Pope Francis backs same-sex civil unions

[FireDragon76]

Affirmation of sinful behavior is sin.

In the US we live in a society bound by secular, not religious, laws. Thomas Jefferson made it clear to the Emir of Tripoli that the US is not founded upon Christianity or any other religion.

 

[FireDragon76]

Human nature is eternal,

An assertion without evidence.

 

[Strathos]

Traditional Catholics should just all become Sedevacantists at this point.

Why not Protestants?

I truly thought that this was a joke or over exaggerating a press release of some kind.

Then I looked at the news...

Can they excommunicate the Pope?

I know that they are about to have a civil war within the ranks.

IIRC there were once two Popes at the same time who excommunicated each other.

 

[Ananias]

In the US we live in a society bound by secular, not religious, laws. Thomas Jefferson made it clear to the Emir of Tripoli that the US is not founded upon Christianity or any other religion.

Thomas Jefferson fathered six children with his African-American slave maid, so I wouldn't hold him out as any kind of moral arbiter.

 

[JohnDB]

Not likely, since Catholics in the US and Europe support gay marriage more than mainline Protestants do.

Most likely this is about the Pope being sensitive to the genuine sensus fidelium (sense of the faithful).

No they don't.
I've been to Europe...
Catholic there resemble American Protestants and evangelicals in practice.
American Catholics tend to be "odd man out" in the way they practice their faith.

That's why I'm really surprised at this.

Of course there are a ton of nominal Catholics all around the world...just like in America.

 

[Ananias]

No they don't.
I've been to Europe...
Catholic there resemble American Protestants and evangelicals in practice.
American Catholics tend to be "odd man out" in the way they practice their faith.
nominal Catholics all around the world...just like in America.

Central Europe is far more religiously conservative than Western Europe. They are to Europe what the Midwest and South are to the United States. Just ask a Polish or Hungarian Catholic what they think about this....

As an Anglican, I can only look on in sorrow because we went through this back in the late 1990's with the Episcopal Church in America and CofE in England. That particular catastrophe is still unfolding. (Thank God, literally, that GAFCON/ACNA provided a haven for us.)

Maybe the center of gravity in Catholicism, as with Protestantism, will shift to Africa. African Christianity has its problems, but it is a far more vibrant and orthodox faith than anywhere in the northern hemisphere at this point.

 

[JohnDB]

Central Europe is far more religiously conservative than Western Europe. They are to Europe what the Midwest and South are to the United States. Just ask a Polish or Hungarian Catholic what they think about this....

As an Anglican, I can only look on in sorrow because we went through this back in the late 1990's with the Episcopal Church in America and CofE in England. That particular catastrophe is still unfolding. (Thank God, literally, that GAFCON/ACNA provided a haven for us.)

Maybe the center of gravity in Catholicism, as with Protestantism, will shift to Africa. African Christianity has its problems, but it is a far more vibrant and orthodox faith than anywhere in the northern hemisphere at this point.

I was in Germany, Austria, and Slovakia...
I have a friend in Italy I converse with regularly too.

They tend to be very conservative. Sure they go to mass and confession... But otherwise you really wouldn't know the difference between evangelicals and them.

That's why I'm so shocked.

I don't know what they are going to do about this. I know that they aren't pleased in any fashion with this.

 

[jayem]

Thomas Jefferson fathered six children with his African-American slave maid, so I wouldn't hold him out as any kind of moral arbiter.

The Pope isn’t addressing morality from a theological perspective. He’s recognizing that the modern world is very secularized. What religion considers a sin, may be a civil right in a secular society. Believers should realize this, and try not to be overly judgmental.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Why not Protestants?

Well not that far. Though they should seriously consider Orthodoxy.

I'm talking about tolerance, not respect. If you can't adhere to a principle of non-injury to others who have different religious values from you, you are the one being forceful and aggressive.

Whose talking about injuring anyone?

 

[FreedomForever]

That is ridiculous. The exact same problems were present in, e.g., the Corinthian church as there are in Western churches. In fact, they had some even more damnable problems relating to local cults and temple prostitution, etc. And blaming some of this stuff on "mistranslation" of well known Koine Greek words is laughable. Quote me passages you think are "mistranslated", and we'll compare them to Dan Wallace's NET Bible translations. (He is a renowned world expert in the Koine Greek, and also a believer, so he ticks both boxes for Biblical authority.)

Human nature is eternal, what was sinful then is sinful now. We are in no way "higher and wiser" than the Apostles were; in morality, we have regressed.

Local cults and temple prostitution is one of the main contexts in which homosexuality is talked about in the Bible, not independently as it's own thing in the context the world talks about it today and in the context the pope mentioned. There is not one single passage that condemns for example a good and loving family of the same-sex taking care of a child - absolutely not one single verse anywhere in the Scripture can you twist enough to condemn that.

There is a lot to be studied and uncovered there - but not with your attitude of condemnation, sneering down on different opinions (that is what 'laughable' means) and refusing to take a moment and actually study the Bible and its history and its cultures.

 

[Ananias]

Believers should realize this, and try not to be overly judgmental.

It's a terrifyingly short step in going from "Christians must tolerate this" to "Christians must affirm this". If you think the secularists are going to be happy with mere tolerance, you aren't paying attention. There is an assault on Christianity taking place all over the world right now (partly coming from within the church itself). It won't be long before a Christian church will be liable to legal sanction for, e.g., refusing to marry two gay men or to deny ordination to a practicing homosexual.

