Pope Faults Church’s Focus on Gays and Abortion

[benedictaoo]

God made me as I am in my physical state and I don't thank him enough for this privilege.

He made me mortal. You know. The thing about the human heart only having a certain life span until it stops for whatever reason.

Immortality only comes, again, through God's Will in our Spiritual state. Away from our mortal earthbound bodies...

And the physical state He made us all in, originally was not prone to death. In our original state of justice we were immortal. One of the consequences of the fall was death.

Simply put and this is what the Church does teach us officially, when Adam sinned we lost grace and the gifts God gave to us. One was immortality. And not only did we lose grace and gifts, we were given rotten "gifts" from the devil because now the world itself fell and it's his (Jesus said he is prince of this world). The 7 "gifts" are the 7 deadly sins and I hope you know what they are. From these all personal committed acts come.

It's our fallen state and this world with sickness and natural disasters are all because of sin entering through Adam's disobedience.

But like Jesus says, "take heart because I have conquered the world..." Meaning He won God's grace for us. All of these things can be healed and transformed by grace and God allows us many healings, both physical and spiritual. He forgives and heals. A Dr. preforming a surgery is God's healing grace. Tylenol to get rid of a headache is as well. A priest forgiving you in confession is a healing.

Jesus says He made all things new... and when He comes again, He will put His last enemy under His feet which is our mortality.

It is something God did not originally create us to be. We were originally suppose to be immortal living with God face to face. All of God's promises and redemption are not giving to us in this world but the one that is to come. We will be fully transformed and immortal when Jesus comes and there is a new heaven and earth. That is when we will be fully restored to our original state.

 

[benedictaoo]

Benedicta, have I told you lately that I love you? I remember a time when you were a very different person. It isn't often that we get to watch another human being grow and make themselves better. You're kind of inspirational to me.

Awe... But I don't think I'm better. I still have issues and I need to show patience with my fellow human no matter what side of the fence they're on.

 

[benedictaoo]

Now i would like to emphasize something that has been said several times in these discussions and several times quoting the Catechism...
The inclination isnt sinful - but the act is.
That act is based on dwelling on the temptation - fantasies and so forth as well as literally doing the act.

Diabetes is not something we dwell on.
Diabetes is not something we chose or take upon ourselves to have.
We cannot say we are sinners 'due' to acting on diabetes.

Diabetes - often - is outside our control.
In some instances if it is brought on by obesity - it could be an act of losing weight.

However; other variables also exist.
When someone cannot control hypoglycemia - and they gain weight and medications cannot help - then its not always the fault of the person for gaining weight.

I dont believe there is a real comparison here. Sorry.

If you can not see the parallel and analogy...

A kid born with type 1. Not his personal fault at all, he was dealt a hand that not all of us is dealt. He wants to have what all the kids have. A birthday cake that is not sugar free. He grows up, he wants to drink alcohol and eat high carb, deep fat fried foods.

A gay person wants to have a sexual relationship and marriage and kids...

If both indulge in what they can not, what will happen?

Them indulging is a choice, how they were born was not but it's all due to sin entering the world due to Adam's disobedience.

But we look at the type 1 with sympathy and understanding when he slips up and has that cake.

We look at the gay with other eyes. He's a evil person who is on purpose gay just because he hates God.

The pope is telling you, WA, start seeing them through different eyes.

 

[MikeK]

It is quite simply because we call all sympathize with wanting some yummy food. We can't all sympathize with desiring a same-psex partner, so we get to feel better than them. The way they have sex is gross, it's an abomonation, they are too weak to control their sinful desires. But with cake? Well, we all like cake. Give that poor kid a break, it isn't his fault that he couldn't deal with the temptations he was born with and will be dead by 40. He's a victim.

If you can not see the parallel and analogy...

A kid born with type 1. Not his personal fault at all, he was dealt a hand that not all of us is dealt. He wants to have what all the kids have. A birthday cake that is not sugar free. He grows up, he wants to drink alcohol and eat high carb, deep fat fried foods.

A gay person wants to have a sexual relationship and marriage and kids...

If both indulge in what they can not, what will happen?

Them indulging is a choice, how they were born was not but it's all due to sin entering the world due to Adam's disobedience.

But we look at the type 1 with sympathy and understanding when he slips up and has that cake.

We look at the gay with other eyes. He's a evil person who is on purpose gay just because he hates God.

The pope is telling you, WA, start seeing them through different eyes.

 

[steve_bakr]

Oh. So it's hot air. OK. Got it.

Provocative statements don't help. Maybe the rhetoric on both sides can be taken down a notch.

Are you from Avila Beach?

 

[benedictaoo]

Mike,

Because we all can identify with wanting to eat cake but not all of us can identify with having sex with the same sex. But we sure can identify with being tempted to have premarital sex so I guess that's why we can treat them with compassion and understanding because we been there.

I guess all the pope is saying is we need to have empathy for those who commit these sins because empathy is what encourages understanding and that is what encourages compassion.

Isn't understanding one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

 

[MKJ]

If you can not see the parallel and analogy...

A kid born with type 1. Not his personal fault at all, he was dealt a hand that not all of us is dealt. He wants to have what all the kids have. A birthday cake that is not sugar free. He grows up, he wants to drink alcohol and eat high carb, deep fat fried foods.

A gay person wants to have a sexual relationship and marriage and kids...

If both indulge in what they can not, what will happen?

Them indulging is a choice, how they were born was not but it's all due to sin entering the world due to Adam's disobedience.

