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Cosmowisdom

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All bible versions were derived from translations done in 900 A.D. Now lets assume it has been properly translated since then to around 1500, 1600 when we have complete passages. If you think we have a collection of writings from the bible that date back to when it was written you are a fool, we are talking up to 3500 yrs in copies and translations. I'm going to give you that 600-700 yr span even though today as we can all see everyone still struggles to interpret the writings when it is written in English. We will just assume that that ancient Masoretic text was even properly copied without translation, just correctly copied in it's entirety and original script in that 600-700 yr span. Ok I'm going on to much about something that I'm going to ignore and allow you.
What I truly want to address is the time before 900 A.D. I could go on about the multiple change in the Hebrew, Aramaic and Latin script, I don't need to get into that. I also want to say to keep in mind that the bibles writings began with Abraham around 2000 B.C. and the "final" translations of this collection of writings known as the Pentateuch were done around 450 B.C. by two men Esdras and Daniel, predominantly Esdras. Once again we will assume that the writings received by these men were properly copied and or translated in this 1550 yr span. Why not, I'm going to give you that 1500 yrs also. So we will ignore 2100 or so yrs of primitive mans book keeping, this is not the point I'm making.
The point that really impacts me.... The Jews were held in captivity in Babylon for seventy yrs around 600 B.C. - 500 B.C. surely you already knew this. During this time they lost knowledge of their Hebrew tongue. The ancient Hebrew text consisted only of consonants no vowels, these vowel signs and accentual marks were invented much later by the Masoretic scholars around 600 A.D. another thing I will not discuss.
Two men had retained knowledge of the old Hebrew, Esdras and Daniel. Esdras was asked to revise and translate the first five books of scripture (Pentateuch) this was used by the Masoretic scholars to finish translations 1100 yrs later. Now, we are talking about one man translating from a lost language when today we kill one another over our translations in the same language. Did one man translate properly from a language that was a little fuzzy? This question becomes a monumental question, doesn't it!
Now, with my education of the history of Rome I can see how revelation describes Satan and the Seven- headed Beast and how it can pertain to the Emperor of Rome and it's seven empires, these are known facts in history. I'm going to ignore this as well, and give you Satan as a real and mystical force. The only reason I give you Satan is that I want you to ponder this. I hear all this talk of the power of Satan over man that strays from God. We are looking at thousands of years of translation and copying. We are looking at men of power that held these scripts and writings and had them translated. Never once in these gaping holes in time did Satan influence man to add or change these words to suit his purpose? Never once did the power and arrogance that we know exists in man influence these translations?
Let us take a look at the bible.... Who would desire that God should be feared? Who would make man believe that they are Gods chosen people and cause them to perform mass genocide against all others? Slavery? Rape? Sacrifice? There are contradictions everywhere in the bible. Who would desire the confusion in interpretation that causes us to kill one another throughout the history of man?
The confusion and static that I read has me dumbfounded. Who has your minds all wrapped up confused and twisted, was this Gods plan? Or is it possible it was poor interpretation by man or even the influence of Satan? LOL!
Think, contemplate, educate....... These are the truths that God gives you here and now. The words from God would be so perfect, nobody would ever need to question or argue the interpretation. These words exist within the brilliance of all our minds, it is called love and the truth that is contained within it.
 
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Merlin

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Cosmowisdom said:
All bible versions were derived from translations done in 900 A.D.

I prefer to read in the Hebrew or Greek.
Translations don't matter then.

Now lets assume it has been properly translated since then to around 1500, 1600 when we have complete passages. If you think we have a collection of writings from the bible that date back to when it was written you are a fool, we are talking up to 3500 yrs in copies and translations.

Ever heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls?
They demonstrate that the Bible has been consistent for the past 2000 years.
Why believe it deviated before that?

I'm going to give you that 600-700 yr span even though today as we can all see everyone still struggles to interpret the writings when it is written in English. We will just assume that that ancient Masoretic text was even properly copied without translation, just correctly copied in it's entirety and original script in that 600-700 yr span.

Ever heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls?
They demonstrate that the Bible has been consistent for the past 2000 years.

Ok I'm going on to much about something that I'm going to ignore and allow you.

Generous of you :)

What I truly want to address is the time before 900 A.D. I could go on about the multiple change in the Hebrew, Aramaic and Latin script, I don't need to get into that.

Ever heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls?
They demonstrate that the Bible has been consistent for the past 2000 years.

I also want to say to keep in mind that the bibles writings began with Abraham around 2000 B.C.

And which books were written before Moses?
What did Abraham write?