It's going to come to civil disobedience for Christians, and a lot sooner than you think.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The Pope isn’t addressing morality from a theological perspective. He’s recognizing that the modern world is very secularized. What religion considers a sin, may be a civil right in a secular society. Believers should realize this, and try not to be overly judgmental.

This is a nonsense morality and would ultimately end up with Christians having no say in the secular realm. For the Pope to encourage this sort of thing is even stranger. How can he encourage the secular recognition of mortal sin and be consistent with official Church teaching? This is akin to a gnostic dualism, where our actions are not based on our beliefs.

 

[Ananias]

Local cults and temple prostitution is one of the main contexts in which homosexuality is talked about in the Bible, not independently as it's own thing in the context the world talks about it today and in the context the pope mentioned.

That is incorrect, and I suspect you know that as well as I do. All of the Old Testament strictures against homosexual behavior remain in full effect - they are Moral Law, not Ceremonial Law. And in the New Testament, it is clear in Romans 1:27 that the proscription of homosexual behavior is general, not specific.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Local cults and temple prostitution is one of the main contexts in which homosexuality is talked about in the Bible, not independently as it's own thing in the context the world talks about it today and in the context the pope mentioned. There is not one single passage that condemns for example a good and loving family of the same-sex taking care of a child - absolutely not one single verse anywhere in the Scripture can you twist enough to condemn that.

There is a lot to be studied and uncovered there - but not with your attitude of condemnation, sneering down on different opinions (that is what 'laughable' means) and refusing to take a moment and actually study the Bible and its history and its cultures.

Can you find one positive description of a Homosexual relationship in any Christian literature in the early centuries of Christianity? Let alone a text which sanctioned any such union?

 

[Hazelelponi]

That's like stating we dont share the religios beliefs of, thou shalt not steal, kill, or bear false witness.

This isn't some mild disagreement on theology, we're talking damnable sin here.

Yes but I'm behind the Pope here, from a Biblical standpoint.

1 Corinthians 5:12-13 says, in short, let the church judge the church, God will judge those outside the church.

Civil Unions in most countries entitles those who aren't Christian the same legal advantages that are found in Christian marriages.

And as a Christian we have to examine if its right to make second class citizens out of those outside our faith... which disallowing the same legal advantages does.

I would rather propose removing all legal advantages to marriage, that way the sanctity of the institution be saved, but Christians don't want to part with those legal advantages, and it's wrong to deny legal benefit to any who desire the same.

I think as a whole, we need to recognize the fact Christianity is in decline overall, and how we should go forward as a people with this in mind.

The Pope mentioned civil unions, and as such, I agree with him.

Churches need not teach anything against God's law for God's people, but going forward we aren't the Christian nations we once might have been. God's laws are for His people, it's what separates us from the world, and not something I believe should be imposed, but rather, accepted willingly.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Yes but I'm behind the Pope here, from a Biblical standpoint.

Is that to say you agree to what I quoted?

I was actually only making that one point. The rest, I'll have to decide, but you have some good points I have considered.

 

[Ananias]

God's laws are for His people, it's what separates us from the world, and not something I believe should be imposed, but rather, accepted willingly.

If Christianity is true, then God's laws apply universally to everyone, not just to believers. I get what you're saying, but theologically, you're wrong here. If there is only one God and he is the creator of the Cosmos, then he's everyone's God, not just our God.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Is that to say you agree to what I quoted?

I was actually only making that one point. The rest, I'll have to decide, but you have some good points I have considered.

I agree that it's a sin, yes.

My point of disagreement is that God's law should apply to non-Christian's, by force if necessary.

I disagree with that mentality. God's law applies to God's people, who willingly take upon themselves the Lordship of Christ.

It is to the Church (meaning God's people) to keep the integrity of the church... God will deal with the world accordingly, in His own time. In the meantime, our concern is sharing the message of salvation to the lost, and keeping our own spiritual and scriptural integrity..

 

[Hazelelponi]

If Christianity is true, then God's laws apply universally to everyone, not just to believers. I get what you're saying, but theologically, you're wrong here. If there is only one God and he is the creator of the Cosmos, then he's everyone's God, not just our God.

I agree, but I've seen nowhere in scripture under the New Covenant that God's laws are to be enforced upon the unsaved...

In fact, 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 says otherwise. We should remove the sinner from the church, and allow God to be the judge of them... not that we should enforce the law upon the unsaved when they are unwilling.

The sin of the Corinthian church was just that, spending far too much time in judgement of the world, and not enough time judging themselves. They had it backwards then, just as many seem to have it backwards now.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I agree that it's a sin, yes.

My point of disagreement is that God's law should apply to non-Christian's, by force if necessary.

I disagree with that mentality. God's law applies to God's people, who willingly take upon themselves the Lordship of Christ.

It is to the Church (meaning God's people) to keep the integrity of the church... God will deal with the world accordingly, in His own time. In the meantime, our concern is sharing the message of salvation to the lost, and keeping our own spiritual and scriptural integrity..

How far are you willing to extend that? In all cases or only few? In which case what's the determining metric? I could understand not directly challenging modern societal norms as a strategic goal with the hopes of the long term goal, but not outright supporting the practice of such a thing (while being against it personally).

Why should any Christian, who thinks Homosexuality and a whole host of other sexually deviant practices (prostitution, inappropriate contentography and the like) ever argue from a libertarian political perspective to allow these things? These things which directly undermine Christianity in society? We need only ask, has the legalization of homosexual marriage made Christianity stronger? What about no fault divorce? No, instead society at large is only emboldened to throw away more of it's Christian norms to the point where decadence is a virtue.