Poll

[Freodin]

Originally posted by Soul_Searcher
A TRUE Christian should love his neighbor as him/her-self, and follow the commandments. Some do, most don't. A TRUE Christian should not judge, but very few don't, most do. A TRUE Christian should sell all he/she has and follow Jesus, live a spiritual life and leave the material behind. How many do?

But really, shouldn't everyone follow the Commandments? (Well, atheists are excused from the first 4.) Shouldn't everyone love their neighbor as themself? Shouldn't we all lead a more spiritual and less material life?

Interesting thought.

How would a more spiritual life look like?

 

[Duane Morse]

I really wonder at the terms "natural" and "supernatural".
IF God was there to create, then it is God that IS the natural.
And we are actually "sub-natural".
So it would be the sub-natural trying to understand the natural, wouldn't it?
God would be the ultimate in natural, something we must evolve to become through the natural processes that God set up.
We, and the universe, are made in Gods image. And that image is the natural thing to God.
Jesus said the kingdom of God is within us. But all we "see" within us are natural processes.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Duane Morse
I really wonder at the terms "natural" and "supernatural".
IF God was there to create, then it is God that IS the natural.
And we are actually "sub-natural".
So it would be the sub-natural trying to understand the natural, wouldn't it?
God would be the ultimate in natural, something we must evolve to become through the natural processes that God set up.
We, and the universe, are made in Gods image. And that image is the natural thing to God.
Jesus said the kingdom of God is within us. But all we "see" within us are natural processes.

I wouldn't put it quite that way, but clearly we are operating within and only perceive a "subset" of what exists. That's why IMO it is foolish to say that science isn't science if it considers the supernatural. If the supernatural exists and science doesn't consider it, then science is very likely coming to a lot of wrong conclusions about how things happen and how things happened in the past. (Obviously, you'd substitute natural for supernatural, etc. according to your suggestion.)

By the way, if one is going to exclude anything but natural causes, a better term would be "natural science" not just "science." See definition 3 below.

Main Entry: sci·ence
Pronunciation: 'sI-&n(t)s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin scientia, from scient-, sciens having knowledge, from present participle of scire to know; probably akin to Sanskrit chyati he cuts off, Latin scindere to split -- more at SHED
Date: 14th century
1 : the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding
2 a : a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study <the science of theology> b : something (as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge <have it down to a science>
3 a : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : NATURAL SCIENCE
4 : a system or method reconciling practical ends with scientific laws <culinary science>
5 capitalized : CHRISTIAN SCIENCE

 

[Duane Morse]

Yes, I was substituting the terms we use everyday. But on the other hand, if God existed prior to the universe that we percieve, then God is the first natural cause.
And thus there could be no "supernatural", because nothing exists outside of God.
And anything within God that is not fully God would be sub-natural, to some extent.
So there could really be no un-natural either, I guess. Just more sub.

 

[lithium.]

if God existed prior to the universe that we percieve, then God is the first natural cause.

God couldn't exist prior to the universe since man made him, man is who started the word god. It didn't exist before we made it. LOL if that makes any since.

 

[Duane Morse]

If man made God you would be correct.
But since God made Man, and the universe, and everything in it, you are not correct.
If that makes any sense.

 

[lithium.]

Yes i understand what you mean, but the only evidence of god making man is in the bible. But humans made all the words that we use today. That also means god.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Duane Morse
Yes, I was substituting the terms we use everyday. But on the other hand, if God existed prior to the universe that we percieve, then God is the first natural cause.
And thus there could be no "supernatural", because nothing exists outside of God.
And anything within God that is not fully God would be sub-natural, to some extent.
So there could really be no un-natural either, I guess. Just more sub.

I agree with you in principle. It would cause a lot of confusion to use those terms, though, which is what I meant when I said I wouldn't have put it that way. "Natural" to most people (at least most here, I would think) implies "material." But here's the m-w def:

