Charles Elliott, p. 5)
​

What a great source to learn about real Catholic teaching.

All true HONEST reformed born again Christians who align to scripture should say this as well...Surely you don't like it...But it is speaking truth nonetheless.
You follow the council of trent and oppose our teachings because of the anathemas listed, what difference does it make that this person like me is in DIRECT opposition to the unscriptural teaching taught at rome...Trent calls me a heretic afterall....

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

Tu Es, the point isn't that he WANTS to teach error, just that he wants to teach something that HAPPENS to be error.

and no, it isn't anything like the illogic rock question.

the assertion is "HE Can't, because the HS won't let him" Which, if I'm not mistaken, a violation of free will.

1) Do you believe in free will?

2) If so, did God violate the free will of the writers of the Gospel when he inspired them to write?


At any rate: I don't think God violates the pope's free will any more than he violates ours when the Holy Spirit prompts us to do God's will.

 

[simonthezealot]

Off-topic, I know, but I kinda figured you and some of the other usual suspects on here were active in anti-Catholic research.

CORRECTION: not anti-catholic----Try----anti-false teaching!
Truth mongers POLO its about spreading truth...
Unam sanctum may be the MOST offensive UNSCRIPTURAL lie ever perpetrated under the guise of infallible teaching.

And Romes view is shown to be consistent by placing the pope in such a lofty position in; their encyclopedias, their papal coronations, and their overboard veneration given to the head bishop.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Well that settles it. Only when he sits in the "Chair of Peter". What ever that's supposed to mean. When does he get to sit in the chair? Is that the chair where everyone comes to kneel before the "servant of servants"?

When he has to 'feed the sheep - feed the lambs'
Just as Jesus required of him.

Answer me this: "how did the Judains priests understand the 'Chair of Moses'?"

As the Chair of authority.

Question: Did Jesus ever tell us to ignore that Chair?

Answer...

The term "Chair" (Cathedra) denotes authority:

Matthew 23:1-3: "Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them."

This is a great passage because it demonstrates authority, and it also shows that even though scoundrels may have sat on the Chair of Moses, and even though we have had a few scoundrels on the Chair of Peter, Jesus still expects people to respect their authority, if not always the men themselves.

(Its not an actual chair <<rolls eyes>>)

No kidding! But you see Jack said that "only when he is in the chair of Peter" does he begin to be infallible.

So how do you define when he's in or out of the chair?

When Jesus told him to feed His sheep and His lambs - He was referring to leading them and obviously keeping them where they should be.

And as such he is the teacher whereas Jesus left him in that position.

IF the shepherd doesnt feed the sheep what happens to them?
They will die.

If they die - then they have no more life.

So to have life - they must be fed.

SO how does the shepherd according to Christ 'feed' the sheep and lambs?

By instructing them in order to save them and give them life.

When the Pope sits in the Chair of authority - he is feeding the sheep and instructing them of the ways of God in order to save them.

BUT to make this clear the Pope will write or say 'I define...'

 

[MaxP]

CORRECTION: not anti-catholic----Try----anti-false teaching!
Truth mongers POLO its about spreading truth...
Unam sanctum may be the MOST offensive UNSCRIPTURAL lie ever perpetrated under the guise of infallible teaching.

And Romes view is shown to be consistent by placing the pope in such a lofty position in; their encyclopedias, their papal coronations, and their overboard veneration given to the head bishop.

 

[simonthezealot]

I know if I wanted to learn about the real teachings of another faith, I'd buy books that are called something like "Calvinism Sucks" by Jack Handy.

Oh and you think trent treats us any different than "Elliott" does you?

 

[WarriorAngel]

CORRECTION: not anti-catholic----Try----anti-false teaching!
Truth mongers POLO its about spreading truth...
Unam sanctum may be the MOST offensive UNSCRIPTURAL lie ever perpetrated under the guise of infallible teaching.

And Romes view is shown to be consistent by placing the pope in such a lofty position in; their encyclopedias, their papal coronations, and their overboard veneration given to the head bishop.

Interestingly enough - you really really should read my cut and paste you held issue with.

I mean - really really read them.

What was interesting to note was the ones the Church had to remonstrate then were saying the same being said today.

The more things change - the more they stay the same.

But the Church - regardless of opinion - carries on - and on thru the ages where new doctrines might come to most - but is resisted in the Church.

Thank goodness we have a Church..who like God - doesn't change.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

hmmm.... just had a a thought.


I've been told by Catholics in the past that God NEVER violates our free will.

is that an accurate statement?

following this, let's say that a Pope wakes up one morning, perhaps on the wrong side of the bed, perhaps he had a bit too much sleep, or not enough.

but he decides to teach something, that is in fact, an error.

but he can't, because of the Charism.

would that then, be a violation of his free will?

Has not happened in 2,000 years so I trust it will not happen any time soon.

 

[simonthezealot]

CORRECTION: not anti-catholic----Try----anti-false teaching!
Truth mongers POLO its about spreading truth...
Unam sanctum may be the MOST offensive UNSCRIPTURAL lie ever perpetrated under the guise of infallible teaching.

