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Pope Francis backs same-sex civil unions

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by Frankl, Oct 21, 2020.

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  1. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Separation of church and state.

    A rule ordained by God, as he has his hands on all our laws. Many Christians don't like it, but it stands up for what you are saying.

    We all have to live on the planet, and the state's job is to keep the peace and allowing equal rights is the only way to make that happen. Otherwise we would be forcing beliefs, or taking away free will, something God is very much against.

    The pope here is basically following God ordained rules. However, we should make no mistake in that God doesn't like it that there are homosexuals, any more than his children do, so him setting up rules as such, far from means he condones homosexuality.

    In all fairness, I don't believe the pope ever said he condoned either the union, or marriage, but I'd guess he realizes this is just the way it has to be.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2020
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  2. Quartermaine

    Quartermaine Well-Known Member

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    isn't the other side demanding respect for what we find hateful and bigoted?
     
  3. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Decadence has always been a virtue to the world. Nothing's changed there.

    What we need to ask is if ignoring damnable sins inside the church while condemning those outside the church strengthened Christianity in any way, or if doing so has led to its decline.

    When there's no difference between the world and the church what does it profit God?

    Let there be a difference between us and the world, and let that difference shine... that's what brings people to Christ...
     
  4. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Dissident

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    Since when was it the state's job, from a Christian perspective, to provide equality? This is simply applying liberal American political doctrine to Christian practice and is no way the historical norm or practice of the Church or any theory of Christian Statecraft. It owes more to the enlightenment than it does to the bible or any theological reasoning.

    I get if you want to say this is the better system (though I disagree), but it is not one derived from Christianity.
     
  5. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's all I'm saying... :)
     
  6. Ananias

    Ananias Member

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    This. Give them an inch, they'll take a foot. Give a foot, they'll take a mile. Someday you're going to be taking communion of bacon and grapejuice from the genderqueer Muslo-Taoist High Pajandrum with purple hair, with xer non-binary temple attendants waiting to sacrifice an infant to celebrate, and you'll wonder, "How on earth did we end up here?"

    This is how. By giving up ground one inch at a time.
     
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  7. Ananias

    Ananias Member

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    Yep. The older I get, the more I think I would have sided with the Tories in the American Revolution.
     
  8. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Since they started implementing it.

    What do you think they should do?
     
  9. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I figured. :)
     
  10. Ananias

    Ananias Member

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    The State, properly constituted, has only one job: to provide security and order to the citizens such that they can carry out their lives in relative peace and safety. That's it. It's not the government's job to make people "happy" (an impossible task for any government).
     
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  11. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Dissident

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    In a Christian society's of the past the decadence we have today would have been scandalous. They never made a virtue of sexual decadence, that's why it was mostly kept secret and out of the public view. Now we celebrate and encourage child actors to twerk and get half naked for the elation of pedophiles everywhere and this is defended by our elites.

    You ask an interesting question and it is perhaps answered by Paul. He didn't hesitate to call idols, idols. He didn't hesitate to point out the flaws of the roman system even if he was subtle about it. There are reasons why he did this, probably so as to not deliberately antagonize the society around him. If a Christian in the second century, in a fit of anger spat at an Idol, he was liable for punishment within his own community. This wasn't for the sake of the idol but the community because that sort of behavior only drew attention and needlessly martyred oneself. If however you were asked to sacrifice to Caesar's idol, you had a choice and the choice was clear.

    Here we have the Pope deliberately encouraging states to tolerate homosexuality in the form of secular legitimization of the relationship. He does this, despite it being a mortal sin. Now does anyone actually believe Pope Francis thinks it's a mortal sin? As a Spiritual Father to millions, this action essentially sanctions what Catholic doctrine has called intrinsically disordered. There is no reconciliation here, there is no reasonable explanation that allows for both positions. Here you have a clear and distinct contradiction and Francis (like he has with China) has seceded moral ground to sin.

    Popes before him would have been offended at the notion of kowtowing to secular governments like this.
     
  12. Quartermaine

    Quartermaine Well-Known Member

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    if you are talking about the Greek word arsenokoites claiming it is well known or even translated is what is laughable. No one knows what it means and over the years it's been interpreted to mean everything from kidnapping to masturbation. Outside of the bible there are just over 90 known occurrences of the word and in none of those cases can it be construed to mean homosexual.

    Dan Wallace doesn't do anything to show that arsenokoites translates as a variant of homosexual other than to say some other people have said it and i want to believe them. Which is a really sad defense of the translation
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2020
  13. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Doing that can make people happy, and some unhappy...so goes life.
     
  14. Ananias

    Ananias Member

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    Can you name a higher authority who has a better translation? If not, why do you think he's wrong? [EDIT]Paul probably coined the word himself, from "arsen" (man) and "koite" (bed, esp. marriage bed). He was likely drawing from Leviticus 18 and Leviticus 20. His meaning was specific, and he probably created the word to put emphasis on the concept he was trying to get across. Like θεόπνευστος (theopneustos, God breathed) in 2 Tim 3:16.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2020
  15. Quartermaine

    Quartermaine Well-Known Member

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    please cite the chapter and verse of Leviticus saying there is a division in the law
     
  16. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Dissident

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    Provide justice and maintain law and order. Talk of equality is essentially communist in leaning and idealistic.
     
  17. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When you deny gay people the same civil rights as everybody else, that is an injury to a person's dignity, if not also to their material needs such as the ability to access social resources.
     
  18. Quartermaine

    Quartermaine Well-Known Member

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    Mark 8:5-13
     
  19. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you think that peace and safety should only belong to those who share your faith?

    I think its the job of government to make sure all those under their protection have the same peace and safety, so long as they aren't harming anyone.
     
  20. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Dissident

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    There is no dignity in homosexuality. Sorry to tell you this.

    But I'm not advocating any physical harm to anyone, so you can move on with your redefinition of words. It's clear you don't tolerate others as much as you think you do.
     
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