Pope Faults Church’s Focus on Gays and Abortion

[MikeK]

S, I'm sorry that you're finding yourself bullied by the usual suspects. Keep your chin up, you're handling it well. Always be open to criticism, but always consider the source.

 

[S.ilvio]

Ooooo third time you get your knuckles rapped?

Was that really necessary? What do you feel it added to the thread..?

 

[AvilaSurfer]

What do you think "first time....", "second time...." added?

 

[S.ilvio]

S, I'm sorry that you're finding yourself bullied by the usual suspects. Keep your chin up, you're handling it well. Always be open to criticism, but always consider the source.

Cheers Mike. I have no problem with folk disagreeing with my own view on issues of teaching.

Its the snide, underhand comments and tone that I'll not accept from any quarter, whether that be ultra Right, ultra left of straight down the middle centrist...

 

[S.ilvio]

What do you think "first time....", "second time...." added?

Its an attempt to stop the sham dramatics and condescending tones. Now you should move on as this is of no direct concern to you...

 

[AvilaSurfer]

Cheers Mike. I have no problem with folk disagreeing with my own view on issues of teaching.

Its the snide, underhand comments and tone that I'll not accept from any quarter, whether that be ultra Right, ultra left of straight down the middle centrist...

I'm curious, on a message board, what exactly does that mean? Is that where "This is the second time...." comes in? Is it a threat?

 

[S.ilvio]

I'm curious, on a message board, what exactly does that mean? Is that where "This is the second time...." comes in? Is it a threat?

It is what it is.

I will not be ridiculed by anyone for my beliefs on any message board without the source of the ridicule being challenged and left in no doubt that appropriate action will be taken with forum management if it continues...

 

[Tallguy88]

Cheers Mike. I have no problem with folk disagreeing with my own view on issues of teaching.

Its the snide, underhand comments and tone that I'll not accept from any quarter, whether that be ultra Right, ultra left of straight down the middle centrist...

We've all got issues with certain teachings. At least you're man enough to own up to your beliefs.

 

[MKJ]

It is what it is.

I will not be ridiculed by anyone for my beliefs on any message board without the source of the ridicule being challenged and left in no doubt that appropriate action will be taken with forum management if it continues...

I didn't get the impression Mitchie was shocked in the sense of being moraly shocked - like she just saw someone purposfully run over a cat or something.

More surprised that you had never run into that particular teaching before.

I know quite a few Anglican priests who don't believe in the Real Presence in any sense (alas). But I was once shocked to meet a seminarian just about finished his studies who actually did not know that some Anglicans do believe in the Real Presence.

I am actually not surprised though that you did not encounter this idea before. In my experience is it often not taught at all.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I don't have troubles. Well at least not on this issue.

Your comment regarding correction is arrogant and condescending in the extreme. But not surprising...

You can think as you like, but you were corrected on what the Church actually teaches.
So its not arrogance - it's practical.

 

[S.ilvio]

I didn't get the impression Mitchie was shocked in the sense of being moraly shocked - like she just saw someone purposfully run over a cat or something.

More surprised that you had never run into that particular teaching before.

I know quite a few Anglican priests who don't believe in the Real Presence in any sense (alas). But I was once shocked to meet a seminarian just about finished his studies who actually did not know that some Anglicans do believe in the Real Presence.

I am actually not surprised though that you did not encounter this idea before. In my experience is it often not taught at all.

What gives anyone the impression I've not encountered it before..?

 

[S.ilvio]

Oh. So it's hot air. OK. Got it.

Baiting is another thing I find repulsive. Please refrain...

 

[benedictaoo]

Do they know it though? Judging from what people are saying here, many are objecting to what he has said about this. A few people in this thread and the other one have already come out with the "abortion is the most important issue that we have to focus on" schtick. Or the "yes be nice to people but they need to be trying to do what we say if they are going to seek God with us" schtick.

As opposed to what I take to be the Pope's message, which is that Christ's life and message are the most important thing, and they are what can be truly transformative, and that power stands to be obscured by the focus on political issues.

People know these things are immoral and wrong but they do them anyway. It's when a person as an encounter with God then begin to change. I guess the pope is saying that that's what we need to show people. But how do you do that? I have no idea. Live true yourself and be a good example and that example does not necessarily have to be one of preaching condemnation every five seconds to the sinners. We're all sinners in one way or another.

What's odd to me is why don't we go around and preach hell fire to all the murderers with that same kind of conviction? I live in a very high crime place where murders and street violence are the common place and people die everyday at the hands of others but their hands weren't clean themselves. They all live really, really bad sinful lives.

I guess the pope means there is sin everywhere in all kind of shapes and forms, focus on the forgiveness and mercy and giving people a hope that they can have a better life and stop it with the hell fire.

 

[benedictaoo]

So then I ask you the same question I asked eastcoast (which he has avoided answering thus far): Would you agree that baptism should be refused to the child of an unmarried couple? Because it's essentially the same situation.

NO it should not be and anyone who thinks that it should be is stupid.