The ancient Hebrew text consisted only of consonants no vowels, these vowel signs and accentual marks were invented much later by the Masoretic scholars around 600 A.D. another thing I will not discuss.

Yes. With all you share, I assume you know that in the ancient Hebrew language vowels added no value to the word meaning.

Two men had retained knowledge of the old Hebrew, Esdras and Daniel. Esdras was asked to revise and translate the first five books of scripture (Pentateuch) this was used by the Masoretic scholars to finish translations 1100 yrs later. Now, we are talking about one man translating from a lost language when today we kill one another over our translations in the same language. Did one man translate properly from a language that was a little fuzzy? This question becomes a monumental question, doesn't it!

OK, assume there is 100% error.
The Christian puts his faith in Jesus.
These texts are much more recent.

Let us take a look at the bible.... Who would desire that God should be feared?

With all your study, i'm surprised you don't realise the word fear is a poor translation for 21 century english.

Who would make man believe that they are Gods chosen people and cause them to perform mass genocide against all others? Slavery? Rape? Sacrifice?

Another error on your part.
The Bible never directs "mass genocide against all others"

There are contradictions everywhere in the bible.

I disagree.

Who would desire the confusion in interpretation that causes us to kill one another throughout the history of man?

Man has used the Bible for an excuse to do man's desires in God's name. Not God's desires.

The confusion and static that I read has me dumbfounded.

Obviously.

Who has your minds all wrapped up confused and twisted, was this Gods plan? Or is it possible it was poor interpretation by man or even the influence of Satan? LOL!
Think, contemplate, educate....... These are the truths that God gives you here and now. The words from God would be so perfect, nobody would ever need to question or argue the interpretation. These words exist within the brilliance of all our minds, it is called love and the truth that is contained within it.

Since my faith is in Jesus, all your ranting about the OT is rather moot.
 
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Soul Searcher

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Apparently the materials they used to write on did not last very long and it was required that someone copy the text onto new material to preserve it. The people would most likely have been known as scribes.

I find it rather interesting that the scribes were one of those whom Jesus singled out for scorn. I also find it interesting that in the sermon on the mount he was correcting peoples perception on certian issues. Most noteably when he said you have heard it said that you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy but I say to you love your enemy also.

Could this be an indicator that something had been changed through the years, something very very important?
 
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Merlin

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> you have heard it said that you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy but I say to you love your enemy also.

>Could this be an indicator that something had been changed through the years, something very very important?

Or that the common teachings of the day didn't follow the scripture.
 
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mark53

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Soul Searcher said:
Some good points raised in the OP.

I am curious about the comment on the dead sea scrolls, While I haven't really dived into them my understanding is that they are just fragments. Are there any complete texts to compare?

There are many complete texts of these writings. They have also found copies of all O T books except Esther!

In these O T books there are extra Psalms, and extra paragraphs that have been left out since these were copied like in Isaiah and Deuteronomy for a start.
The basic Dead Sea Scrolls are published under many titles. The one I have is called "Dead Sea Scrolls" by Wise, Abegg & Cook. There are others. I am waiting for the O T bible to be published from these scrolls. That will be interesting.

Your local library should have copies of these plus books on who these people are - with various understandings and differences of opinions too!
 
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Athene

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Cosmowisdom said:
And?
So everything in my post is common knowledge?
I wanted to post it in the Christian section but I wasn't alowed.

Well for a start as Rae said, most liberal christians don't believe the bible to be inerrant so in a sense you're preaching to the converted.

If you want to get a good discussion probably best to post in General theology.
 
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Cosmowisdom

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Merlin said:
I prefer to read in the Hebrew or Greek.
Translations don't matter then.
Even then you read the masoretic translation done in 900A.D. that has been copied for yrs.
There have been debates for yrs whether or not the translations were done correctly.
The masoretic scholars used a numeric system, the same we have used, we have put FAITH in the fact that it was done correctly by them.
Theologists have shown other possibilities, they have also shown that verbs can easily have become passive when they were meant to be active and vice versa. This can change the entire meaning of the Bible.

Why believe it deviated before that?
Many reasons why.... The rise of Christianity and the fall of the Roman Empire. This gives rise to a new position of power and mens greed to assert themselves within that power. These new men of power watched an entire Kingdom fall from one mans words. How do you make sure it won't happen again. You make this man into a God to be worshipped in your churches and you instill the fear of God within these people. You eavesdrop on their doings through confession. You warn of false prophets, eliminating individual thought, question or discovery. You stone these so-called false prophets and silence them forever and silence any further question from it's witnesses.