Furthermore I can NOT for the life of me see how you guys can look the other way in this regard...It astounds me, don't you desire to SEEK truth?

 

[simonthezealot]

Thank goodness we have a Church..who like God - doesn't change.

Seriously warrior, doesn't change? You believe that??? really?
I am gonna start a thread on the many changes of the catholic church over time just to show you HOW far you missed the boat by not studying her history with an open mind.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Seriously warrior, doesn't change? You believe that??? really?
I am gonna start a thread on the many changes of the catholic church over time just to show you HOW far you missed the boat by not studying her history with an open mind.

The Catholic Church is like the mustard seed that took root and grew and became a tree. It is still the same Christian Church established by Jesus through the Apostles but it has grown.

*Ancient Christian secret.

 

[simonthezealot]

*Ancient Christian secret.

I think you mean *Ancient Catholic misinformation.

 

[simonthezealot]

The Catholic Church is like the mustard seed that took root and grew and became a tree.

I thought you agreed that it was first a watermelon seed but then around the time of Leo the great, some sort of oak tree was transplanted in the watermelon patch?

 

[MaxP]

Has not happened in 2,000 years so I trust it will not happen any time soon.

Vigilius, a big heresy proponent, bullied and politically schemed his way to Pope, then when he became Pope willingly and fully denied the heresy as a heresy.
It's not challenging his free will; it's enlightening him.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

..and then around the time of Luther Bibles were transplanted from Christ's Church into the hands of raving Sola Scriptura lunatics.

Wouldn't you say there were plenty of lunatic Christians even before the Bible was canonize and heck, even after it was Canonized......

Matt 16:27 For is being about/mellei <3195> (5719) the Son of the Man to be coming in the glory of the Father of Him with the messengers of Him and then He shall be paying each according to practice of him.
Matt 16:28 Amen I am saying to ye [*that] are any/some of the ones standing/esthkotwn <2476> (5761) here whoany not no should be tasting/geuswntai <1089> (5667) of death till ever may be being seeing the Son of the Man coming in the Kingdom of Him. [Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27]

 

[&Abel]

what you fail to realize jack is that a tree has branches...the original church might have been the trunk which would establish these branches but the branches exist regardless(and are an essential part of the tree)

the root is the jews, the trunk is the first church and now we are the leaves on the branches feeding(justifying the existence) of the roots and trunk

the past is dependent on the future and the future is dependent on the past

 

[simonthezealot]

..and then around the time of Luther Bibles were transplanted from Christ's Church into the hands of raving Sola Scriptura lunatics.

I am going to pretend you said that with a little more integrity...

Love the words of gutenberg
"Religious truth is imprisoned in a small number of manuscript books which confine, instead of spread, the public treasure. Let us break the seal which seals up holy things and give wings to Truth in order that she may win every soul that comes into the world by her word no longer written at great expense by hands easily palsied, but multiplied like the wind by an untiring machine." - - - Johannes Gutenberg, ca. 1455.

 

[&Abel]

http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/apocrypha_nt/episaps.htm

from the Epistle of the Apostles:

29 But all they that have offended against my commandments and have taught other doctrine, (perverting) the Scripture and adding thereto, striving after their own glory, and that teach with other words them that believe on me in uprightness, ie they make them fall thereby, shall receive everlasting punishment. We said unto him: Lord, shall there then be teaching by others, diverse from that which thou hast spoken unto us? He said unto us: It must needs be, that the evil and the good may be made manifest; and the judgement shall be manifest upon them that do these things, and according to their works shall they be judged and shall be delivered unto death.

37 Then said we unto him: Lord, teach us what shall come to pass thereafter? And he answered us: In those years and days shall war be kindled upon war; the four ends of the earth shall be in commotion and fight against each other. Thereafter shall be quakings of clouds (or, clouds of locusts), darkness, and dearth, and persecutions of them that believe on me and against the elect. Thereupon shall come doubt and strife and transgressions against one another. And there shall be many that believe on my name and yet follow after evil and spread vain doctrine. And men shall follow after them and their riches, and be subject unto their pride, and lust for drink, and bribery, and there shall be respect of persons among them.

And we asked him: Lord, shall such things be among us? And he answered us: Fear not; it shall not be in many, but in a few. We said unto him: Yet tell us, in what manner it shall come to pass. And he said unto us: There shall come forth another doctrine, and a confusion, and because they shall strive after their own advancement, they shall bring forth an unprofitable doctrine. And therein shall be a deadly corruption (of uncleanness), and they shall teach it, and shall turn away them that believe on me from my commandments and cut them off from eternal life. But woe unto them that falsify this my word and commandment, and draw away them that hearken to them from the life of the doctrine and separate themselves from the commandment of life: for together with them they shall come into everlasting judgement.

I thought this may have been sola scriptura at first but now I'm thinking its the doctrine of indulgences