But we look at the type 1 with sympathy and understanding when he slips up and has that cake.

We look at the gay with other eyes. He's a evil person who is on purpose gay just because he hates God.

The pope is telling you, WA, start seeing them through different eyes.

I think if you follow the posts along, it is pretty clear that is not what is meant by by calling thoughts we are not supposed to be having sinful, or an inclination to be a grumpy person sinful. You are engaging a straw man.

It is exactally same as the usage in the term "original sin". When we say people have original sin, we are not saying they have done anything wrong.

A denial that bad thoughts that we cannot control are a manifestation of sin tends to lead to heterodox theology, as we can see pretty clearly in this discussion.

 

[MikeK]

Mike,

Because we all can identify with wanting to eat cake but not all of us can identify with having sex with the same sex. But we sure can identify with being tempted to have premarital sex so I guess that's why we can treat them with compassion and understanding because we been there.

Yeah, but when we were having premarital sex it wasn't gay and gross, you know. We did our thing, then we got married, made a half-hearted "sorry, God" and get to live a happy life forever. We get to grow out of our oat-sowing, marry and have sex until we are no longer physically able. The homosexuals get the privilage of carrying their cross forever and get the luxury of being teased and reminded that they're sodomites (as if most heterosexual couples are not sodomites in the broadest sense) and so on.

I guess all the pope is saying is we need to have empathy for those who commit these sins because empathy is what encourages understanding and that is what encourages compassion.

Indeedy.

 

[benedictaoo]

I think if you follow the posts along, it is pretty clear that is not what is meant by by calling thoughts we are not supposed to be having sinful, or an inclination to be a grumpy person sinful. You are engaging a straw man.

It is exactally same as the usage in the term "original sin". When we say people have original sin, we are not saying they have done anything wrong.

A denial that bad thoughts that we cannot control are a manifestation of sin tends to lead to heterodox theology, as we can see pretty clearly in this discussion.

So what is the point of this conversation?

Why are the pope's words so troubling to certain people?

He in no way said these things are no longer considered sins. I think he meant we need to stop harping on just those three sins all the time as if no other sin or injustices exist and broaden our horizons.

I so happen to agree with him.

People are killing each other every day, day in and day out for the stupidest reasons... a black person will only care about another black person being killed if he was killed by a white. But if a black person kills another black person, it was justified because he was dishing out his own justice because they do not trust the police or our system... and I can't blame them for not.

We have a really broken world here.

 

[AMDG]

I think many people are upset because they don't want to wait to see that what the Pope said is no different than what the Church has always held. They want to pretend that there is a giant "sea-change" in the Church, when there is not. Some are questioning whether the Pope is indeed Catholic. Others, like NARAL a pro-abortion group, are issuing public "thank yous" to the Pope. IMO, it's what happened after Vatican II that lead to the destruction of altars and sacrilegious experimentation.

 

[mark46]

We can choose to ignore the words of the Holy Father. That is our choice. His message to Catholics (especially in the US) seems clear. And, there has been no change of teaching, just a change of direction with regard to how the CHurch treats people.

Those in the US can choose to ignore the Holy Father and continue to focus almost all their efforts with regard to affecting governmental legislation regarding abortion, rights for same-sex couple and with regard to contraception.

The Holy Father suggests that there are other emphases, other issues that the Holy Father will emphasize.

But I suspect that this teaching will come on deaf ears.
============================================
“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that. But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.

 

[benedictaoo]

People are always going to twist what the popes says to make him sound like he agrees with them.

 

[MKJ]

So what is the point of this conversation?

Why are the pope's words so troubling to certain people?

He in no way said these things are no longer considered sins. I think he meant we need to stop harping on just those three sins all the time as if no other sin or injustices exist and broaden our horizons.

I so happen to agree with him.

People are killing each other every day, day in and day out for the stupidest reasons... a black person will only care about another black person being killed if he was killed by a white. But if a black person kills another black person, it was justified because he was dishing out his own justice because they do not trust the police or our system... and I can't blame them for not.

We have a really broken world here.

I agree with him too.

People have allowed their church to become a tool of political forces. People have been treating their religion as a bunch of rules to follow rather than a way to heal. People treat religion as if it has no coherent center - they think they can get people to follow the rules without believing or understanding the center.

 

[AMDG]

Does this article help?

Cardinal Dolan Clarifies Pope Francis' Remarks on Gay Priests, Reaffirms Church Stance

 

[Michie]

Who's shutting down the conversation?

More amateur dramatics. Please tone it down. This is my second time asking...

Asking what? I'm simply having a conversation & you are choosing to see it as something it simply isn't.

 

[Michie]

I didn't get the impression Mitchie was shocked in the sense of being moraly shocked - like she just saw someone purposfully run over a cat or something.

More surprised that you had never run into that particular teaching before.

Exactly. And thank you.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

I agree with him too.

People have allowed their church to become a tool of political forces. People have been treating their religion as a bunch of rules to follow rather than a way to heal. People treat religion as if it has no coherent center - they think they can get people to follow the rules without believing or understanding the center.

Really? Is that what you see? What a sad church you must attend. I don't see any of that IRL. Want to know where I do see it sometimes? Message boards.

 

[LilLamb219]

MOD HAT ON

Please address the topic and avoid taking jabs at other members. There is a LOT of back and forth bantering that doesn't add to the conversation but is only there for the sake of insult. Stop doing that.

MOD HAT OFF