 

[benedictaoo]

I'll go back to the fact that the priest must be sure that the child will be brought up in the Faith before agreeing to baptize. And so I would expect the priest to postpone the baptism of the child until he somehow feels assured. And I would expect the priest to start marriage preparations (or offer it) if it was a couple who requested the baptism. (Obviously, there could be no marriage if the "couple" were same-sex.) In that case, I would expect the request for baptism to be definitely postponed.

Remember, it is not baptism alone that saves--it is baptism and Faith in Jesus. (At the time of baptism, it's the parents who agree to raise the child up to believe in Jesus so both requirements are satisfied.) If the parents are raising the child in the Faith, than the priest will be assured that baptism is right for the child. And of course, the child can always choose baptism for himself when he is of age.

Right but faith begins with baptism. You need to go back to square one and truly understand baptism and its function.

It is first and primarily God's grace of redemption given free of any charge to an innocent person who did not do a darn thing to earn his lot in life. So why on earth would God deny a child this free gift of His redemption because of the sins of the parents?

It is supernatural grace that God does not with hold from anyone because of the sins of someone else... )))Hello((( what do you think Jesus sacrifice was for?

Yeah, one of the conditions of Catholic baptism is to commit to raising the kid Catholic and just like all those folks that go up to the alter for marriage, in their mind they are committed. If its half heartily, so what? And here's why, because it's God's grace infused into that child's soul. The parents sin or lack of commitment has nothing to do with that.

From that grace given to that child, anything can come from it and its between them and God, not anyone else. God can work in that child in spite of every bad break he may get in life.

So what you must be saying his people who have a bad break in life should not be baptized? Or that only the perfect people can receive baptism?

YOU AMDG should know the difference between what an invalid baptism is and one that is illicit. The baptism will still be valid even if the parents are half hearted, it might just be illicit, maybe. And whoever calls themselves a Christian, who would deny a person baptism? There is only one I know who would love to see a person denied baptism. Guess who that is?

 

[benedictaoo]

Well actually the desire is sinful if you think about it. Our thoughts can be sinful and we must guard our thoughts carefully, heterosexuals and SSA-sufferers. The Lord tells us that to desire sex in our hearts with another woman is tantamount to the act itself. Now while I will acknowledge the actually jumping into bed with someone else is the real deal full-on super sin, let's face it, desiring people sexually isn't healthy and is a sinful, impure desire. Father Seraphim Rose proved that it can be overcome through Christ.

The Orthodox famous radio and scholarly personality Father Thomas Hopko has said, "you may be born that way (gay) but thanks to God you don't have to STAY that way!"

Thank goodness we don't have to listen to Father Seraphim Rose or Father Thomas Hopko ... that line of thinking is so messed up... Is it really the EO or is it just you who thinks this?

To have a SSA is not sinful in the committed sense of the word. It's disordered. It's a disordered desire. Not a committed act you are guilty of on your soul. To be born with SSA is not a sin (act) that anyone commits willfully. It's not something they can change either. What they can do is choose not to act out their desires that in a lot of cases (not all) are inherit to them... and us all because we are all born with sin, i.e. desires, we call them vice, the 7 deadly's.

It's all part of being fallen, broken and wounded, having sin, being born with deep wounds we call sin.

And had the Orthodox had a correct understating of Original Sin and the Fall of Adam, and what we inherited from that, you'd know this.

There is a difference between original sin, concupiscence and actual committed sin that you commit with full consent of your will.

Yeah, we are born and all of us are born with sinful vices that will make us prone or tempted to commit acts that are offensive to God. It's not called the fall for nothing. So yeah, we , (not just they) are all born to spiral downward to the lowest depth of depravity but baptism is that grace given to us that turns us around on the right path and there can be an upward pull towards holiness. But we have to accept this grace and strive to be holy.

 

[benedictaoo]

Needing Grace there's an Anglican priest named Mario Bergner who is in recovery from same sex attraction. Maybe he'd be a good role model for you.

In recovery??? Is he an alcoholic?

This is so wrong. He does not need to be in recovery, he simply needs to choose not to have sex with another man (or woman if he is unmarried and a priest for goodness sakes.

If he has impure thoughts then the same rule applies to him that apply to us all. You catch yourself and turn away from them. If you welcome them and persist in them that is one sin. If you keep them up and then they cause you to commit an action that is a grave sin, then, well what we do is we go to confession.

So I guess we all need recovery then... ???

If you want to take a therapy approach to it, then you confess then underlying vice which would be lust and go from there. What we do is we work on developing a virtue opposite to lust which would be purity.

I really do not feel a gay person needs a separate or different recovery from what the rest of us practice. All he or she would need to do is live the same Christian life of grace. We have the sacraments.

Now with that said, applying the 12 steps is for anyone who suffers from obsessions or addictions, including sexual addictions. We really need to get away from thinking this sin of homosexuality is some kind of separate sin from the rest of us. It's really not.

 

[MikeK]

Benedicta, have I told you lately that I love you? I remember a time when you were a very different person. It isn't often that we get to watch another human being grow and make themselves better. You're kind of inspirational to me.

 

[WarriorAngel]

nm