Main Entry: 1nat·u·ral
Pronunciation: 'na-ch&-r&l, 'nach-r&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin naturalis of nature, from natura nature
Date: 14th century
1 : based on an inherent sense of right and wrong <natural justice>
2 a : being in accordance with or determined by nature b : having or constituting a classification based on features existing in nature
3 a (1) : begotten as distinguished from adopted; also : LEGITIMATE (2) : being a relation by actual consanguinity as distinguished from adoption <natural parents> b : ILLEGITIMATE <a natural child>
4 : having an essential relation with someone or something : following from the nature of the one in question <his guilt is a natural deduction from the evidence>
5 : implanted or being as if implanted by nature : seemingly inborn <a natural talent for art>
6 : of or relating to nature as an object of study and research
7 : having a specified character by nature <a natural athlete>
8 a : occurring in conformity with the ordinary course of nature : not marvelous or supernatural <natural causes> b : formulated by human reason alone rather than revelation <natural religion> <natural rights> c : having a normal or usual character <events followed their natural course>
9 : possessing or exhibiting the higher qualities (as kindliness and affection) of human nature <a noble... brother... ever most kind and natural -- Shakespeare>
10 a : growing without human care; also : not cultivated <natural prairie unbroken by the plow> b : existing in or produced by nature : not artificial <natural turf> <natural curiosities> c : relating to or being natural food
11 a : being in a state of nature without spiritual enlightenment : UNREGENERATE <natural man> b : living in or as if in a state of nature untouched by the influences of civilization and society
12 a : having a physical or real existence as contrasted with one that is spiritual, intellectual, or fictitious <a corporation is a legal but not a natural person> b : of, relating to, or operating in the physical as opposed to the spiritual world <natural laws describe phenomena of the physical universe>
13 a : closely resembling an original : true to nature b : marked by easy simplicity and freedom from artificiality, affectation, or constraint c : having a form or appearance found in nature
14 a : having neither flats nor sharps <the natural scale of C major> b : being neither sharp nor flat c : having the pitch modified by the natural sign
15 : of an off-white or beige color
- nat·u·ral·ness /-n&s/ noun
synonyms NATURAL, INGENUOUS, NAIVE, UNSOPHISTICATED, ARTLESS mean free from pretension or calculation. NATURAL implies lacking artificiality and self-consciousness and having a spontaneousness suggesting the natural rather than the man-made world <her unaffected, natural manner>. INGENUOUS implies inability to disguise or conceal one's feelings or intentions <the ingenuous enthusiasm of children>. NAIVE suggests lack of worldly wisdom often connoting credulousness and unchecked innocence <politically naive>. UNSOPHISTICATED implies a lack of experience and training necessary for social ease and adroitness <unsophisticated adolescents>. ARTLESS suggests a naturalness resulting from unawareness of the effect one is producing on others <artless charm>. synonym see in addition REGULAR

 

[Duane Morse]

3 a (1) : begotten as distinguished from adopted;

I guess that would make Jesus the only truly natural man.

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by seesaw
yeah but then you have to say who made god, and who made the whatever that made god, and so on.

You can say whatever you want to say. I just say that the universe has a blue print, a design. It was all planed out ahead of time. You can see that in DNA, which was discovered by atheist's. The human body has a blue print.

 

[Duane Morse]

Seesaw, men made up the words for the concepts, I grant you. But just because the only evidence of God making Man is in the Bible does not mean it is false. Not all Truths are evident in every writing. and not every writing contains all Truth. Some contain more than others, some none at all.

 

[lithium.]

Originally posted by Duane Morse
Seesaw, men made up the words for the concepts, I grant you. But just because the only evidence of God making Man is in the Bible does not mean it is false. Not all Truths are evident in every writing. and not every writing contains all Truth. Some contain more than others, some none at all.

Ok the story about the easter bunny, and santa claus with flying raindeer, is real also right. Since santa claus had raindeer does that mean its true no. Or the easter bunny with his eggs. But the bible falls in the same place, its a book that was writen before people even knew that the world was round. Just cause it has the word god in it doesn't mean its real.

Santa Claus with his flying raindeer, the easter bunny, GOD, and other things. Are in the same category. Since there is no evidence of these things that means there isn't any proof of them right now. But hey if there ever is any i will believe then.

 

[Duane Morse]

Oh, there is evidence and proof. People just do not look, and if they look it is not with understanding.
And the Bible even tells us where to look.

 

[lithium.]

Like i said no evidence. What kind of evidence huh? I have never seen any. Nor any evidence that has been accepted by science or any evidence at all.

 

[Arnold_Philips]

seesaw, if I were to tell you the world was round (whereas you believed it was flat) and I showed you pictures taken from space and gave you various testimonies of those who have been there and all other kinds of evidence, you would still not believe me unless I took you up in a shuttle and forced you look out the window. but we have no shuttle.

 

[lithium.]

Well I know the world is round, As there is evidence of the world being round. But when it comes to god there is no evidence.

 

[Arnold_Philips]

I never doubted your knowledge of the earth's roundness, seesaw.

 

[lithium.]

yeah i know

 

[Gregersonsalvage]

How can the worl be created by a big bang from something physically the size of a basketball. ALhtough we figure at one point there was a lot more antimatter. Not everything can at this point be explained by natural proccess. Not everything can be disproven. Not every bible has been disproven. Not every theory has been proven. I think that is really mans true nature. Our goal is to disprove god but in finding that we can't we develop the technology to do so. Believers will continue to poke holes in the theorys we develop. But that is good because that leaves more questions for us to find answers to. My theory is that the secret to life. Is to find the answer to every question you or someone else asks you.

 

[lithium.]

Well there is a theory that is being worked on right now called unified field theory (the theory of everything) a lot of physicist believe we will have it finished soon but i don't mean tomorow, i mean in probably 10 or 15 years. It will probably be almost an inch long of numbers and symbols.