Ever heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls?
They demonstrate that the Bible has been consistent for the past 2000 years.
Consistent for what? Because of Leviticus and Deuteronomy?
The Dead Sea Scrolls are very incomplete portions and they only show us the same translations done by the masoretic scholars. They show none of the thing that "really impacts me."
We are talking the most crucial period with the rise of Christianity.
The Dead Sea Scrolls are dated anywhere from 200 B.C. to 200 and later A.D. These are well after Esdras and well before translations by the masoretic scholars. This shows the translations done by the masoretic scholars nothing else.
 
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Robert the Pilegrim

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Cosmowisdom said:
Even then you read the masoretic translation done in 900A.D.
[]
Consistent for what? Because of Leviticus and Deuteronomy?
The Dead Sea Scrolls are very incomplete portions and they only show us the same translations done by the masoretic scholars.
Do you know what the LXX is?
Do you know what the Copper Scroll is?
[Edit] For some reason I conflated the Copper scroll with the Isaiah scroll.
...While the Copper scroll is very interesting it doesn't bear on this discussion.
Do you know what the Samaritan Torah is?

Do you know what the Coptic version is?
Do you know what the Codex Alexandrinus is?
 
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Cosmowisdom

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Robert the Pilegrim said:
Do you know what the LXX is?
Do you know what the Copper Scroll is?
Do you know what the Samaritan Torah is?

Do you know what the Coptic version is?
Do you know what the Codex Alexandrinus is?
AND..... What exactly is your point, the Masoretic is widely excepted as the most trustworthy.
The
 
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Cosmowisdom

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Robert the Pilegrim said:
Do you know what the LXX is?
Do you know what the Copper Scroll is?
Do you know what the Samaritan Torah is?

Do you know what the Coptic version is?
Do you know what the Codex Alexandrinus is?
AND..... What exactly is your point, the Masoretic is widely excepted as the most trustworthy.
Regardless they all follow the same timeline and rely on ancient Hebrew once lost in Babylon. Translation to Greek, Arameic or ? doesn't really impact the period I speak of.
The Copper Scroll contains Hebrew text unlike any found in ancient Hebrew contained in biblical text.....weird! Another look at the possibility of poor translations done.
The Samaritan is traced back to Esdras, no real mystery there.
 
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Robert the Pilegrim

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Cosmowisdom originally posted:

All bible versions were derived from translations done in 900 A.D.
[]
The point that really impacts me.... The Jews were held in captivity in Babylon for seventy yrs around 600 B.C. - 500 B.C. [] During this time they lost knowledge of their Hebrew tongue.[]
Two men had retained knowledge of the old Hebrew, Esdras and Daniel. Esdras was asked to revise and translate the first five books of scripture (Pentateuch)
Merlin wrote:

I prefer to read in the Hebrew or Greek.
Translations don't matter then.

Ever heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls?
They demonstrate that the Bible has been consistent for the past 2000 years.

Cosmo response:

Even then you read the masoretic translation done in 900A.D. that has been copied for yrs.

Consistent for what? Because of Leviticus and Deuteronomy?
The Dead Sea Scrolls are very incomplete portions and they only show us the same translations done by the masoretic scholars.
I wrote:

Do you know what the LXX is?
Do you know what the Copper Scroll is?
Do you know what the Samaritan Torah is?

Do you know what the Coptic version is?
Do you know what the Codex Alexandrinus is?
Cosmo responded:

What exactly is your point?
That you are either lying or don't know what you are talking about.

Nearly complete manuscripts for many books of the Tenach exist from many centuries before 900 AD that agree with the MT.

We have multiple sources that all indicate that there has been no great deviation since at least the time of Christ.

Cosmowisdom originally posted:

The point that really impacts me.... The Jews were held in captivity in Babylon for seventy yrs around 600 B.C. - 500 B.C.
[]
During this time they lost knowledge of their Hebrew tongue.
[]
Two men had retained knowledge of the old Hebrew, Esdras and Daniel. Esdras was asked to revise and translate the first five books of scripture (Pentateuch)
For someone apparently interested in historical truth you certainly do take a lot for granted.
 
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Robert the Pilegrim

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CaDan said:
Actually, how far back can we go with textual evidence of the Tanakh and the Torah? What are the earliest documents?
I believe circa 200 BCE for relatively complete documents.

The earliest fragment I am aware of, one of the do-hickies* the Jews put over their doorways, on their foreheads and arms dates back to around 700 BCE, just before the captivity.

*no disrespect intended, I just can't remember and I have to go.

Do note that while there are texts agreeing with the MT in the Dead Sea scrolls there are varients as well. There is a great deal of debate about their import. However, AFAIK none of the varients are earth shaking.
 
