Pope Francis says atheists can do good and go to heaven too!

[gord44]

Are you saying there is a place?

Of course. It's possible for sure. (a conscious afterlife)

 

[awitch]

It was suggested that Catholics are not tolerant of atheists; and that society could improve. Are you suggesting being Catholic is the same as being a Christian?

Like LoAmmi, I declare that they are by sharing the belief that Jesus is lord and personal savior. Again, are you suggesting Christians should not tolerate atheists?

 

[toolmanjantzi]

Like LoAmmi, I declare that they are by sharing the belief that Jesus is lord and personal savior. Again, are you suggesting Christians should not tolerate atheists?

I should not tolerate sin. As for sinners, I believe the church should preach the gospel to them. That would include me also. Atheism, is said to be without belief. So, I would assume atheist don't believe they are sinners, like you and I. Secondly, if we are talking about tolerating atheist that are being good; can they actually be atheist? You need a Moral Giver to set the standard of Good and Evil. So, what is good if your an Atheist? Obviously not the good that is set by God, that the Catholics believe in; that would make you a follower of Catholicism.

 

[awitch]

I should not tolerate sin.

To what extent do you feel justified in stopping other people from sinning?

Secondly, if we are talking about tolerating atheist that are being good; can they actually be atheist?

Of course. I'm terrified by the fact that you even ask such a question.

 

[dlamberth]

Yes, because tolerance equals love. Maybe we should be tolerant of everyone and everything, then we can live in euphoria.

Or...not tolerate anyone whose beliefs are different so that than we can always live in hate.

.

 

[gord44]

Or...not tolerate anyone whose beliefs are different so that than we can always live in hate.

.

That's the weird thing. toolmanjantzi seems to imply that tolerating unbelief somehow equates to tolerating all sorts of evils.

 

[toolmanjantzi]

To what extent do you feel justified in stopping other people from sinning?

I can't stop people from sinning. What made you assume I had that kind of power?

Of course. I'm terrified by the fact that you even ask such a question.

Terrified? my words mean nothing. Fear God.

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. (Luke 12:5 KJV)

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear...

Feels good to feel like you have power, right, be it real or imagined.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Pope Francis has good news for atheists. Jesus died and was raised for them as well. His redemptive embrace was for all, not just a chosen few.The choice to accept its reach is our own. The Holy Father was not teaching anything new. In fact, this hope that all who do not yet know God are not only capable of doing good - but will progress toward that knowledge of God by doing good - is ancient. The Church wants all men and women to be saved.

Specifically, Francis said that as human beings created in the image of God, everyone has a “duty to do good.” And he later started advocating that even atheists were redeemed - and many took it to mean that atheists are saved regardless.

“The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists,” he said, answering his own query. “Everyone! And this blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the blood of Christ has redeemed us all!”
​

Many have been accusing him of universalism. However, what the Pope is saying really is that even those who do not believe can move closer to the acceptance of their redemption by good acts moving their heart to the truth. He is not saying Christ is optional - for redeemed and Saved are different...and the media likes to take things out of context. To me, Francis was only affirming the doctrine that Christ redeemed the whole world. Whether people accept that belief is another matter. History wise, it is interesting to consider how many are trying to attack the man when it's the case that popes going back to Leo XIII in 1891 and up through John Paul II–not to mention authoritative texts from the official Catholic Catechism and the Second Vatican Council – have said the exact same thing Francis did.

In doing further research on the matter, I came across some good resources that seemed to clarify a lot of things.

• What Did This Pope Really Say – Are Atheists Redeemed By Good Work?

• Did Pope Francis Really Say All Atheists are Redeemed? - Strange Notions

When I studied up on the issue, it seemed the Pope was advocating that all men - being made in the Image of God - are capable of Good Works and are called to do them, whether saved or unsaved. And that even those who are atheists will be judged based on doing according to what they knew to do - much as the Apostle Paul noted in Romans 2 with how those without the Law become a law unto themselves and how others were judged based on where they were at. Rather than universalism (as many accused the Pope of), it seemed his views were more closely alligned with Inclusivism - in the same way President Obama is an Inclusivist ( more on that in #18 /#70 / #136 ).

• Did Pope Francis Preach Salvation by Works??

The last comment by Francis - where he said "Do good because in the end we will all meet one another there” - comes to mind when it comes to inclusivism, a la the end to C.S. Lewis’ The Last Battle, in which Francis essentially adopts Aslan’s statement that all good deeds are rendered in the name of Christ, regardless of whether the doer is a Christian.

A scripture that came to mind on the issue:

I John 2:1-2
2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
​

And when it comes to the general redemption of mankind, it seems Romans 5:18-19 can be used to support this idea:

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.”
​

I think it makes sense to note that we can distinguish Christ's redemptive work from the acceptance of salvation...as the Lord redeemed the whole world and yet many will reject that saving work. Ultimately, IMHO, in affirming the universality of Christ’s redemptive work, one doesn't automatically endorse being universalists...and to say that he redeemed the whole world is not to conclude that all will be saved.

 

[toolmanjantzi]

Or...not tolerate anyone whose beliefs are different so that than we can always live in hate.

.

Why do you hate?

 

[gord44]

Why do you hate?

 

[toolmanjantzi]

Feels good to feel like you have power, right, be it real or imagined.

Ask, God. His words.

 

[dlamberth]

Why do you hate?

I Love, which gives me not only tolerance, but also acceptance.

 

[toolmanjantzi]

I Love, which gives me not only tolerance, but also acceptance.

Then accept the words of God as He laid out in His scriptures. Accept, the way He chose for you to read and hear the gospel. Learn to not tolerate sin, but pray that all sinners come to repentance. And above all accept that Jesus is Lord.

Now, tell me about your Love again.

 

[dlamberth]

Then accept the words of God as He laid out in His scriptures. Accept, the way He chose for you to read and hear the gospel. Learn to not tolerate sin, but pray that all sinners come to repentance. And above all accept that Jesus is Lord.

Now, tell me about your Love again.

I totally and completely accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ which I know as being Love, Compassion and Service to those in need.

And like Christ, I accept whom Jesus prayed to as my Lord.

And, I accept all other spiritual traditions with Love and Understanding.

.

 

[awitch]

I can't stop people from sinning. What made you assume I had that kind of power?

Because you said you could not tolerate sin.

Terrified? my words mean nothing.

Agreed.

Fear God.

My deities don't threaten me.

 

[dlamberth]

Fear God.

Sorry, I'm unable to fear whom I Love!!

.

 

[toolmanjantzi]

Because you said you could not tolerate sin.

Agreed.

My deities don't threaten me.

Why would they?

 

[toolmanjantzi]

Sorry, I'm unable to fear whom I Love!!

.

So you don't accept all beliefs.

 

[awitch]

Why would they?

You know how other gods can be...."worship only me or you'll suffer for all eternity later".