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Robert the Pilegrim

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CaDan said:
Actually, how far back can we go with textual evidence of the Tanakh and the Torah? What are the earliest documents?
DSS radiocarbon (and caligraphical analysis) dates for the DSS
The Isaiah scroll, which is a common language translation of Isaiah, is dated to around 100 BCE.

There are a couple of other books from the DSS that are dated to about 200 BCE, but most appear to be from 1st Century CE.

Aside from the tefilltn/phylacteries prayer I mentioned, which was Numbers 6:24-26 and dated to the 7th Century BCE I believe the DSS are the oldest.

I note that while the documentary/JEDP hypothesis is now generally considered insufficient to fully explain the authorship of the Torah the fact that so much evidence for it has survived indicates that any copying errors that were made did not make a huge difference.
 
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Cosmowisdom

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CaDan said:
I'm just wonderin' where this "900 AD" date came from.
Translations were done by the masoretic scholars 900A.D. These are widely accepted as the most trustworthy.
As far as deviations are concerned between the Septuigant LXX, Torah (which is directly linked to Esdras) etc;, and the Masoretic. These deviations don't effect the individual reader, however these deviations can effect multiple readers in a vast difference of interpretation. In other words a reader that interprets a passage a certain way and reads it written in a slightly different way is going to say that it basically says the same thing. And we all wonder why there are so many denominations, each one firm that the bible is consistent to their interpretation.
Regardless of what fragment has been found and in what script, I had a single point in my original post that can not be argued, that is the translation done by Esdras around 548 B.C. The Masoretic scholars used these translations as well as _____, each one is linked to Esdras. The Dead Sea Scrolls are dated after this (200 B.C.) as well as most texts. The oldest biblical text was a poem dated to around 700 B.C. and so fragmented it would not give any indication that translations by Esdras were done correctly.
You can today, give two intelligent people the same version of the bible in the same language and their interpretations can be drastically different. But we rely on one man to interpret from a lost ancient Hebrew to a new Babylonian Hebrew. This language was entirely different, words and their meanings can very well have changed drastically. So we rely on the fact that he properly translated and interpreted to this new language. A monumental question.
To answer a question the oldest entire bible text dates to around 1400 and is held in Russia. Anyone that tells you there is an entire text or even a compilation of writings to form a complete text, it is a lie. We have fragments, the Dead Sea Scrolls have portions of Leviticus and Deuteronomy and many non biblical scripts. As far as decifering these we rely on the work that was essentially done by Esdras and continued by the Masoretic scholars.
To sum up verbs can easily, easily, easily be slightly altered or interpreted and become passive when they were meant to be active and vice versa. This changes the entire meaning of the bible, whoever chooses to interpret it today.
The God that consumes all of my existence, I happen to know that if it was "his" words. They would be so perfect, we would not have the diversity of interpretation that plagues this world. The perfection I find in all of existence shows me that "his" words so perfect would bring a unity in man that would conquer any and all opposition.
So caught up in seeing your interpretation of the words you revere as the word of God as correct, you fail to realize the magnitude of other beliefs. So many cultures, so many different religions, so many do not except Jesus as their savior.
Then you have a man that lacks the presence of mind to contemplate...... Hmmmm, suppose I was born under different circumstances. Suppose I was raised without Christianity where another religion was dominant and my life's views on religion were drastically different. Suppose my heart was filled with hate for Christians. Welcome to the real world!
Wouldn't it be arrogant to say that God chose you to interpret "him" correctly? Wouldn't it be foolish to say that God had contempt for another that they were born into a religion that failed to find enlightenment.
Exclusivity in religions is absolutely absurd. If you fail to educate yourself about the beauty contained in other religions, you have failed to see the beauty of mankind; and by doing so you have failed to see the beauty that God instilled within all of us regardless of how we seek "him".
I witness beauty in all religions, many in Christianity.
We all walk different paths with different beliefs, I wouldn't want to believe in a God that didn't except them all. Especially when you realize your beliefs quite possibly could have been drastically different from the ones you adhere to now.
There is a multitude of diverse beliefs that could have in a small twist of fate lived within you. When you were born into this world fresh from God you were a clean slate free of any beliefs. Discover the love and exceptance of God and understand that "he" embraces us all regardless of belief. You might discover in your understanding of all these things that you yearn to once again be that innocent child fresh from God free of any beliefs.
God appears in the truest form as a realization. The unity of man free from belief would allow you to witness this.
If God is truth, truth will find a realization of God without belief. -ME-
 
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